Selling a Sefer to a Non-Orthodox "Synagogue"

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  • #607182
    farrocks
    Member

    Is it prohibited to sell a Sefer Torah, a Talis or even a regular sefer to a non-Orthodox “synagogue”, considering that they don’t give it the proper decorum required?

    #910346
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Most sofrim obviously are frum and they sell Sifrei Torah to non-Orthodox synagogues all the time.

    #910347
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Joseph, what decorum does a talis need exactly?

    Whilst we don’t, you are allowed to take it into a bathroom

    #910348
    Englishman
    Member

    The frei shuls often use their own non-Orthodox authors, including female “soferets”, to write their sifrei Torahs, which undoubtedly are pasul.

    If a real Sofer (i.e. Orthodox) wrote a Sefer Torah for them, something I cannot understand how they can justify in the first place, I would certainly hope he pasuls it during the writing from it being a real Sefer, as the recipients will undoubtedly mistreat it in many cruel ways.

    #910349
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You can buy Seforim on Amazon and ebay. In fact if you read the reviews of the Stone Chumash on Amazon you will see some of the reveiwers werent even jewsish.

    You can also buy kosher sefer torah on ebay or estate sales where they are sold to the highest bidder (and maybe even be legally required to by a bankruptcy court)

    #910350
    Englishman
    Member

    That doesn’t make it permissible. While it’s true it may sometimes happen and we can’t prevent it, that doesn’t provide license to anyone to actually facilitate providing a Sefer Torah to a party that will be mechallel it. (By having unclean women handle it or various other ways.)

    As far as a Chumash, I’m not sure how problematic it is to facilitate providing it to people there is a strong chance will C”V bring it into a restroom or otherwise disgrace it. Obviously a Sefer Torah is a bigger issue than a Chumash or Sefer.

    #910351
    avi e
    Participant

    If a real Sofer (i.e. Orthodox) wrote a Sefer Torah for them, something I cannot understand how they can justify in the first place, I would certainly hope he pasuls it during the writing from it being a real Sefer, as the recipients will undoubtedly mistreat it in many cruel ways.

    Of all the things that non-Orthodox synagogues do that don’t conform to halacha, they tend to be very good about maintaining the kavod of a sefer torah. We shouldn’t assume that they will “mistreat it in many cruel ways” just because other things they do are not correct. To the contrary, many of these congregations are very makpid to show proper kavod to their sifrei torah. Furthermore, as regards to why a sofer would write a sefer torah for a non-Orthodox congregation, consider this: The congregants in such a shul are going to not be fulfilling many mitzvos in shul, and almost certainly will not be fulfilling many mitzvos outside of shul. Shouldn’t the sofer make it possible for them to hear leyning from a kosher sefer torah? Or is it our job to deprive other Jews of the opportunity to do mitzvos just because they associate with organizations of which we don’t approve?

    #910352
    Englishman
    Member

    It’s rather doubtful that when a nidda touches and “leins” from a Sefer Torah that can be described as giving any kavod to the Sefer.

    #910353
    Ðash®
    Participant

    What about a Tomei Meis whis is a greater Tumah than Niddah?

    The actual reason that women don’t Lein is because it is insulting to the men present that they are unable to Lein.

    #910354
    rebdoniel
    Member

    There is no halakhic issue with a niddah handling a sefer torah whatsoever.

    #910355
    gotbeer
    Member

    My non-Jewish Spanish friend showed me a video of a drama/play they did in his church (I only found out later it was a church as opposed to an auditorium). Anyway how, in the play, G-d was wearing a white/sfardi tallis with fringes. I told him that I was very upset bc it doesn’t belong with non-Jews.

    #910356
    brachavehatzlocha
    Participant

    Englishman, while I agree in general that there is little kavod in selling a sefer to such a place, why do you keep harping on niddos? There’s no particular issur for a niddah to lein or even handle a sefer Torah.

    I would venture to guess that the most common prohibition transgressed would be people handling it who aren’t dressed properly.

    #910357
    Toi
    Participant

    avi e- the entire objective of these people is to entirely rip out any authentic yiddishkeit from their religion. could you imagine the pain in shomayim when people who aim to make judaism “just another faith” read from the very sefer torah they spit and trample on when they purposely violate halachah countless times a day?

    #910359
    shmoel
    Member

    The Rema in Orach Chaim clearly says a nidds shouldn’t touch a Sefer Torah. (Also brought in Piskei Teshuvos.) The Shulchan Aruch / Mishna Brura says a nidda shouldn’t even look at a Sefer Torah when it is opened and raised for hagba.

