Secular Studies In Mesivta

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  • This topic has 115 replies, 31 voices, and was last updated 11 years ago by HIE.
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  • #765284
    HIE
    Participant

    hadassa, you say i have bad grammar. its funny because i go to a mainstream yeshiva in brooklyn that does no question has the best and high quality secular studies department in yeshivish yeshivos in brooklyn (and their known for it). and i am happy to have it. and since i only have 2.5 hours of secular studies everyday if feel that there is no reason that any yeshivish yeshiva should have more then that. and btw i will be getting and advanced regents and high school diploma when i graduate. so nice try saying that i have bad grammar cuz i probably have better grammar that 90% of yeshiva bochurim my age

    #765285
    Midwest2
    Participant

    HIE – sounds like you could use a trigonometry tutor. You’re obviously having trouble with it and it’s affecting your outlook.

    In terms of time spent on secular studies, you can’t get by with a half hour for English, a half hour for math, etc. Building skills in English takes constant work over many years – especially the teen years. English is a difficult language. The grammar is weird, the vocabulary is very large (a dumping ground for Saxon, French, German, Latin and Greek) and the spelling is horrendous. I’ve seen people learning English as a second language literally burst into tears over its complexity. One of the many things I’m profoundly grateful for is that I was brought up in an English-speaking country and don’t have to learn it as an adult.

    And don’t think, “Well, I’m American, so of course I know English.” If you go to yeshiva in the tri-state area you don’t speak English. You speak Yeshivish or Boro-Parkese. I’m bilingual in Boro-Parkese and American English, and believe me, I’m very careful which dialect I speak where. I could tell you some funny stories, but they’re too embarrassing 🙂

    Math is easier to cram into a shorter period, but it still needs time.

    If there were frum teachers around, I’d say hire them. However, we’re stuck with what we can get, which isn’t much because we don’t pay much or pay on time.

    So how are mesivta students going to support their future families? Your guess is as good as mine.

    #765286
    Midwest2
    Participant

    BTW – HIE, your writing really is atrocious. You should be spending two hours a day on English alone. I would never hire you to do anything but manual work. “Cuz” is not a word in the English language, for one thing. What you text on your cellphone and what you should be writing as standard English are not the same.

    #765287
    HIE
    Participant

    midwest, my writing is atroucious, because i type speeding and dont have time to start correcting everything.

    btw, whoever said that you need so many years to learn english is a bit mislead. I have an english teacher who has been teaching english for 27 years now. He is a top of the line english teacher. He told us that after 2 years of high school english, each one of us can do pretty well on the regent. So we asked him why we have four years of english course. His answer: I DONT KNOW

    #765288
    yid.period
    Member

    I’d really love to break down HIE’s post line by line and explain all the grammatical errors… but I have finals coming up in a week, so I think spending a few days on that would be bittul zman.

    #765289
    wanderingchana
    Participant

    “And don’t think, “Well, I’m American, so of course I know English.” If you go to yeshiva in the tri-state area you don’t speak English.” 100%!!

    FWIW, there is no way I would support a daughter whose husband has a poor attitude about the secular studies she has taken seriously in order to work and support her husband’s learning. And I won’t stand for my granddaughter’s father dismissing as unimportant her studies, either.

    #765292
    eclipse
    Member

    Sir,I find your screen name rather odd,given the forum you’re on.

    #765293
    Pac-Man
    Member

    Thank you. I just noticed that a couple of minutes ago. All his posts have been deleted, he has been blocked, and his account info was sent to his mother and his mashgiach.

    #765295
    yid.period
    Member

    HIE

    well how is your hebrew dik duk? Is it important to learn dikduk well?

    Also, what is your long-term plan for supporting a family, just wondering? What kind of job do you expect to have?

    #765298
    yid.period
    Member

    Moderator,

    What did I miss? Pacman is an inappropriate name?

    btw, is that allowed, like, legally (sending his info to those people/how did you know who his mashgiach is?)?

    Pacman alerted us to another user who was abusing the site. That is who I was talking about.

    #765299
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “my writing is atroucious, because i type speeding and dont have time to start correcting everything.”

    Ok, we’ll for give the spelling and even the grammar. Vocabulary? Syntax? Seems 4 years of English are not enough for some.

    #765300

    HIE, if you would slow down just a little bit so that your spelling and grammar were correct, we would all have an easier time reading what you have to say. Your writing really does leave much to be desired. It doesn’t take that long to put in apostrophes, differentiate between “then” and “than”, and spell “they’re” correctly instead of writing “their”. And those are just a few examples.

    #765301
    Mayan_Dvash
    Participant

    A couple of things: Yeshivas curricula (plural for curriculum) are guided by their Rosh(ei) Yeshiva.

