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I generally don’t instigate discussions that are outside the agenda outlined in my profile, however, knowing that CR is a great avenue to broadcast your messages to the public, I’ve decided to use the opportunity to post my opinion on the following subject, hoping to hear what others have to say about this:
President Trump has recently approved of the annexation plan of Bibi Netanyahu, which would entail PA authority over uncontrolled territory parts of Israel, including Judea and Samaria in exchange for granting Israel annexation over unofficial lands occupied by Israel.
Several Rabbonim have already come out with a strong opposition to the plan, warning of the negative repercussions it will have on the State of Israel. True, there have been many rabbonim in the past that approved of peace plans, however, we have seen in hindsight that such concessions have proved fatal to the security of Israel.
We’ve SEEN what happened because of the Camp David accords and the terrible ramifications that it entailed.
We’ve SEEN how Israel handed over Gaza to the PA as part of the Cairo Accords – the same Gaza which has now become a hotbed of terrorism; a country that absorbs all of Israel’s concessions, and then spits it back right onto all there buildings and citizens in the form of air to surface missiles and deadly bombs, wreaking havoc on Israeli society for the past 45 years.
All along, the Lubavitcher Rebbe continuously stressed that these political transactions would have a detrimental effect on the lives of thousands of Israelis, telling Prime Ministers Yitzchak Shamir,Menachem Begin, Ariel Sharon, and Yitzchok Rabin in private audiences (yechidus), what would happen as a result, if these transactions went through. Each one of them conceded that, had they followed the Rebbe’s advice, they could have avoided much bloodshed.
Let’s not make a repeat of history! In the past, it was a matter of faith to many of Israel’s ministers whether to listen to the Rebbe or not, but now it is a matter of FACT. Tangible fact, the we can see (and actually have seen) with our very own eyes.Does anyone have anything to say? I’m open to hear your opinions….
Eretz Yisroel Ayno Hefer… Gevalt!
1. Which rabbonim, specifically (names, please), have allegedly come out on the record to oppose the Trump peace plan?
2. What so-called “terrible ramifications” have the Camp David accords entailed?
3. Hagaon HaRav Eliezer Menachem Shach and Chacham Ovadia Yosef, among other Gedolei Yisroel, are on the record as supporting giving the Arabs land for peace.
The Arabs did before us
Biden is likely to support a return to the pre-1967 borders, and at this point the likelihood is that next January, Biden will be president, with the Democrats controlling the Senate. The Israelis should try to get the best deal they can muster. The Palestinians know this, and have every reason to be supper stubborn, on the assumption that within a year Israel will be cut off from American aid and subject to sanctions for holding on to the West Bank.
akuperma: While you’re right that the probability is that they’ll be a change of power next year in the Oval Office (I’m not as sure as you regarding the Senate), nevertheless, if Israel implements the American peace proposal this year, with the full backing and support of the United States in annexing large portions of the West Bank, a Pres. Biden will be in no position to penalize Israel for doing what it did with U.S. backing.
The annexation proposal is not so simple. When I first heard about it, I was excited. Israel would extend its complete sovereignty over its own land. Sounds nice. (I won’t broach the issues that underlie the shittoh of the Satmar Rov ZT”L.)
But part of this deal is that Israel relinquishes its role in the rest of the West Bank and allows it to be dominated by the PA. That is a huge problem. As things are today, the PA does not have ownership of any land, and are basically Israeli subjects with a different status that grants them limited autonomy. Increasing that autonomy is problematic.
The opinions of the Gedolim or yesteryear about land for peace were correct. But that turned out to be ineffective. Anything granted to Palestinians turns into increased terror. Gaza is a single example that the world can see. But there have been countless other concessions by Israel, and not a single one went unpunished with a spike of horrible terror attacks.
This issue is a dilemma, and with all the political ranting about it, it boils down to seeking the lesser of the evils. What we do know without doubt is that the Palis do not want peace at all. Nor do they want the land. They just want to take it away from Jews.
Edited
Defend Chabad: is there an alternative plan being discussed or proposed? As far as I can tell, the only plan anyone in power ever tried to implement is the two-state solution. The only difference between the different politicians from the left and the right are the borders. The left wants to give away more and right less.
Every time anyone on the right proposed an alternative idea – transfer (Rabbi Kahane), make them Jordanians (Avigdor Lieberman), make them Israelis (Yoram Ettinger); the idea is immediately quashed and everyone returned to the two state solution.
So if the only game in town is the two state solution you may as well get yours while the getting is good.
besalel: You didn’t address the possibility or advisability of maintaining the status quo.
joseph: the status quo is unfair to the Arabs. We have evolved as a society to a point where it is almost universally agreed upon that people should be able to chart their own government by way of vote. This is a basic human right. We do not believe that anyone should not have the right to vote and “Palestinians” do not have that right. That’s not fair. The Arabs should be able to vote for their government just like any other free person. If someone subscribes to the view that they must remain in the land then they must be given a vote.