    #910360

    Dash: Actually the tuma of a nida is more chamur than that of a temei meis. But you’re a woman so I will not teach you torah.

    #910361

    Dash: Actually the tuma of a nida is more chamur than that of a temei meis. But you’re a woman so I will not teach you torah.

    #910362
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Berachos 22a says that the words of torah cannot become defiled. It is merely a matter of minhag when certain persons disallow a woman from handling a sefer torah. The Rambam says explicitly: Any impure person, even [a woman in] a niddah state or a gentile, may hold a Torah scroll and read it. The words of Torah do not contract ritual impurity. This applies when one’s hands are not soiled or dirty with mud. [In the latter instance,] one should wash one’s hands and then touch the scroll. (Hilchos tefillin, mezuzah, sefer torah perek yud, halacha het)

    #910363
    k9hora
    Member

    Rabbi Moshe Feinstein zt”l allows for a new one to be sold but not one that was already used in an orthodox shul.

    BTW: let us be honest. if a Holy Torah is being leined from and the people talk, but are orthodox and in a conservative place during leining they are quiet, who is according the Torah less honour?

    #910364
    ready now
    Participant

    A Sefer Torah may not be sold or given to anyone who is not a fully observant Jew. Regular seforim and taleisim may be sold to anyone.

    #910365
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I wonder if people have the same atittude towards non-othodox when it comes to collecting.

    Dont want to give them a sefer torah for fear of defilement that is fine, but then dont take their defiled money either

    #910366
    Ðash®
    Participant

    But you’re a woman so I will not teach you torah.

    I wonder what makes you say that, I’ve been pretty careful not to reveal any personal information about myself.

    #910367
    ready now
    Participant

    ZD: King Solomon said “Tzedakah saves from death” (Proverbs 10:2).

    Repeating – A Sefer Torah may not be sold or given to anyone who is not a fully observant Jew. Regular seforim and taleisim may be sold to anyone.

    ZD: Why are you so “anti” ( not that there is any good reason). This is a rhetorical question.

    #910368
    brachavehatzlocha
    Participant

    Not to belabor this issue, but the Shulchan Aruch in Yoreh Deah poskens quite clearly like the Rambam mentioned above regarding Niddas holding or reading from a Sefer Torah. The Rema may be machmir, or he may actually disagree lhalacha. I’ll have to look into it further.

    #910369
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Dash: How did you get your link to do that? *is impressed*

    #910370
    rebdoniel
    Member

    There is no reason to hold like the Rama unlike the Rambam.

    I attend shuls where the sefer torah is handed to a woman to carry through the women’s section, which I find to be more appropriate than the male chazzan carrying it through the ezras nashim (they do this at the Carlebach Shul) or women not having the opportunity to kiss the sefer torah at all, which is just sad.

    And, the above is correct. Megillah 23b says explicitly that where there is no issue of kavod hatzibur, women can have aliyos and lein. R’ Daniel Sperber, a great poseq and gadol betorah, is the poseq for Darkhei Noam Minyan on the Upper West Side, where women lein and have aliyos. Granted, other members of my hashqafic sphere aren’t crazy about this (like R’ Saul Berman and R’ Shlomo Riskin), but nonetheless, lo rainu eino ra’ayah.

    #910371
    old man
    Participant

    The advice that a niddah should avoid looking at or holding a Sefer Torah is kabbalistic, not halachic. Hence the difference of opinion on this matter.

    #910372
    Ðash®
    Participant

    Dash: How did you get your link to do that? *is impressed*

    Looks like I have to abandon this profile as it has been compromised.

    So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.

    #910373
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    OOM, any other Jospeh’s you want me to “compromise”? ^_^

    #910374
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Aw, Dash isn’t Joseph…Joseph would never quote HGTTG. 😛

    #910375
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    darchei noam lol

    You should quit while you’re ahead. Next thing you’ll tell us you’re a Jews for J. That would be about equally close to torah judaism.

    #910376
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    RN

    I am not anti-anything, I am for not diverting from the torah on the left or on the RIGHT

    #910377
    rebdoniel
    Member

    That is pretty extreme, PBA.

    Darkhei Noam operates within full halakhic parameters.

    Lo rainu eino ra’ayah.

    And for you to compare good torah Jews to vicious Christian missionaries who prey on Jews is absolutely reprehensible.

    #910378
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    RN,

    I don’t think it is because he is anti, rather I think it is because he is lacking.

    #910379
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Not so extreme. Extreme would be if I wantonly discarded any Jewish practices which didn’t accord with my personal views on morality.

