April 24, 2012 6:53 am at 6:53 am #1071895
OK. Now that I read the PDF, I must say that those Avoda Zara callers really sound silly. Some people just keep their fingers on the Avoda Zara trigger waiting for a chance to pull.
He asks what the matriarchs did, if they used Segulos. Well, as it turns out, they did! Rishonim explain that the function of the Duda’im, the flowers that Reuven picked was a Segula for children. Does a fox tooth, mentioned in the Gemara in Shabos, make so much more sense than a rabbit’s foot? How about sitting in water with a chicken on your head? How about tying the father’s right shoe lace on the child’s left hand, and the warning not to tie the left lace on the right hand?
Rabbeinu Bachya has a lengthy piece on stone healing, and the Rashba was Mattir using non-physical remedies. He didn’t discern between natural and unnatural healing.
According to the simple reading of the Rambam in the Moreh, Karbanos are the invention of Ovdei Avoda Zara, and since we were used to it it was channeled into a form of Avodas Hashem. You could probably rewrite that whole article about Karbanos. Did you ever research temples?April 24, 2012 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1071896
HaLeiVi: That is not one of the better articles on the subject. However, it is useful in the fact that it does show that the Christian and pagan Minhag of this predated ours by a very, very long time.April 24, 2012 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1071897bein_hasdorimParticipant
Schissel challah? Wow That’s a super idea. Like this you have where to keep your money when you make it.April 26, 2012 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1071898frumnotyeshivishParticipant
Wasn’t the controversial dispute between R’ Yonasan Eibshitz and R’ Yakov Emden about K’meas? Even R’ Yakov Emden wasn’t stating that they didn’t work, just that Kabballa could be abused. (See e.g. Shabsai Tzvi, Madonna’s Rabbi etc.) If so, the article, bashing segulos in general has little basis, as segulos are not nearly as easily abused (oh no… People are wearing red strings… What a chillul hashem….gasp).April 27, 2012 12:12 am at 12:12 am #1071899
Frumnotyeshivish: It’s a Mefurash Tosfos that wearing a red string is Darchei Emori. Segulos work. That’s fine. But only the right ones do. The others are Assur.April 27, 2012 6:26 am at 6:26 am #1071900Think firstMember
Sam 2 what about tamarisk haminhagim?April 29, 2012 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1071901
Only thing we are missing is the bunny and we will have copied all catholic minhagim for easter. we already copied the key (they carry cross shaped keys to remind them what their “key to heaven is”) and they bake hot cross buns (buns with a cross on top).April 29, 2012 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #1071902
Next major problem is the Minhag of egg on Pesach. The Poskim aren’t sure exactly what it’s for. Pashut! Easter eggs.April 30, 2012 3:15 am at 3:15 am #1071903
Is there a source older than 250 years that mentions schlissel challa? Is there a source anywhere that mentions an inyan to bake challa (even without a key) the first week after pesach? Did this originate in Poland? Somewhere in the Austro-Hungarian Empire? Lita? Do sephardim have this minhag?April 30, 2012 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1071904YW Moderator-42Moderator
Of course thee is a “minhag” to bake challa the week after Pesach. How else will you have lechem mishna for Shabbos? (Other than pas palter).April 5, 2013 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #1071905SkypeMember
bumpApril 5, 2013 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #1071906yungerman1Participant
A response to the above referenced article was written by Yair Hoffman and is available online.
I skimmed through it and noticed two things.
He says there is no geographic connection timeline connection between the pagan custom and shlissel challah.
Also, the lack of early references to this minhag is explained simply that Chasidus only exists since the Baal Shem, so there wouldnt be any previous mention. I would guess that with many chassidic minhagim you wouldnt be able to find early references to them. This does not mean they are wrong.
He also has an early source—-
“The earliest reference is in the works of Rabbi Pinchas Shapiro of Koritz (born 1726), a descendent of the Megaleh Amukos and a student of the Baal Shem Tov. In his work called Imrei Pinchas (#298) he explains that the reason to bake Schlissel Challah on the Shabbos following Pesach is that during Pesach, the gates to Heaven were opened and remain open until Pesach Sheni. The key alludes to the fact that these gates are now open and that we should focus our prayers ever more on that account.”April 5, 2013 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1071907Oh Shreck!Participant
I’ve heard, cannot confirm, that this inyan is to commemorate the ness that happened to the Maharal. According to this version one of his shamos’s keys (to the Aron Kodesh) kept dropping off the shelf. The Maharal instructed him to visit the shul and check to see if the Aron Kodesh was all in order. Upon inspection he noticed a bottle of blood, replaced it with wine, thereby saving his entire kehilla. Again that is this version.
So in order to commemorate the ness they form a key on the challah on the Shabbos immediately following pesach, because one is not allowed to make a form on a matzah.