    Second, trigonometry in particular is used in a couple of Mesechtos in Shas and is elaborated on in Tosfos. Day-to-day things like Sh’kia use trig. If the mods don’t allow posting email addresses, how about posting your trig or other math questions and some of us math people will gladly answer. I aced Math 3 and did very well in PreCal Cal 1 & 2 and other advanced math classes.

    ;

    #765302
    HIE
    Participant

    whose posts were deleted?

    B’h I have a life and don’t have time to check ever little mistake. I type at the speed of 60 wpm and on my netbook I make many mistakes because it’s hard to type on it. Also, I’m very used to texting language, so i use that here too.

    #765303
    agittayid
    Participant

    Yeshivas for girls have similar circumstances financially and otherwise as do the boy’s mesivtas. Yet,the secular education there appears to be taken seriously. I don’t think most of the girl’s parents would tolerate the kind of secular education that takes place in the mesivtas.

    #765304
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    B’h I have a life and don’t have time to check ever little mistake. I type at the speed of 60 wpm and on my netbook I make many mistakes because it’s hard to type on it. Also, I’m very used to texting language, so i use that here too.

    In other words, you believe that your time is more valuable than ours. You believe that the one or two seconds you are saving by not typing correctly is more valuable than the time we (your readers) have to take to “decode” what you’re writing.

    But you know what? I have a life too. I work AND go to school. And I raise kids, and do lots of other things too. And yet, I find the time to use proper punctuation, correct spelling mistakes and make it easier for my audience to read what it is I have to say. In short, stop being self-centered.

    The Wolf

    #765305
    HIE
    Participant

    mayan dvash, would you be able to answer questions that i have, cuz i’m studying for the trig regent and i come across questions that the barrons regents book doesn’t explain well,

    mods, can i get his email address

    #765306
    Working on it
    Participant

    HIE

    Perhaps you can put aside your youthful arrogance and listen to the many (more experienced) people that have responded to your post. The fact that you can type 60 wpm means nothing if they are spelled wrong or placed in the wrong context.

    You boast that compared to other schools you have a much better secular education. If that is the case, it is frightening to think how bad the other educations are and where that will lead them in life. Just remember that being the best of the worst is not necessarily a good thing.

    Overall, I see your attitude as a reflection of two things:

    1 – Todays society’s “on demand” attitude, or “I want to do what I want when I want”

    2 – The attitudes adopted by yeshivos to belittle a proper secular education. This is especially damaging because the children’s negative view of secular studies (as evidenced by HIE) comes as a direct result of those attitudes. Why should students conduct themselves properly or value the education if they are told by the school that it is not important???

    I personally feel that it is extremely important to have a proper education. How else can todays young people get a job or career in an increasingly competitive job market? Certainly not if you don’t know the difference between their and they’re. You may not think much about it now but when you I’YH get married and have children you will be thinking about these things. Like how to pay for yeshiva and bills and groceries etc. If our community produces only learners the entire system will fail because nobody would be able to pay for the school’s existence.

    So, before you type another 60 hurried words as a response, maybe take that minute to absorb what has been said in this post and try to see that perspective. You may thank us in the long run

    #765307
    yid.period
    Member

    HIE

    how is your hebrew dik duk? Is it important to learn dikduk well?

    Also, what is your long-term plan for supporting a family, just wondering? What kind of job do you expect to have?

    #765308
    ZachKessin
    Member

    HIE,

    habits are important, getting into the practice of good grammar is important, sooner or later you will be writing for something more important than an internet forum. It might be something for work or a job application, or even a chance to write a book.

    I will tell you that after 15 years in computer programming the most important skill I have is being able to write well. (And if you go to amazon and type my name in you will see a book I wrote)

    #765309
    Mayan_Dvash
    Participant

    HIE:

    I hope you got it!

    #765310
    Mayan_Dvash
    Participant

    HIE: A lot of trig, especially on the high school level, can be broken down to sin() Cos(), and then just remember SoaCahToa.

    Details to follow on request

    ;

    #765311
    HIE
    Participant

    yid.period, my life plan? I plan to stay in kollel for my entire life getting supported by my future father-in-law. I will put a price tag on myself when I am going dating that I only take life support.

    LOL, I actually plan on becoming an OT. My dikduk is OK.

    Working on it: You seem to think that I have very little education. If you would know the top quality teachers I have and the strictness and rigorous testing of my secular studies department, you wouldn’t be talking the way you are now. I actually probably have a better English then most of those posting here. My attitude towards secular studies is actually very positive. I try very hard to take it seriously, and my regent marks show it. When I take my English Regent in a year or so I’ll let you know what I get on it.

    Wolf: The real question is: If your’e such a busy guy as you claim to be, having to work, raise a family and so on, how can you spend so many hours on here in the first place? If you do have the time to spend so much time here you also have the time to spend a couple extra seconds “decoding” my posts.

