February 6, 2011 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #594813
The gemarah in Yoma 9b says that the reason the first Beis Hamikdash was destroyed was because of gilui arayos, shvichas damim, and avodah zara and then brings psukim from Yeshaya and melochim that show this.
Then the gemora says that second Beis Hamikdash was destroyed because of sinas chinam but doesn’t bring any pesukim. Anyone know the gemora’s source? I would say kamtza and bar kamtza but how did the gemara know that that wasn’t one isolated incident?February 6, 2011 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #914117littleeemaParticipant
I don’t know the gemara’s source, but it can’t be a pasuk. Tanach was “sealed” (chatima) by the Anshei Kneset Hagedola at the beginning of the second Bait Hamikdash. Hence, you have no psukim being generated about current events then as you do with Bait Rishon.February 6, 2011 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #914118yitayningwutParticipant
The sin’as chinam of the kamtza and bar kamtza story is what actually caused the destruction of the second beis hamikdash, historically speaking. I think the fact that Hashem allowed the events to play out in a way that this story was the cause, motivated the Chachamim to say that this was the reason as well. Not exactly like, but similar to the concept of ??????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?”? ????.February 6, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #914119HaLeiViParticipant
The story in Gittin about Kamtza and Bar Kamtza is one of three stories of how three different cities were destroyed. Kamtza and bar Kamtza is how Yerushalayim was destroyed. The Gemara about Sinas Chinam being the cause of the second Beis Hamikdash being destroyed is in Yoma.
Chazal had an understanding of what the Beis Hamikdash stood for and what each Beis Hamikdash separately stood for. They knew the depth of each Mitzva and their effects. The Gemara in Shabbos lists different Aveiros and their punishments. Some are from Pesukim, others are from their broad understanding that they gleaned from the Torah.
With their keen judgement, they were able to see what shortcoming was prevalent and if it co-relates to the Churban.
If you want an insight into what I’m talking about, see the Maharal’s Netzach Yisroel.February 6, 2011 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #914120HaLeiViParticipant
I was thinking that in that story of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza, Bar Kamtza was upset by the fact that the Talmidei Chachamim present did’t intervene. The reason they didn’t intervene could be that they were afraid of getting on the guy’s wrong side, being that it was a famous fight. It may be that Chazal saw in this story that even the Chachamim got wrapped into politics. Even though it is a minor issue, but if it is in the Chachamim, then it deeply rooted.February 6, 2011 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #914121
The reason why I ask is because the gemara in Yoma does bring psukim for the Bayis Rishon. It is not uncommon for the gemara to base ideas back into psukim (or from psukim depending how you look at it).
I only recently got into sifrei machshava and haven’t started the Maharal yet, but I will definitely look there to see what he says.February 6, 2011 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #914122blueprintsParticipant
Gemoro in bm reb yochanan says that the bh was destroyed cos dayonim didn’t go lifnim mishuras hadin and tosafos says it was this reason along with sinas chinomFebruary 6, 2011 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #914123
That gemora in BM 30b says that is why Yerushalayim was destroyed. I guess Yerushalayim and the Bayis Sheini were destroyed for the same reasonDecember 19, 2012 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #914124uneeqMember
I found this interesting article from the OU, that posits that it wasn’t the Kamtza and Bar Kamtza story alone that caused the destruction of the Bais Hamikdash to be destroyed.
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