Again – cannot confim.April 6, 2013 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1071908
This is a complement to the Lead Pouring idiocy. It fails to pass the avoda zara smell test. And would’nt ya know, this also can lead to lead poisoning from the brass key leaching into the bread. And if you wrap the key in aluminum foil, (if that does not mess with the segula wavelegnth,) aluminum is a close second to lead in brain cell killing.April 7, 2013 6:51 am at 6:51 am #1071909
Oh Shrek, the story is about the Noda Beyehuda of Prague.
Twisted, I never heard that about aluminum. Are you say that using aluminum pans and wrapping warm food with aluminum foil is dangerous?April 7, 2013 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #1071911
Halevi, when you have lo alenu machalos in the family, and pharmocologic medicine has no answers, you go to the yesh omrim. Amalgam fillings, other sources of lead, fluoride, chloramines, and aluminum are all suspect. Another potential threat are estrogen mimics such as the BpA in jar caps and tin liners. Acidic foods easily pick up the soft metals.April 7, 2013 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1071912
I can understand that acidic food eat up the oxide layer on aluminum and then absorb pure aluminum. I wonder if non-acidic food absorb anything at all, since the aluminum oxide layer is supposed to be very solid.
So what are we left with, silicon?April 9, 2013 3:11 am at 3:11 am #1071913
It is unbelievable to me that a holy Minhag brought down in Seforim and practiced by Tzadikim throughout the generations comes under attack by ‘enlightened’ people and customs that truly are Christian in origin go unchallenged. I specifically have in mind the Muzhinke dance done with a broom for the last child and the common Maoz Tzur tune. (not to mention what passes for Jewish music these days)April 9, 2013 3:38 am at 3:38 am #1071914
the common Maoz Tzur tune
That’s been discussed here before. It’s origin was as a folk tune, and was later used in a religious context.April 9, 2013 4:03 am at 4:03 am #1071915
From JewishEncyclopedia(.com):April 9, 2013 8:57 am at 8:57 am #1071916
ShalomToYou, I saw a clip of Reb Chaim Keniyevsky singing that tune. As I pointed out in the thread on that topic, the words were probably written for that tune.April 9, 2013 10:49 am at 10:49 am #1071917
HaLeiVi: As explained to me by a chemists, with non stick cookware, you are eating that stuff too. It doesn’t stick because a molecular layer of the pot liner comes off with the would be stuck stuff. I treasure my pyrex, and stone stuff.April 9, 2013 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1071918
You have a stone frying pan?April 9, 2013 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #1071919
HaLeivi- I’d like to see that clip. YWN doesn’t allow links but see if you can figure out a way.
I never said its assur to sing it. Just that the mekor is from the goyim. If Klal Yisroel has been mekadaish it, fine. However shlissel challa is brought down in seforim and they say reasons for it. It certainly did not originate by the goyim.April 9, 2013 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1071920
Shalom: It did originate by the Goyim. That is a pretty-well documented fact. You can argue (incorrectly, but you can attempt to claim) that they started entirely independently of us and therefore we didn’t take it from them and therefore it’s Muttar. But it did originate by them.April 9, 2013 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #1071921
It’s on Matzav, I think.April 12, 2013 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #1071922
Sam2- Chas Vesholom to say so. See Ohev Yisrael.April 12, 2013 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #1071923
Chas Veshalom to say so? Look, you can try to prove it false. But it’s pretty clear that it’s true. There was even a very plausible explanation given on the first page. The Minhag wasn’t based on what was mentioned in the Seforim. Gedolim saw a Minhag and tried to give a reason. Had they known that the Christian practice predated the Jewish one by over a millenium, they probably would have come out strongly against it.April 27, 2014 4:55 am at 4:55 am #1071924April 28, 2014 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #1071925
I think the minhag originated with a hard of hearing bakery assistant. The boss said, lets bake a batch of schissel challa and he heard shlissel.April 28, 2014 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #1071926
Or maybe it is to show that it is Gebakken Noch Pesach. The proof is that we put in the key that the Goy gave back.April 28, 2014 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1071927chassidishY.U.typeMember
What key? What goy? Who are you kidding? Is your chametz really sold?April 13, 2015 2:20 am at 2:20 am #1071928charliehallParticipant
I missed this last year, but it is worth noting that aluminum is not dangerous in the levels that would be absorbed from aluminum cookware or foil, or, for that matter, aluminum keys. It is by far the most common metal in the earth’s crust and you get exposed every time you touch dirt.
Brass, OTOH, often contains lead in addition to the copper and zinc that defines the alloy and there is no safe level of exposure to lead. Don’t cook anything brass with your food.April 13, 2015 3:56 am at 3:56 am #1071930
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