School Board Monitors in Lakewood & East Ramapo

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  • #1157230

    Abba_S
    Participant

    Another problem facing the Lakewood school monitor is special ed.

    It seem the district was found to be submitting false affidavits in order to deny private placement. The Special Ed. supervisor was fired because of it. It seemed that the well connected got private placement while everyone else was denied, this is as per the APP. This has been going on for years, but someone appealed and proved the affidavit was false just last year. Will the monitor tell the parents who were wrongly denied that they are entitled to private placement? Or will every parents denied private placement in the last five years appeal?

    This will cause a backlog in court hearings unless the BOE starts giving private placement in mediation instead of by administrative judge, or hires more judges to hear all these cases. Besides all the parents cases, which numbers in the hundreds, wanting private placement, at the same time the Monitor (BOE) wants to get those who are not entitled to expensive private placement off, this also requires a court hearing. Failure to have hearing on a timely basis results in private placements

    No matter how you look at legal expenses are going to be going up and quite likely so is special ed. expenses this coming school year. How will the monitor balance the Budget?

    #1157231

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Nisht, what do minorities, or lack of them have to do with how well the district is run?

    Abba, I have a question regarding your statistic of 3000 additional students in Lakewood and Monsey. I presume as kids get older,they graduate , right? So, are you saying that the incoming class is actually between 4000 and 6000 ( 3000 new plus replacing departing students ) ? That seems kind of high. How many frum families are in school community? How much do you know about the five Towns? Based on your estimates you feel that the population is 1/6 the size of Lakewood and Monsey ( few hundred vs 3000 )

    #1157232

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    1) It has to do with the school performance. That’s what happened in ERCSD. Years ago the public school population was 80% white, now it’s more than 90% minority from low socio economic classes. Many ESL. the management of the schools are much more difficult because of the additional services neccesary and performance will be lower, resulting in more unhappy people.

    2) Like it or not, the rabble rousers are different and are less willing to work with the system to make it work rather than trying to just disrupt the system entirely.

    Both items are borne out by the facts on the ground.

    #1157233

    Abba_S
    Participant

    Less

    I do not know anyone that is moving from NYC to the 5 towns. Most young couples are moving to Lakewood or Monsey. There maybe new developments in the 5 towns but I am unaware of them. In Lakewood and Monsey you can always see new developments being built.

    Two years ago there was 24,000 students in Lakewood 19,000 yeshiva and 5,000 public school. This year the monitor wanted to cancel courtesy busing and deny 10,000 students busing, assuming that a third of the student use courtesy busing. The yeshiva students went from 19,000 to 25,000 in two years( 30,000 minus 5,000 public school student = 25,000)or an increase of 3,000 per year.

    There are more students entering yeshivas each year than there are public school student in all 12 grades in Lakewood and Monsey. Within 10 years this number will double as per Hank Greenberg the prior ERSD school monitor.

    #1157234

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Abba

    Lakewood & Monsey vs the 5 towns gets differnt crowds. The 5 towns tends to get more modern people , Lakewood tends to get more yeshivish people and money more chassidish people. Unless you know people in those circles you would not know people who are moving to those places

    #1157235

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Abba, you made invalid statements re five Towns based upon personal, incorrect observations. Sales of homes to young couples are ongoing( based on real estate sales by frum agencies ) , numerous young couples moving in each week and shul’s bursting at the seems. New yeshivas keep opening as are new shul’s.

    I hope everything else you’ve been telling us isn’t similarly based on personal observations.

    By the way, where do the respective yeshivas in lakewood and Monsey plan to place 3000 additional students each per year? Were there that many empty slots? I thought the yeshivas in Lakewood are at capacity?

    #1157236

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    zahavasdad – Look at the numbers of Kollels in Lakewood, East Ramapo and the Five Towns. That will explain everything.

    It isn’t the number of families moving in, it is the number of large families who aren’t making anything near what they “need” and are on government support (but still manage to own a home (HUD), or if not, pay for taxes indirectly via increased rent).

    The Five Towns (I imagine) has more working families with fewer children and less poverty.