    In general I spend approximately 3-4 hours a week on here, and that is all on weekends, because I am in yeshiva the whole week. Now I’m here because I wasn’t feeling well the past two days.

    #765312
    HIE
    Participant

    It’s quite interesting. All you people here think you know it all. You think you know exactly what’s going on in the yeshivos, although you haven’t been there in years. Very interesting to note!

    #765313
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf: The real question is: If your’e such a busy guy as you claim to be, having to work, raise a family and so on, how can you spend so many hours on here in the first place? If you do have the time to spend so much time here you also have the time to spend a couple extra seconds “decoding” my posts.

    How I spend my time is none of your business. This doesn’t change the fact that you seem to feel that your time is more valuable than the time of others. Despite how busy I am, I take the time to make sure that my posts are legible and easily understandable. In other words, I try to make things easier on my readers, not more difficult, because I respect their time (and intelligence).

    The Wolf

    #765314
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    “just remember SoaCahToa.”

    Isn’t it SoHCaHToa?

    But I was never good at math, so what do I know.

    #765315
    HIE
    Participant

    mayan dvash, can you give me your email address

    #765316
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It’s quite interesting. All you people here think you know it all. You think you know exactly what’s going on in the yeshivos, although you haven’t been there in years. Very interesting to note!

    It’s quite interesting. You seem to think you know it all. You think you know exactly which subject will and will not be useful in future life, even though you do not have any life experience beyond high school. You also seem to believe yourself to be an expert on educational curricula, even though you have absolutely no training in it whatsoever. Very interesting to note!

    The Wolf

    #765317
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Most of the Trig year was actually Algebra II

    Algebra is certainly quite important

    #765320
    HIE
    Participant

    “It’s quite interesting. You seem to think you know it all. You think you know exactly which subject will and will not be useful in future life, even though you do not have any life experience beyond high school. You also seem to believe yourself to be an expert on educational curricula, even though you have absolutely no training in it whatsoever. Very interesting to note!”

    It’s also interesting to note that you think you know it all, having been in only one profession. I have spoke to many people in many different areas regarding this and therefore have come up with what I say. You come out of the blue, thinking you “KNOW IT ALL”. Very interesting to note!

    #765322
    MDG
    Participant

    HIE,

    Just go study and stop complaining and stop looking for excuses.

    You claim that you school is good at education, but you show a lack of appreciation for education. A lack of appreciation for education usually goes with poor education, whether secular or l’havdil Kodesh.

    BTW, I agree with Wolf that you think that you know it all. You are not the first high school kid that thinks that way. Not even the millionth.

    #765323
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It’s also interesting to note that you think you know it all, having been in only one profession.

    Wrong. I have done MANY things in my varied life.

    I have spoke to many people in many different areas regarding this and therefore have come up with what I say.

    As opposed to me who sits in a cave by myself and talks to no one??? I *do* have three kids in high school right now. I am pretty well versed with what goes on in high school and I have spoken with many other parents, teachers, principals and other people as well.

    You come out of the blue, thinking you “KNOW IT ALL”. Very interesting to note!

    On the contrary, YOU are the one who thinks they “KNOW IT ALL” while seeing things from only the student’s side. Grow up, become a parent of high schoolers, gain some life experience and then come back and let us know if you still feel the same way.

    The Wolf

    #765324
    yid.period
    Member

    HIE

    you’re exposing yourself further as a high school student and not an adult.

    It is silly to assume WolfishMusings hasnt spoken to people in other professionals as well.

    Regardless, working in one profession and being in the professional world for years makes him much more qualified to be worthy of an opinion on the subject, than you, my dear boy.

    Rav Schechter once said in basically these words “To have an opinion you need to be entitled to an opinion, and not everyone is entitled to an opinion…”

    #765325
    Working on it
    Participant

    What I think is interesting is how you addressed this forum to seek opinions and then get upset with the opinions provided.

    Secondly, there are at least a couple dozen people that seem to disagree with you. You wrote to WOLF that he is commenting based on a singular experience but the others are coming from a variety of experiences and they are saying the same thing. Doesn’t that make you stop and think for a second that there is something to it? Then again, what can we possibly know that you don’t?

    #765326
    HIE
    Participant

    “Just go study and stop complaining and stop looking for excuses”

    I’m actually trying to study at the moment

    It’s a total chutzpah to say i’m not entitled to an opinion. I have been on this forum for longer then any of you little shnuks

    #765327
    gregaaron
    Member

    @Wolf

    Dunno what the Wikipedia writer was on, er, referring to, but I have a Masters in psychology and am in the midst of the doctorate program and have yet to have had a use for any trig (which is good, because I didn’t know it in high school, and don’t know it now). Statistics yes, but not trig.