Joseph:
Unless the US is bound by a treaty approved by 2/3 of the Senate, any Trump agreement ceases to be meaningful on Jan. 20. Note the Paris Climate Accords, NAFTA (which was a treaty), etc. Also, aid to Israel is approved annually. And Biden’s “base” sees Israel has a pirate state (similar to Apartheid era South Africa) so expect similar sanctions. Remember these are the guys who approve of vandalizing a shul in Los Angeles since a policeman in Minneapolis fatally beat up someone – bigots don’t need logic, and we should be wary.
besalel:
You have a point. But the logic is refuted by fact and history. The same Arabs that you seek to give the privilege of voting want to destroy the state. They prove this over and over again, so this is not just some racist thinking. It’s pure experience. The Arabs actually have members int he Knesset. Look at their track record. They are engaged in constant acts of treason and support terror. And they have their vote. I admit there is no easy answer to this. But to offer your enemies the weapons with which they will destroy you is at least as stupid. Israel has enough enemies outside its borders. None inside are needed.
the little i know: my point was not that the arabs need to stay and have a vote – it is that if they stay, they get to vote – even if that means that voting will result in a state that is totally different from the one that exists now (or as you describe it, they are destroying the state).
Let us pretend for a moment that a 95% majority of Israeli Jews woke up tomorrow and decided that they wanted to change the law in Israel and they elect leaders that pass a law that effectively razes the Kotel to the ground r”l and in its place, builds a giant mosque. Would you then say that Israeli Jews no longer have the right to vote?
My point is that in a democracy, so long as you work through the legal channels, the law is supposed to reflect the will of the voters. The fact that the Arabs’ will is far different from yours cannot be the only reason they do not get to vote. At least not ethically.
So you need to either give them a vote (and let them destroy your country), give them a state of their own or figure out a way for them to vote somewhere else. And that may even be true of the Israeli Arabs.
The only solution ever seriously considered in Israel is giving them a state. That is not something I decided, that is a simple fact. So if that is your only option then best better do it on Trump’s terms before you will have to do it on Ahmad Tibi’s terms.
I saw a mekubal said it won’t happen because moshiach will be mevatel it (iyH)
besalel:
I am not against the two state solution in theory. I am afraid of it for practical reasons, and here is where experience speaks loudly.
* The Palis do not really want their own state. They want Israel’s state.
* The Palis lack the ability to govern anything. There is a huge body of history to this. Nothing got better for them when Israel granted them autonomy.
* The Palis are approaching the entire subject with a unique attitude. They feel that they are entitled, and that Israel owes them something. They feel they should get whatever they want just because they want it.
* The Palis have become adept at wearing suits, speaking clearly, and pretending to be sophisticated. But they are not more than the cat that was trained to serve as a waiter. These are dedicated terrorists who do not deserve the dignity of diplomacy. It is futile to conduct any negotiations with them. They have an almost perfect record of lying and breaking all commitments.
* Israel took this land from Jordan when it was attacked. The Palis did not exist as an entity. They have no history prior to the labeling by Yasser Arafat y”sh.
* Giving them a sovereignty just legitimizes their having a military, and that will be used for terror and violence, not defense.
* The same animals that you suggest should have a state are sworn to an agenda of wiping Israel off the map. They teach it to their children, and they divert monies away from their economy and citizens to terror.Now, you still want to push the two state solution? On paper, it’s sensible. On the ground, it is a powder keg. I have not discovered anyone there that can be trusted.
The little I know: I don’t think you’re reading my posts. I know there are many reasons to be against an Arab state. I can give you a few dozen more reasons that you missed. But the right never offers any alternative. Ok, you don’t like the two state solution. Fine. So what is the plan? The right has never pushed a different idea.
“And Biden’s “base” sees Israel has a pirate state”
That is a lie. Biden’s base is pro-Israel and one reason he defeated Bernie Sanders is that that anti-Israel crazies all jumped on the Bernie Sanders bandwagon. Interestingly, Sanders himself opposes BDS and has taken grief for supporting Israel’s right to defend itself when attacked. But Biden is the clear choice this year for any pro-Israel voter.
There are really only two alternatives:
1) A Palestinian State alongside a Jewish State.
2) One state covering the entire former Palestine Mandate, with all Jews and Arabs getting voting rights. The way the numbers work now, about 1/3 of the Knesset would be Arab is Israel were to properly annex all the territories (annexation requires giving citizenship and voting rights to all persons living in the annexed areas).I will support whichever of these alternatives Israel want.