    #1157237

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    GAW

    the 5 towns really isnt a place, It really includes Far Rockaway which is quite charedi, however Far Rockaway is part of NYC and Lawrence is not (Its in Nassau County)

    the taxing districts are different between Far Rockaway and the 5 Towns and the school disctricts are completely different as Far Rockaway is NYC schools and Lawrence is Lawrence schools

    #1157238

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    the 5 towns really isnt a place, It really includes Far Rockaway which is quite charedi, however Far Rockaway is part of NYC and Lawrence is not (Its in Nassau County)

    the taxing districts are different between Far Rockaway and the 5 Towns and the school disctricts are completely different as Far Rockaway is NYC schools and Lawrence is Lawrence schools

    Discounting the NYC portion (which won’t have this type of issue), how many Kollels are there in the Nassau County section?

    Less – It isn’t the homeowners, but the Kollels, rentals, poverty and HUD.

    #1157239

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Kollels are in Far Rockaway. I think even Shor yshuv which is quite large is in Far Rockaway.

    For some reason, most if not all the Kollels are in the NYC part and not the Nassau County part

    #1157240

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Unless you are familiar with the area, you might not realize that the boundary between Nassau County and NYC is just an artificial boundary, there is no real seperation .I am not even sure that the nassau Expressway is the border. You basically walk across the street and you are in nassau or NYC

    #1157241

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The Kollels are in Far Rockaway. I think even Shor yshuv which is quite large is in Far Rockaway.

    For some reason, most if not all the Kollels are in the NYC part and not the Nassau County part

    NYC has income tax (which Kollel guys don’t pay). Outside NYC (such as Long Island and Westchester) has no income tax, but has high real estate taxes (which kollel guys would have to pay).

    Pashut.

    #1157242

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Zdhavasdad, the five Towns ( Lawrence, Cedarhhrdt,Woodmere, Hewlett and Inwood ARE a place. Cedarhurst has the primary business district with most of the kosher restaurants and older, smaller housing, Woodmere ,Hewlett and Lawrence are residential and expensive ( Back Lawrence and Woodsburgh very expensive ) and have high % of frum Jewish population. Inwood traditionally had little Jews Jewish population but in recent years couples seeking affordable prices have been buying in Inwood.

    Far Rockaway is in Queens County and is much more yeshivish . the five Towns ( Nassau County ) has a growing and significant yeshivish population but also has a large MO population. The YI of Woodmere has over 1200 families

    #1157243

    Rockaway Resident
    Participant

    Sh’or Yoshuv is in Lawrence.

    #1157244

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Shor Yshuv is on the Far Rockaway side of the Nassau Expressway which makes it confusing and I think NYC abuts the property (The houses behind it are in Queens..According to google maps). Unless you are a survyer it would be hard to know the boundaries between nassau and queens

    #1157245

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Sh’or Yoshuv is in Lawrence.

    Did a google search and it is on the border. Don’t know if that counts, and I’m willing to bet that Riba D’Ruba of those in Kollel there live in NYC for the reasons mentioned.

    #1157246

    Rockaway Resident
    Participant

    zahavasdad, the address is Lawrence, and as you said above, the Nassau Expressway is not the border.

    gavra_at_work, that is probably true.

    Yeshivah Gedolah of the Five Towns has a Kollel, and many of the members do live near there.

    #1157247

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    gavra_at_work, that is probably true.

    Yeshivah Gedolah of the Five Towns has a Kollel, and many of the members do live near there.

    One. Now compare to Lakewood. ’nuff said.

    #1157248

    Rockaway Resident
    Participant

    I didn’t know we were making comparisons. Of course.

    #1157249

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I didn’t know we were making comparisons. Of course.

    It is why Lakewood and East Ramapo have funding issues while the Five Towns does not, even though all have majority private school districts.

    #1157250

    Abba_S
    Participant

    The point I was trying to make is Lakewood & Monsey have large families who are in the low income bracket while the 5 towns even in Inwood they are small families and almost all are in the middle income bracket.

    In Lakewood there are over 100 yeshivas and they are bursting at the seam because every year the yeshiva student population is growing by the thousands and there just isn’t enough classroom space to fit all of them.

