January 19, 2009 2:26 am at 2:26 am #589160amesParticipant
No. If ur kids are not gonna get to it then I don’t see a problem!! But the problem might be that the father (or r u the mother) is sitting and posting on the CR 🙂January 19, 2009 8:41 am at 8:41 am #633925NobodyMember
Ames, whilst I do not wish to comment personally on this subject, please allow me to reply to your post.
A school that has no public funding and is all fee paying may be selective on whatever they wish on the basis that if the parent does not like the rules or wish to abide by them as set up by the Govenors, Trustees and Hanholoh of the school then the parents may wish to look for another school. This may include uniform or no uniform, parents’ dress mode etc.
Your post uses the words ‘Even though’ which are ususally used to justify something. Please forgive me for being out of place here but these words signify to me that you are justifying the use of your laptop when your child is 3 years of age. Please bear in mind there are many children aged three who can well use a computer nowadays!
You may be using your laptop for work only but I think the school is trying to set a principle. Whilst many people claim their computer is for work only many will use it for online shopping, looking up information or whatever.
It is difficult enough to run a school but it is up to the parents who select that particular school to abide by the rules set up. Whatever the rules.
Thank you and apologies if I have caused any offense by my replyJanuary 19, 2009 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #633926veyatzivMember
A school has a right to make rules that they deem appropriate. If you don’t like them, you have two choices:
1. choose another school
2. Abide by the rules
(3. be a hypocrite.)
Your child can pick up how to use the internet a lot faster than you think. a child of 4-5 can definitely figure it out and your child is not staying 3 forever.(is it only a preschool? Is the computer in alocked room? Is it password protected?January 19, 2009 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #633927RoshYeshivahMember
If it doesn’t make a difference to your work they have the right to request you filter it because such things set the tone of the parent body.January 19, 2009 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #633928gavra_at_workParticipant
If its their school, they have the right to make any rules they want. You have the right not to support their school or not send your kids.
Why is this any different than any other business?January 19, 2009 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #633929jphoneMember
If you choose to send your child(ren) to a particular school and they have specific rules, you should keep those rules.
If your kids are not in a particular school and a Rosh Yeshiva states in his opinion and it is contrary to what your particular Rav/Posek tells you to do, then follow your own Posek. I would assume that your own Rav/posek is aware of the statement of the Rosh Yeshiva in question and chooses to issue his psak anyway. even if he is not aware, it is his Daas Torah that you are following.January 19, 2009 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #633930JotharMember
A friend of mine boasted that he can get by any filter (koshernet, jnet, yeshivanet, etc). While i didn’t ask for a demonstration of his skills, it’s reasonable to assume that your kids will know of and find out any weaknesses from their friends. Of course, even if you don’t have internet, your children’s friends will. At some point, we have to teach kids coping skills. Today’ society will creep in one way or another.January 19, 2009 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #633931
a school definitely does have the right to demand such a thing of their parents and like many people here have said, if you have trouble abiding then find a different school. the problem is, and trust me i know it happens, is when a school says their can not be internet access in the home and then makes their students sign a form saying they dont go on line and then teachers assign assignments that require extensive internet research?!?! thats when i dont understand what exactly schools expect?January 19, 2009 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #633932oomisParticipant
I think that if you know going into the school that this is a rule, they can impose any rule that they wish. What I object to is the school that imposes arbitrary rules AFTER you have already been in the system for a while. It’s as though they draw you in, and when they know they have you over the barrel, they change the rules suddenly. If I send my child to one Yeshivah over another because that Yeshivah is (for argument’s sake) Zionistic, and then, because the parent body is slowly becoming more Agudah-like, the Yeshivah drops it’s Yom Haatzmaut parade day, and Yom Yerushalayim observance, then I feel disconcerted.
Personally, I don’t feel it is the business of a Yeshivah to tell a parent whether or not he can have internet on his computer, or even if he can HAVE a computer – or ELSE! Maybe the parent has no other Yeshivah within reasonable travelling, to which he can send that child. This puts the parents in an untenable position of “hiding” their computer and being a hypocrite, or not having oen available for necessary work. However, that being said – if the Yeshivah does so order the parent body, then either the parent needs to discuss his particular problem with the school and hope the RY will be understanding of his dilemma, or start looking for another place for his child. If by the way, enough parents felt the same way as he, parents who are paying tuition, and they all took their kids out, the school might revisit the situation and find another solution to this issue. Otherwise, they get to make the rules,and ya gots to follow ’em.January 19, 2009 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #633933yrosMember
every yeshiva shouldn’t accept people who have internetJanuary 20, 2009 2:20 am at 2:20 am #633934xeroxMember
yros: A lot of people need it for buisness!
