July 19, 2015 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #616046
Why is it acceptable for those learning with seforim in a bais medrash to just leave them lying around? I am aware that someone is assigned the job of putting them away, but why can’t those using them, do it themselves. For someone looking for a sefer, it is a terrible bitul zman. I am sorry to say that I have observed this practice of not returning seforim even in elementary school’s makom tefilah. Why don’t the rebbeim train them and insist they return seforim?July 19, 2015 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1095553mik5Participant
Rabbi Zilberstein has a whole list of the aveiros that one transgresses when he doesn’t put away seforim properly.July 19, 2015 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1095554
Who said it is acceptable? Is everything that happens considered acceptable? If something is done wrong that doesn’t make it the rebbeim’s fault for not having taught them. Some people are taught well but still don’t behave correctly.July 19, 2015 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #1095555
Maybe tolerated is a better word, but then it’s just semantics. In any case, if the hanhalah of a yeshiva did not tolerate it, it would not be happening as it would fall into the category of other behavior that would not be tolerated in a yeshiva.July 19, 2015 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1095556
If a yeshiva student comes late to davening does that mean the yeshiva is happy about it? Should they put students in detention for arriving 9:05 or leaving the sefer out?July 19, 2015 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1095557
leaving a sefer out? How about dozens of seforim out? Why are you defending their behavior?July 19, 2015 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1095558
No one’s defending the behavior. Everyone here criticized it and rightfully so. But you are wrong to blame the rebbeim.
Do you blame the parents if it was done in the neighborhood shul?July 19, 2015 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1095559🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
Joseph, you are just playing devils advocate. If it wasn’t acceptable, it wouldn’t happen. You don’t have to punish people to make it stop, you just need to make it an expectation.
When I served hot lunch the kids left the tables a wreck. They threw stuff around during lunch and left everything as it was when they were done. The teachers just took them back to class and the kitchen staff cleaned. If they were told everyday that they would leave the lunch room as soon as the tables were clear, it would have happened.
You make a bar for them to rise to. It’s not an extra special midda to clean up after yourself.July 19, 2015 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #1095560
Syag: How do you absolve the kids’ parents in your case?July 19, 2015 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #1095561
The rebbeim are in charge of their students and are responsible not only to teach them Torah but to reinforce what their parents should e teaching them about derech eretz, respect for seforim and the bais medrish and all other matters related to their duties as a teacher. The parents are not present in school to see their kids’ behavior, but indeed if the parents are in shul with their kids they should instruct them to return seforim, but they may be just as guilty as the kids.July 19, 2015 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #1095562Torah613TorahParticipant
People think, “I’m not leaving seforim around. I’ll just put it down for a minute while I stop to talk to someone or get a coffee break.”
Then they forget and leave it.
Most people aren’t deliberately trying to disrespect the seforim.July 19, 2015 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #1095563
T613: I don’t know how you know that. So many thoughtless people? Hard to imagine. Still it does not excuse them from ever returning them. If this happens to the extent that so many seforim are left out, so how much learning is really going on?July 19, 2015 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #1095564
Everyone agrees that it’s wrong. I’m not really sure what there is to discuss about this.July 19, 2015 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #1095565
If everyone felt it was wrong, someone would have taken so action about just as do in other issues. So maybe not everyone sees it as wrong. I started the thread to raise the issue, no different from what other threads do.July 20, 2015 4:48 am at 4:48 am #1095566
So you think that people think it’s perfectly fine? So find those people and ask them why. (You won’t, because they don’t exist, and Torah613Torah is correct that it’s thoughtlessness not malice, but incorrect that the issue is disrespecting the seforim. It’s mostly a bein adam l’chaveiro issue).July 20, 2015 5:05 am at 5:05 am #1095567July 20, 2015 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1095568lesschumrasParticipant
DY, if you think there is nothing to discuss here, then, will all due respect, I suggest you follow the advice you gave me with regard to Chalav Yisroel.July 20, 2015 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1095569catch yourselfParticipant
Syag is absolutely correct that if an expectation or social norm exists, no punishment would be necessary to induce students to clean up after themselves. It is also true that if one does not exist, a punishment would not be especially effective.