    #1157251

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Abba_S –

    AKA Kollel and recently ex Kollel.

    Methinks we agree.

    #1157252

    lesschumras
    Participant

    zdhavasdad, I would make the same suggestion to you that I made to Abba. You made sweeping comments re five Towns without a clear understanding of the area.

    #1157253

    Abba_S
    Participant

    I am not saying NO young Jewish couples are moving into the 5 towns, they are but not in the same numbers as are moving into Lakewood or Monsey. The ones that are, buying exiting houses own by gentiles, while in Lakewood they are buying houses in new developments. Also the average age of a resident is lower in Lakewood then in the 5 towns. Thus resulting in larger families in Lakewood. Many who claim 5 town residency actually live in Bayswater which is a few blocks over in NYC and not in the school district.

    #1157254

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Bayswater is not directly on the border, Its a few miles into the city

    Lakewood has open land which the 5 towns area does not. You could not have new developements there like you do in Lakewood, there is no free land (Except wetlands which are environmentally protected and in flood zones)

    #1157255

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Abba, please document your demographic claims as you continue to show no understanding of the area,( Bayswater )

    #1157256

    lesschumras
    Participant

    People in other areas do try to infer connection to five Towns, but they have to abut the five Towns. 25 years ago when Far Rockaway was just starting to come back from the abyss, real estate agents marketed the part of Far Rockaway next to Lawrence as ” West Lawrence ” to avoid any association with Far Rockaway. Today, young couples moving into the section of Valley Stream next to Woodmere “North Woodmere”

    #1157257

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    lesschumras – He meant East Bayswater! 🙂

    His point is correct, though. Anyone in NYC would not be included in a discussion regarding a School district or majority private schools.

    #1157258

    lesschumras
    Participant

    GAW, I agree neither Bayswater or Far Rockaway are in the five Towns school district, or in Nassau, which is why I didn’t understand why AD and Abba brought them up.

    #1157259

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    LC

    The Kehilla is really called the vaad of the 5 towns and Far Rockaway. from a jewish point of view the 5 towns and Far Rockaway are one Kehilla, however from a legal secular view they are not

    #1157260

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “The Kehilla is really called the vaad of the 5 towns and Far Rockaway. “

    Whaaaat?

    #1157261

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    “The Kehilla”

    Unless it is New Square or Yekkes, I doubt it is a “Kehilla”. Maybe a Kashrus Org. with that name.

    #1157262

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Not all vaads are just kashruths. Some deal with communal issues as well. Kashruths are just the most public of them

    #1157263

    lesschumras
    Participant

    ZD, the Vaad is a kashrus service, nothing else. Where do you live? Where do you get your information from?

    #1157264

    lesschumras
    Participant

    When the combinedbVaad came into being, the Far Rockaway side tried to use the Vaad as a religious tool by disqualifying stores whose owners personal ,at home, tznius and/or hashkofos did not meet their standards. There was a significant backlash to this overreach. The attempt was retracted and not repeated.

    #1157265

    Rockaway Resident
    Participant

    lesschumras, that’s not fair. When the two Vaads merged, they made serious improvements in some basic Kashrus issues.

    One short lived idea was to hang a sign to identify which establishments kept which standards, including if the owner is Shomer Shabbos. Some people are careful to only buy food produced by someone who keeps Kosher himself, but all the establishments were allowed to remain open as long as they kept the Vaad’s minimum standards.

    #1157266

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There are always issues related to the entire community that some consensus can be reached. You dont think most of the community tried to get together after Hurricane Sandy which hit the area severly. You dont think they try to do things related to Hatzollah. You dont think they can help with Tzedakah issues (Ie someone needs tzedkah from a poorer section, goes to his rav, who goes to a rav from the more well off section and is able to get the Tzedakah). There is Kulanu which serves everyone and there are other things as well

    #1157267

    lesschumras
    Participant

    The owner’s who were frum and shomer Shabbos that i knew told me that it was an unnecessary and unpleasant intrusion into their lives by a kashrus service.