And if that became a reality- well then CHV”S ther shouldn’t be a big bunch of good boys in the streets!!January 20, 2009 2:27 am at 2:27 am #633935aziParticipant
how about Roshei Yeshiva who think for themselves and dont fall for the part line? Maybe some poeple have a clear view of the world and realize that extremism should be left for the Taliban.January 20, 2009 3:03 am at 3:03 am #633936
yros, thats plain stupidity. there has always got to be the exception to the rule and some ppl just pashutly need to have internet in theri home for business related reasons. if it would be according to how you say it than any child whose parent(s) work from home via internet wouldnt be in school…that would be ludicrious. rather, yeshivas shuold have guidelines with excpetions that are logical.January 20, 2009 5:24 am at 5:24 am #633938
Schools can make the rules they want and donors can refuse to support schools that they deem to be overly selective. Squeezing the parents’ ability to earn a living through the internet appears to be self defeating for almost any school. In all fairness to parents, rules should generally be disclosed to them before enrollment.January 20, 2009 11:09 am at 11:09 am #633939Mrs. BeautifulMember
veyatziv, I agree with you. If you don’t like the rules your school sets you always have the option to go someplace else. School’s dont create rules for the fun of it, they do it when they see a need. It’s usually not a good idea to outsmart those more experienced than u.January 20, 2009 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #633940SJSinNYCMember
To answer the question: YES, the school has the right to make its own rules.
As to whether its the right thing to do? NO
Remember, just because you have the RIGHT to do something, doesnt make it the RIGHT thing to do..
Torahis1, I agree 100% with this statement.
My sister needs the internet because she is deaf – its her primary form of communication with most people (and much easier than using TTY/VCO). It opened a new world to her when she could communicate with others in the same way as everyone else was doing. She got a “heter” from the Lakewood rabbonim – she had to have a lock on the door to the room and a lock on the computer and not let the kids use the internet.
What I laugh about though, is that if the internet is so treif, there should be no kosher people on it that she needs to communicate with. Also, email is technically enough for her, but no one said “just email.” I personally think the rabbonim have banned things like internet is inconsistent. It would make sense if the rabbonim came out and said “If you need the internet for work, then you are allowed to use it for work and nothing else.” However, that would generally put places like YWN out because most of their clientele cannot visit. I really don’t understand the attitude of if you need the internet for work, its ok to use it for other things. The people I know who use internet “for work only” also surf plenty of other sites.January 20, 2009 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #633941
Well, one thing I may add to this discussion is this: We are still in the early stages of the ban on the internet. This situation is akin to the yeshivos not allowing children with a television into their schools in the ’70s. We don’t know yet how this will pan out (I personally think that the ban will fail, we need a more workable solution, but that is beside the point). In the meantime, not allowing the children into the school is too aggressive.
I think many people will agree with me that it makes sense NOWADAYS that some yeshivos do not allow children with a television in their home into their school. I have personally seen how a child with no television is adversely affected by the classmates who do have one. But that is because the stance on television is pretty well understood. The stance on internet has not yet reached that level of “black-and-white”ness, and therefore I feel it is not appropriate to be so aggressive about it yet.January 20, 2009 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #633942SJSinNYCMember
I think many people will agree with me that it makes sense NOWADAYS that some yeshivos do not allow children with a television in their home into their school. I have personally seen how a child with no television is adversely affected by the classmates who do have one. But that is because the stance on television is pretty well understood. The stance on internet has not yet reached that level of “black-and-white”ness, and therefore I feel it is not appropriate to be so aggressive about it yet.
Squeak, I think its time to pull out a bottle of your favorite schnapps. We agree. I have no problem with schools forbidding entrance to children with TVs in their household (so long as there is another orthodox school in the area that takes children with TVs – but I think out of town yeshivas don’t make restrictions like this because they understand that the kids will have nowhere to go).