I cannot explain how it happened that in many Shuls and Batei Medrash it is socially acceptable to leave seforim out. It is, however, self perpetuating. People do it because people do it. In this way, it is similar to talking during Davening, speaking Lashon Hora and so many other issues.
When I was in high school, the Rosh Yeshiva (who was recognised as one of the Gedolei Hador) would stand at the door of the dining room at the end of meals. If he saw a boy walking away from the table without his plate, he would fix the problem.
My own (elementary age) students know that in my classroom, making or leaving a mess is simply not done.
With all this said, and at the risk of sounding somewhat repetitive, I feel the need to point out that it is far worse to denigrate an entire class of people, be it those who use the seforim or their Rebbeim, than it is to leave the seforim out.
To be sure, it is perfectly fine to raise awareness on this issue, but let’s please exercise caution as the conversation continues, not to descend into the wholesale character assassination of Lomdei Torah.July 20, 2015 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #1095570TheGoqParticipant
When i was in elementary school (many moons ago) there was an incident where some students made a mess of the bathroom they wet paper towels and threw them at the wall and ceilings anyhow at lunch that day the principal a very principled man! held a school meeting in the cafeteria and told us how we should respect the bathroom and told us how he had visited a friend in the hospital who could not go to the bathroom and how much pain he was in because of that and how we should be thankful to HKBH for the ability to do so i can’t speak for anyone else there that day but this story impacted me greatly this is how you teach middos!August 11, 2015 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #1095572NeutiquamErroParticipant
General point for all those wishing to indicate a point of derech eretz or the like, such as this issue or the litter issue:
Feel free to point out the issue, the causes, the severity and possible solutions. But to sign of, as some have done, by blaming ‘The Rabbis’, indicates a seperate problem that is far more serious. Basically that blaming this issue on ‘Rabbis’ is a sign of somebody trying to apportion blame where it is undeserved. It is an issue, perhaps, but to try and pin a relatively small issue like litter on Rabbonim is wrong. Perhaps they can make a stand, but blaming every minor problem on them is absolving personal responsibility, and stems from misplaced animosity. Not always, but sometimes.August 12, 2015 1:11 am at 1:11 am #1095573HaLeiViParticipant
In many places there are signs explaining that it is not acceptable. But hey, is Lashon Hara acceptable? But yet, it exists.
Perhaps nobody really leaves it out. They only do it when they are in an extreme rush, it is only an exception. Somehow, though, this exception is the rule.August 12, 2015 8:25 am at 8:25 am #1095574Abba_SParticipant
This is nothing new, when ever I see Siddurium or Chummashim lying on the table around me when I come to shul before davening. I put them back on the shelves. I only do it for the 5-10 tables near my seat.
Once one person does a few, others will follow and soon they are all back on their shelf. The problem is that it may be hard to find the right place, so if they are labeled with a shelf number or color coded it increases the possibility of it getting done. I have seen custodial staff putting them back.
You can either complain about the problem or do something about it. If you put just a “Few Seforuim” back others will see and follow suit. But if you do not put any back, nobody else will.
You are either part of the solution or part of the problem.August 12, 2015 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1095575blubluhParticipant
The rav of my shul has given a few mussar shmusim about those who leave used tissues for others to, um, “enjoy”.
As improper it is to habitually neglect returning seforim to their proper place, I think the tissue thing is far worse (ugh!).August 12, 2015 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1095576Abba_SParticipant
There are signs in my shul reminding people to deposit used tissues in the wastepaper basket, but when I find a used one where I am sitting before davening, I just take another tissue pick it up and deposit it in it’s proper place.
You can waste a lot of time looking for a sefer but it only takes seconds to throw out a tissue even if it’s not yours.
Please note, if everyone who doesn’t put back a sefer and everyone who doesn’t throw out their used tissues didn’t come to shul,there might not be enough people to make a minyan. I am not complaining about either of these types, I am thankful that they come to shul.
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