    #1157268

    Abba_S
    Participant

    It seems the ERSD monitors were paid $176,000 for their service. They were paid through December and the reason we are not hearing about them is the state hasn’t allocated any additional funding in the current year for them. Although, the NY state is planning to spend $450,000 next year (starting April) for monitors with veto power and will be giving the district an additional $12-15 million in school aid as per the Journal News. Will the state give the aid even if the monitor with veto power bill isn’t passed? It is also unclear if this funding is for capital improvements or just to avoid additional cuts in service. Unless the monitor is going to improve services for yeshivas it is doubtful the monitor will be getting any budget increases, meaning the state will be footing a larger portion of the budget.

    #1157269

    Abba_S
    Participant

    It seems the Lakewood school monitor cancelled school busing for over 700 yeshiva students 2 days ago. (“14 School Bus routes have been discontinued”) There was suppose to be a BOE meeting about this yesterday but it was cancelled. Now it’s being reported that the district will be using it own buses to transport these children, as reported in the APP.

    This is pay back for not passing the $6.2 million referendum and the first salvo in budget negotiations for the new school year. I think what happened is that they (Lakewood) threaten to sue the state as there was suppose to be a deal for this year and the state got the monitor to back down. I think the monitor will deny some more yeshiva student busing next year even though the state will have to reimburse the parents $900.00 per student, because it cost the parents more to arrange for private transportation.

    #1157270

    Mammele
    Participant

    So it seems that the naysayers were wrong. According to Hamodia (if the current deal gets voted on by both parts of the legislature, which in all likelihood it will) the East Ramapo School District will get an additional 3 million in funding for public school students.

    AND there will be a monitor to oversee only that 3 million, with the school board having veto rights. They’re hoping for more funds as the years go on.

    #1157271

    Joseph
    Participant

    Chalk up a victory for the good guys.

    #1157272

    Mammele
    Participant

    Bump.

    Still waiting to hear from Zdad among others.

    #1157273

    Abba_S
    Participant

    This additional $3 million,is the cost of the three state monitors included or not. Each monitor’s salary is about $175,000.00 when fringe benefits and indirect payroll expenses are added to it plus supporting staff, there is not much left that can be spent on the students.

    Even if the monitors are funded separately, school busing for the additional yeshiva students may siphon off a significant portion of this. But even without that $3 million in additional funding is a drop in the bucket when it comes to this district’s financial problems. For example this may fund for patching the roofs to prevent leaks when a new roof is needed, all that’s going to happen is that more leaks will develop. The district needs an additional $60 million a year for at least 3 years in order to fix most of their buildings and provide adequate staffing to properly teach the public school students while at the same time providing yeshiva students with the current level of service.

    #1157274

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am trying to get the news reports about this. I looked it up after you posted it. There was very few news reports about it basically Hamodia and a local hudson Valley News source (Lohud or something like that) only Hamodia mentioned they had veto power. I even tried to read the actual bill (Virtually impossible).

    Until I can get a complete story from several sources, I will not comment on the compromise (It did seem Hamodia and Lohud differed a bit)

    #1157275

    Mammele
    Participant

    ZDad: Fair enough. I read the LoHud article last night and it also seems to me the details are different. Time will tell.

    AbbaS: 3 million is indeed a paltry sum when it involves so many students and such a huge budget. It’s the principle that they are finally indirectly acknowledging that the status-quo is unfair and unsustainable. And of course, in government everything just gets bigger, so hopefully the funding will grow down the road, or they’ll realize that private school students need to get accounted for more broadly.

    #1157276

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Raise the property taxes. Why should I or any other NY tXpater pay for their bussing.

    #1157277

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Raise the property taxes. Why should I or any other NY tXpater pay for their bussing.

    They are already paying a lot more than the cost of their own children’s busing. Why should they pay for other children’s public school education more than other NYS taxpayers?

    #1157278

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Each district pays their own taxes. How far away do you have live to get free bussing?

    #1157279

    Joseph
    Participant

    NY and NJ State laws states that their can be no discrimination in paying for both public and private schools children’s bussing. Both must be paid by the government, for eligible children, per State law. State law further states that if the local government pays for public school courtesy bussing (and public school children use courtesy bussing more than private school children since they tend to live closer to the public school they attend), then the law requires equality in paying private schoolchildren’s bussing.

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