Saying Mashiv HaRuach in the Southern Hemisphere

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  • #1401929

    slominer
    Participant

    Shouldn’t saying Mashiv HaRuach and Vesein Tal Umatar in the Southern Hemisphere (e.g. Australia, Brazil, South Africa) logically follow the local seasons?

    Summer begins in October, so praying for rain in the Southern Hemisphere at the same time as the Northern Hemisphere does, seems counterproductive.

    #1401971

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Your question isnt limited to the southern Hemisphere.
    I live in a city. I nor anybody around me wants rain at any time. Sure the farmer who grows my food needs rain but he lives nowhere near me and isnt affected by whether it rains where I live. Furthermore I live in a climate that doesnt have a rainy season and dry season it rains throughout the year sometimes appearing as snow.
    Yet we all make this seasonal distitinction, as do they even though it arguably makes less sense for them.

    What is a shaalah is if rain in their locale was actually harmful. IE they have a dry season during our summer when rain would harm crops and they dont want it.

    #1401982

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Furthermore I live in a climate that doesnt have a rainy season and dry season it rains throughout the year sometimes appearing as snow.”

    Woah, ubiq… you live in San Francisco?!

    #1402038

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Woah, ubiq… you live in San Francisco?!”

    nope. NYC
    According to the department of the interior the following are average precipitation in NYC in in between 1960-1991
    Jan 3.42
    Feb 3.27
    Mar 4.08
    April 4.2
    May 4.42
    June 3.67
    July 4.35
    Aug 4.01
    Sep 3.89
    Oct3.56
    nov 4.47
    Dec 3.91

    #1402091

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Mashiv Haruach is not a tefilla for rain. We are “remembering” (or maybe mentioning is a better translation) HKBH’s power to bring wind and rain. See the “title” to SA: Siman KUF YUD DALED:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49623&st=%D7%92%D7%A9%D7%9D&pgnum=275

    #1402129

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    iacisrmma
    while of course true:
    1) slonimer also asked regarding “Vesein Tal Umatar ”
    2) As you might know Mashiv haruach while not a tefila for rain is only recited during the rainy season (in E”Y) hence Slonimer’s question

    #1402240

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    I forwarded the question to Rabbi Dovid Heber (author of Shaarei Zmanim) and he responded:

    “Chazal were missaken for the seasons of Bavel and the entire goleh followed. For vsayn tal umatar, some sheetos say one should recite it in Shema Kolainu when residing in a place that is dif like the Southern Hemisphere.”

    #1402265

    limnos yameinu
    Participant

    Our minhag is based on a number of points.
    1- We are all connected to one place- our Homeland.
    2- Although the Talmud says that in Babylon we need less rain aand begin later, this was not meant to create a new time period for every area in golus, just simply to divide between those living in Israel and those not.Remember the gemara tells us that the main rain is in Israel while the rest is the extra.So even outside Israel the prayer is mainly for our land and that the extra should come our way in its proper time.The different starting time is just a reminder that we are not home.
    3-Yes, there is an opinion, the Rosh, to follow your specific area, but even he admits that his opinion was not accepted.
    4-No, someone living in the southern hemisphere or the like is never obligated in ” shma koleinu” to pray for rain during his rainy season, although it is recommended.
    5- Bavel always represents exile,as in the prayer of yikum purkan said on Shabbos.

    #1402272

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    A. There is always somewhere that yidden need rain/wind/dew or other meteorological interventions (and there is even a ski area on the Hermon whose parnassah requires ample snowfall)
    B. Given the reality of global warming, its not clear that any of this matters anyway…we hold by the shita of R’ Al Gore but not all do.

    #1402337

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    iacisrmma
    Yes that is what I was saying. I was poitning out further that not only in the Southern hemisphere are they saying it basedo n EY’s needs. But in New York as well. Where I dont want rain today nor is there a dry season. We follow E”Y as Limnos points out ” our Homeland.” granted it is a bigger chidush in the southern hemisphere but it is true in nyc as well.

    GH
    I dont get your point A. It doesnt matter what some Jew somewhere needs. We dont daven for rain after PEsach although there is ” somewhere that yidden need” it then. and if you do youd daven over.

    #1402370

    DovidBT
    Participant

    “I live in a city. I nor anybody around me wants rain at any time.”

    Where does the city get its water? Does it use bodies of water that are filled by rain?