I have a problem with parents who agree to a schools rules to send them, but then don’t follow them. You agreed that you wouldn’t have a TV, so why is there a “microwave” in your closet that you let the kids watch? Or that you yourself watch? It sends such a mixed message to kids, unless you approach it properly. My sister is probably moving out of Lakewood in the next few years (my bro-in-law’s job is moving), so my sister has to be extra vigilent in explaining to her kids that some things are just school rules and not halacha. This way, when they move to a place that is not as stringent as Lakewood on a community wide basis, the kids won’t think that everything everyone else is doing is assur, rather a different community rule. She handles it very well IMO.
The internet will never be “black and white” in either direction. IMHO, its a tool and there are ways to use it properly and improperly. Perhaps guidelines would be better than a blanket ban.January 20, 2009 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #633943
squeak, TV is tot diff from internet. most ppl can not claim they need TV for business. so like you said the ban on tv is tot appropriate and understandable…the internet rule needs some flexibility.January 20, 2009 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #633944gavra_at_workParticipant
Since the discussion has changed from “can” to “should”, it depends on the parent body. The rules should follow the majority of parents wishes (in an “in town” yeshiva, and/or where there are multiple choices) and if that’s what they want, then the yeshiva is just following the wishes of most of its customers.January 20, 2009 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #633945
I’m not saying it’s not different, just that the “ban” on kids from “internet homes” is definitely based on the ban vis-a-vis “TV homes”. And my point is that it is not a valid comparison until the internet issue is fully ironed out.January 21, 2009 2:19 am at 2:19 am #633946ujmParticipant
It is too dangerous for our children’s neshamas to wait to we find out if the internet spiritually killed them. We must act now, not when the issue is “fully ironed out.”January 21, 2009 3:06 am at 3:06 am #633947tentwenty30Member
while in theory you are correct, the fact is that kids have a habit of finding these things out anyways.
I think that it makes more sense (with internet at least), to rather than simply all-out ban it, educate people in the proper use of this most valuable tool/resourceJanuary 21, 2009 3:10 am at 3:10 am #633948
Is it not also dangerous for our children’s neshamos to be banned from attending a good yeshiva? Simply because one administrator feels the need to be a maveric?January 21, 2009 4:07 am at 4:07 am #633949ujmParticipant
squeak, administrator?? I do believe the internet issue was determined and announced by Gedolei Yisroel at various asifas. Not some maveric.January 21, 2009 4:56 am at 4:56 am #633950
Most charedi communities in the US do not ban the internet.January 21, 2009 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #633951
ujm: I do believe that I attended many such asifos. I also believe that a workable solution has not yet been reached. I also believe that this is generally understood, and that the parnossim of klal yisrael are working with the Gedolim towards a workable solution.
What I know is that many fine, reputable, yeshivish schools allow children from homes with the internet into their schools. Probably because a solution is not available. I am sure that these same schools will change their policy as soon as there is a better understanding of how to deal with this problem.
That is why I call I refer to those who are hasty to institute a ban as “mavericks”.January 25, 2009 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #633952jphoneMember
If you agree to a school policy and them blatantly (or not so blatantly) ignore the policy you send a horrible message to your children. Probably a worse message than many of the “off limit” internet sites have to offer our kids.
The “internet” is not treif, although the vast majority of the informaiton avaialble via the internet is certainly contrary to torah hashkafa and includes many violations of halacha. Assuring “the internet” is like assuring chicken because an unscrupulous person sells treif as kosher. There IS a lot of kosher info available on the web, for personal and business use and with the proper “hechsherim” in place (filters, restricted sites, white lists – IE only selected sites available and no other url opens) “the internet” can be used and benefited from in a kosher way.January 25, 2009 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #633953JosephParticipant
jphone – all your arguments could technically be made about tv; I would certainly hope you wouldn’t advance the same arguments vis-a-vis tv.January 25, 2009 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #633954
Most chickens sold in this country (USA) are not kosher, but we need chicken. We also need access to the modern marketplace AKA the internet to make a living and buy certain needs in a cost efficient manner. Without TV life still goes on and in fact quality of life can be better without. Students do better in school. Both children and adults are more active physically and healthier.January 25, 2009 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #633955YankyaMember
Even in Lakewood, the schools do not ban internet; they do require a filter, and an ‘ishur’ that the internet is needed for business purposes. This rule does not prevent adults from doing business with the internet, but it does prevent our children from seeing the worst sights in the world. That seems like quite a prudent course to take, and honestly, a filter is good for adults as well; I once by complete mistake ended up on a page which made me shudder. I immediately shut the page, but the image remains in my mind. While a filter may not stop someone who is determined to get past it, it generally prevents such unfortunate occurrences.
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