    @Charlie

    I forgot the Rav you mentioned who earned a PhD in chemistry (I’m not going to go looking for it again), but I doubt he would say chemistry is an important topic for every single person to know.

    @Midwest2

    CHILL! If HIE wants to use texting language on this forum, what’s it to you? And you people say New Yorkers are uptight…This isn’t a medical journal, there’s no problem with using “cuz”.

    #765328
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I have been on this forum for longer then any of you little shnuks

    Again with the name calling. So, you’ve proven that in addition to being an arrogant-know-it-all, you also have bad middos and don’t know how to argue civilly.

    I have been on this forum for longer then any of you

    Oh, and you obviously don’t know how to compare dates.

    WolfishMusings: member since Jan 24, 2008

    HIE: member since October 1, 2009 (profile Hashem-Is-Everywhere)

    See, you may have missed this while studying for the trigonometry test, but 2008 is BEFORE 2009. In other words, I’ve been here about twice as long as you have.

    The Wolf

    #765329
    HIE
    Participant

    gregaaron, thank you for the support, finally someone is normal here and talking from experience. OK, WOLF???

    #765330
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Dunno what the Wikipedia writer was on, er, referring to, but I have a Masters in psychology and am in the midst of the doctorate program and have yet to have had a use for any trig (which is good, because I didn’t know it in high school, and don’t know it now). Statistics yes, but not trig.

    That’s a fair point. I don’t think that trigonometry is necessary for EVERY aspect of those fields, but it COULD be used in those fields (and, in at least some cases, may well be required).

    The Wolf

    #765331
    HIE
    Participant

    wolf, i used to be torah tziva, and yros26 before that. yros26 was the first screen name i had, and if i recall, i registered with that screen name just a bit before you.

    #765332
    adorable
    Participant

    I am not sure how the english really works but I know that my brother is having regents now and the school got some teacher to come in and teach them everything that they have to know for the regents. so the whole year was wasted? i dont think he learnt one thing the entire year….

    #765333
    HIE
    Participant

    the trig learned in high school is useful/necessary for almost ZERO fields.

    #765334
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    gregaaron, thank you for the support, finally someone is normal

    Are you implying that I am not normal?

    here and talking from experience. OK, WOLF???

    I addressed him in my last post. Just because he does not use it in his field, that does not mean that it has no applicability at all in any of those fields.

    I work in databases, and I manage to get along fine without knowing about vertical partitioning of tables across federated servers, but that doesn’t mean that it has no applicability in the world of databases. It just means that I have yet to run across the need for it (although I may someday do so).

    The Wolf

    #765335
    yid.period
    Member

    HIE

    how long you have been on “Yeshiva World” is irrelevant. I’m not sure why you brought that up.

    What matters is the thoroughness of your life experience, of which you have none. It is not a personal attack; it’s just a fact that should be considered before you call into question the validity of Wolf’s statements.

    #765336
    HIE
    Participant

    adorable, what grade?

    #765337
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    wolf, i used to be torah tziva, and yros26 before that. yros26 was the first screen name i had, and if i recall, i registered with that screen name just a bit before you.

    Post a link to the profile proving it. I searched for yros26 and got a “user not found” error.

    Nonetheless, even if you’re right on this point, you’ve still proven yourself to be someone who does not know how to argue civilly, especially since this isn’t the first time you’ve called me a “little shnuk.” Apparently respect for one’s elders (even if you disagree with them), basic derech eretz and middos tovos aren’t taught in your yeshiva.

    The Wolf

    #765338
    HIE
    Participant

    wolf, as i said earlier, you obviously don’t know what the current trigonometry course includes. I don’t mean to say that nothing in the current course is useful, but what I do mean to imply is that a good portion or maybe even the majority of the current trig course is useless, in 99.99999% of fields. You are just assuming that trig is a hard subject that i’m not interested in learning, so i’m just saying it’s useless. So you’re just replying and saying that it’s useful like everything is. FALSE. IT’S USELESS.

    #765339
    adorable
    Participant

    9th grade… in a local school I am happy for him that after a whole day of working hard in the morning he got to relax during English. I am sure he will pass the regents but just found it funny….

    #765341
    HIE
    Participant

    adorable, that is quite interesting. In 9th grade I had fantastic teachers so I hardly had to study for my regents, and i did quite well.

    #765342
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    You are just assuming that trig is a hard subject that i’m not interested in learning, so i’m just saying it’s useless.

    I made no such assumption. I accused you of ignorance and inexperience, not laziness. Please don’t accuse me of things that you don’t have proof of.

    wolf, as i said earlier, you obviously don’t know what the current trigonometry course includes

    So then educate me, please. You’ve stated numerous times that the content of the trigonometry course has changed since I took it. Very well, so please tell me what has changed. What is being taught now that was not taught when I took the course back in the late 1980s? And how is that additional content useless?

    The Wolf

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