    #1402381

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    ubiquitin: You are still missing my main point. We are not asking for rain by saying Mashiv Haruach; we are only recognizing Hashem’s power to bring winds and rain, not asking for rain. We in NY do not ask for rain until December 4th or 5th (Vsayn Tal Umatar is asking for rain which is why EY starts saying it on Zayin Marcheshvan).

    #1402409

    slominer
    Participant

    December 4 is the end of summer in the Southern hemisphere.

    #1402449

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    iacrisma
    “You are still missing my main point. We are not asking for rain by saying Mashiv Haruach; ”

    No I got that and I replied:
    “1) slonimer also asked regarding “Vesein Tal Umatar ” – in which we do ask for rain and in the Southern Hemisphere they start asking for rain shortly before Summer begins. ie Dec 4/5
    2) As you might know Mashiv haruach while not a tefila for rain is only recited during the rainy season (in E”Y) hence Slonimer’s question ” – in which case slonimer’s question remians , as does my point about there not being a rainy season

    DovidBT
    not from rain in nyc. Let those who live Ulster county daven for rain.
    (Im being partly facetious of course we need rain my point is it isnt literally tied to when we need it ie the idea of a rainy/dry season isnt relevent to us just as it is “backwards” in the southern hemisphere )

    #1402484

    iacisrmma
    Participant
    #1402490

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Again
    My point about NYC not having a rainy season wasnt an additional question
    It was an answer to SLonimer namely like limnos said, like yo ubrought from R’ Heber and like the nosei keilim all say.
    We dont detemrine when to be mazkir gevuros geshamim nor to be shoel al hageshamim based on each individial locale
    Are yo u showing something different (aside from the Rosh who we dont pasken like)?

    #1402498

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Mashiv Haruach is not a tefilla for rain. We are “remembering” (or maybe mentioning is a better translation) HKBH’s power to bring wind and rain. See the “title” to SA: Siman KUF YUD DALED:

    Just to add to ubiquitin’s answer, The mishnah and gemara in the beginning of Taanis discuss this, and we pasken to only be mazkir at the time we are shoel, and not even at the beginning of Succos, despite the fact that that’s when the judgement on rain takes place, because rain on Succos is a siman klalah.

    That the fact that it is merely “remembering” (mentioning is indeed a better term) should allow us to say it even when we don’t want rain (we are praising Hashem for bringing rain at its proper time) is R’ Eliezer’s sevara, but we don’t pasken like him.

    #1402533

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    DY: If we don’t pasken like R’ Eliezer, please explain why the Mechaber refers to Hazkaras geshem (Mashiv Haruach) in Kuf Yud Daled and Shoel (Vsayn Tal Umatar) in Kuf Yud Zayin.

    #1402548

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There’s no machlokes about what they’re called.

    #1402559

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Iaccisrmma
    Nobody is saying MAshiv haruach is a tefiallh for rain. Nonetheless Slonimer’s question stands even regarding MAshiv haruach, since Tefillah or not it is clearly tied to the “rainy season” Yet in the Southern Hemisphere it is recited during their summer.
    If he has asked why In the Southern hemisphere do they say in pesukei dezimra “Hanosein sheleg katzamer” during their summer. Then your reply thatthis isnt a tefillah for rain/snow would be relevant. As of course it isnt, and we say it year round regardless of season.
    This isnt the case for MAshiv haruach, which while not a tefillah for rain is only said during the rainy season

    #1402735

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    There are different shittos what to do in the southern hemisphere (and differences between South America and Australia). However, many agree that once the chachamin set the zman for Bavel we don’t change
    it. Many seem to say that regions in the Southern Hemisphere say Morid Hatal all year, Vsein Brocha all year but if rain is needed, say Vsayn Tal Umatar in Shema Koleinu.

    See BETZEL HACHACHMAH Chelek Vav Siman Pay hay (85)

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1810&st=&pgnum=394&hilite=

    *******************************************

    Minchas Yitzchak chelek Vav Siman kuf Ayin Alef

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1599&st=&pgnum=556&hilite=

    #1403320

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    What does the southern hemisphere have to do with anything? Florida, for example, has a pronounced rainy season that runs from late May through late October/early November, as do many northern hemisphere locations with a monsoon climatology. Israel has a Mediterranean climate that is somewhat similar to California, relying on the southerly winter storm track to transport moisture. I thought mashiv haruach umorid hageshem was tied specifically to the rainy season in eretz Yisroel.

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