Defend Chabad: Very Very well said and very very true
The plan by enemy Pres Trump is to strangle Israel in a “choke hold” while Israel says “I can’t breathe”. Trump is able to do this because the current haskafa allows the cursed exile to be blessed by the biased leadership. The Torah obligated us to live in Israel. The end result of this is enemies are strangling our true home is being burnt and destroyed by terrorists. As soon as you open up a Chumash Eretz Yisrael becomes the central land, so if you are true to Torah, you pick up and go there. Since millions have not, Arab terrorists live there instead……So USA Presidents can scheme to strangle and the happy complacent exile Jew has himself to blame. The situation for nationwide pogroms has never been riper. As soon as one Jew does a “Derek” act on an unarmed black man, no identifiable Jew will be safe from a nation of angry mobs. Then afterwards all will look to leave as EVERY other exile in the history of our people. A Jew who banks on this exile being different than all the others, will eventually be “bankrupt”, in money, safety, and in Torah. You can make a difference by moving to Israel to Yehuda and Shomron. Even renting there. …….walk the land that Abraham, Yitzchak, and Yaakov walked and let go of the American idol. Its a morally and financially bankrupt distraction from Torah that will end up as all exiles do, it is written and cannot be avoided. Get out before it explodes and the fragile pacifist exile bubble is burst and the chain of 3500 years is ripped in pieces by Floyds friends
Every person is entitled to an opinion. However, if one expects their opinion on this matter to be considered seriously, one must fulfill two conditions.
1. Live and work in the country that will have to deal with the ramifications of this opinion.
2. Read the pertinent facts and nuances in the local Hebrew press and Hebrew media, and not from translations in the American media.Has any commenter above fulfilled these conditions?
Rational: Are you saying that anyone living outside Germany or not fluent in the German language was not entitled to have a serious opinion regarding the Nazis assuming power and enacting the Nuremberg Laws in 1935?
Comparing Medinat Yisrael to Nazi Germany is the kind of nonsense I hear only from the most extreme nutjobs on the nutty far left. When did you join IfNotNow or JewishVoiceForPeace?
Charlie: You missed the point. I thought you were smarter than that. Replace the Nazi example with having a serious opinion about the Soviet Union, Communism and Stalin despite not living in the USSR and not knowing a word of Russian.
But part of this deal is that Israel relinquishes its role in the rest of the West Bank and allows it to be dominated by the PA.
No, it doesn’t. That is the great thing about this plan, that makes it different from every previous proposal. If Israel accepts it, it gets to apply Israeli law to a significant area now, unconditionally and permanently. In return all the Arabs get is a promise that if they come to their senses within the next four years, Israel will negotiate with them in good faith about a state for them. If they don’t agree to such negotiations within the next four years the deal is off, and Israel will be free to do whatever it likes with the remaining, still-administered territories.
(annexation requires giving citizenship and voting rights to all persons living in the annexed areas).
No, it does not. People keep saying it does, but there is no law that says it has to. If they want to be citizens somewhere, let Jordan give them citizenship, or let them move somewhere they can be citizens. But no country allows aliens to vote. The USA has millions of aliens who live here and pay taxes and must obey the law, but don’t have the right to vote, and nobody sees a problem with that. And often they can’t vote in their country of citizenship either, because that country doesn’t allow absentee voting. Or because they’re stateless persons. Or because their country of citizenship doesn’t have elections. Nobody thinks that gives them a right to US citizenship or to vote in the USA.
Israel can offer the residents a chance to apply for naturalization, but in any country one basic requirement for naturalization is a clean criminal record, and not having political beliefs that are contrary to the loyalty a citizen owes his country. So any Arab who has supported or committed terrorism, or has disputed Israel’s legitimacy, can be barred from naturalization.
Hamas’ base in Gaza which Israel handed over to them in 1969.
Say what?!
Since we are on the subject of Me…
Thank Gd Bernice Sanders is out, not just because of his distorted views and terminology international wise in partivular , and his choice circle of “friends” a few in particular. Still, as Jew, we get blamed. No matter what. Just like the NeoNazis use G. Soros despite Soros being such an ardent anti-Zionist and financing anti-Israel ‘NewIsraelFund’ NIF
DC, Israel did not hand anything over to Hamas in 1969! Israel did not hand anything to anyone in 1969. And it has never handed anything to Hamas. You’re just saying crazy things.
Milhouse,
With all due respect they handed over Gaza during gush katif albeit indirectly
Everyone knew it would happen
Uhh.. have you ‘oticef that we don’t really ‘own’ p’aces like ramala or shechem or Chevron and will not until moshiach comes? What r u gonna do w the million arabs that live here? Do you plan on forcefully kicking them into the sea?
Wake up , genius. The Arab occupied areas are here to stay until further notice by the One Above. In the meantime the smartest thing Jews can do is formalize our hold on whatever placed Jews live in in order to prevent expulsions a la aza in the future.
Being Messianic before the Messianic era is a very dangerous and idiotic way to live. I’m not satmar but they do have a point (albeit way way way overstated) that you can’t force the geula.
Be practical. Whatever part of ey Hashem has given us to live in is a tremendous brocha. How bout appreciating that?
And appreciate that you have a true אוהב ישראל who is trying to work w Bibi and assumes Israel’s rights to ארצינו הקדושה and is doing something to cement those rights in realpolitik
where does it say in the Torah that we cant give land away exactly? because as far as im concerned, there are/were plenty of very big rabbonim no less great than the lubavitcher rebbe ztz”l that were PRO giving away land
Asimpleyid
I guess you aren’t lubavitch
Reason being to a Lubavitcher everyone that was around (or even more so someone that still is around) isn’t on the same level (and for sure not greater) than the rebbe
Defend chabad
Sorry I didn’t write it clearly
I meant from the generation of the rebbe and on
So my post should have read (sorry for the error)
Reason being to a Lubavitcher everyone that was around (in the rebbes generation) (or even more so someone that still in a generation after the rebbe) isn’t on the same level (and for sure not greater) than the rebbe.”
Just wondering
What about the Baal Shem Tov (you didn’t write him)
Coffee Addict, you need some more coffee. Israel did not give anyone anything in 1969.
And no, when it gave Gaza to the PA nobody had any idea that Hamas would stage a coup there more than a year later.
BY1212, we certainly do own those places. How can you say we don’t? Even if we don’t control them (and for decades we did, so there’s no reason we can’t do it again) they’re still our property. They were our property throughout the years when various thieves and occupiers controlled them, and they will still be our property no matter who will control them in the future until Moshiach comes. The Arabs are squatters there, nothing more.
And the prohibition on giving away land from which it will be easier for the enemy to attack us, should they choose to do so, is an explicit and undisputed halacha in Shulchan Aruch, so those rabbis who held otherwise were wrong.
Every military expert agrees that giving these areas away will indeed make us more vulnerable. Even those who support it admit this, but say that the risk is worth taking for the sake of the promise of peace. If the Arabs are no longer our enemies, and decide not to attack us in the first place, then it won’t matter how vulnerable we are, and we’ll be safer than if we kept the land and they remained enemies.
But the halacha says explicitly that we are forbidden from taking this into account. We must make our calculation assuming that the enemy will attack, and consider whether control of this area will make a difference in that eventuality. If it will be of no use to them in an attack, then we may give it away (at least as far as Hilchos Pikuach Nefesh is concerned) but if it will be useful to them, as every serving military expert says it will, then we must not only not give it away but we must fight to keep it, even though fighting inherently involves risk to life. We cannot allow the country to be vulnerable to a potential attack, even from those who promise not to attack us.
Considerations of Kedushas Ho’oretz, Lo Sechoneim, and our lack of right to give away that which Hashem has given us, are all secondary, because they’re all subject to pikuach nefesh. (Except according to the Ramban, who holds that mitzvas kibush ho’oretz applies nowadays, and it’s obvious that that mitzvah overrides pikuach nefesh. This is why the zionist rabbonim oppose giving away land in all circumstances, even if pikuach nefesh demands otherwise. But the Lubavitcher Rebbe didn’t hold like the Ramban.)
And milhouse,
“And no, when it gave Gaza to the PA nobody had any idea that Hamas would stage a coup there more than a year later.“
What did they think would happen? Hamas would just drop their guns and sing cumbaya?
“Coffee Addict, you need some more coffee. Israel did not give anyone anything in 1969.“
Milhouse,
I was replying to this part of your statement
“And it has never handed anything to Hamas. You’re just saying crazy things.“
“And no, when it gave Gaza to the PA nobody had any idea that Hamas would stage a coup there more than a year later.“
What did they think would happen? Hamas would just drop their guns and sing cumbaya?
Everyone thought the PA would remain in charge. Nobody at the time expecfed the Hamas coup. Probably not even Hamas.
DC, what on earth are you talking about? There is no such thing as “the Cairo-Jericho accords”, and in 1969 Israel did not give anyone anything.
“No, it does not.”
You just proved you don’t know what annexation means. The US gave automatic citizenship to all residents of annexed territory eight times in the 19th century — even when they had been fighting the Uae just months earlier. There are lots of other examples. An annexation that does not grant the Arabs citizenship and voting rights is not annexation. That is why neither East Jerusalem nor the Golan are part of Medinat Yisrael.
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