    You like to say that: ?? ????? ???? ????. In fact, it seems that to many of the Avi Weiss type, ?? ????? is in fact a ????–to do it!

    In any event, the poskim (maharik, shach, cf. rema, igor) say that by minhagim lo rainu is a raiah. Thus, Rema paskens that women do not shecht since that is the minhag. Beis Yosef asks that lo rainu eino raiah, and shach answers that since it is a minhag, lo rainu is indeed a raiah.

    Which makes me wonder. How come none of these liberated women want to become shochtim?

    #910380
    rebdoniel
    Member

    There is no issur of a woman becoming a shochet, and the arguments against it, quit frankly, fall flat.

    Comparing Jews to the left of you with Christian missionaries is highly unwarranted and inflammatory conduct.

    Minhagim also spells gehinnam. Hazal and the Rambam, among others, do not hold like those mostly Ashkenazic authorities you cite.

    And, it is funny you mention shechita. I spoke with a Hassidishe shochet who trains in ofot and he said that for unmarried men and non-Satmar men, it is enormously difficult to get any work, since Empire and Rubashkin both use Nirbarter hashgacha.

    #910381
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    pba, you can also add the psak of the Chassam Sofer

    ??? ???? ?? ?????

    i feel that it very much applies to this discussion

    #910382
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There is no issur of a woman becoming a shochet, and the arguments against it, quit frankly, fall flat.

    The arguments against it? I’ll give you one–the Rema says so.

    See, there is a very wide difference between my Judaism and the one you espouse. We aren’t practicing the same religion. I don’t know why you keep insisting that we are.

    Minhagim also spells gehinnam.

    Presumably to signify that one who abrogates minhagim will go to gehenom.

    Hazal and the Rambam, among others, do not hold like those mostly Ashkenazic authorities you cite.

    We follow Rema before the Rambam. Particularly where the minhag likely developed in the time in between.

    #910383
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I practice the religion of Hazal and the Rambam, the religion of the sacred book.

    Your faith is that of men, not G-d, and you care about the sacred look above all.

    #910384
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I practice the religion of Hazal and the Rambam, the religion of the sacred book.

    Your faith is that of men, not G-d, and you care about the sacred look above all.

    Thank you for making that explicit. It makes conversation so much easier. And now you should certainly concur with me that we practice a different religion. And you should probably not eat my shechita or kashrus, and should understand why I won’t eat yours.

    #910385
    just my hapence
    Participant

    And you should probably not eat my shechita or kashrus, and should understand why I won’t eat yours.

    PBA – That’s probably true both ways. As is clear from other threads, rebdoniel is sephardi. So you wouldn’t eat his shechita as many sephardi still do nikkur, and he definitely wouldn’t have yours as he would need chalak bet yosef, where most of our meat is simply glatt.

    #910386
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    You say “I spoke with a Hassidishe shochet who trains in ofot and he said that for unmarried men and non-Satmar men, it is enormously difficult to get any work, since Empire and Rubashkin both use Nirbarter hashgacha.”

    One of you is lying (Or more likely rthe story is made up). The facts do not support this in the least. (regarding non-satmar) There is a long held minhag not to hire a bochur as a shochet. Nothing to do with Satmar.

    #910387
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    just my hapence,

    rebdaniel has mentioned a number of hashgachas that he eats from (because he “doesn’t paly hashgacha politics”). Those hashgachas do not even require plain glatt, let alone Beis Yosef glatt. Go look at his list, it’s a fact and easy to verify. Perhaps he is sephardi, but apparently he does not follow halacha according to sephardi p’sak.

    #910388
    just my hapence
    Participant

    nishdayngesheft – I haven’t seen this list you’re referring to, and even if I had It probably wouldn’t mean much to me, I’m English. If it is indeed the case that rebdoniel eats non-chalak then that would seem to run counter to his Rambam and Mechaber shitto. Incidentally, I think it’s rather rude to accuse someone of deliberate falsehood simply because you may not agree with what they say. Your constant ad hominems are growing rather tiresome…

    #910389
    ready now
    Participant
    #910390
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Happen acne,

    Pointing out gross errors or lies are not ad hominem attacks. Neither is calling someone out on a patent falsehood. They are pointing out discrepancies. Referring to proof of your error as ad hominem is deflection.

    #910391
    Loyal Jew
    Member

    All these posts ignore the fact that we are at war with the non-frum and the feminists. Even where heters exist, they weren’t meant for our time and should not be used. That goes for any contact with treif “shuls,” let alone selling them anything, and for allowing klei kodesh who aren’t men, touching a sefer Torah, shochtim etc.

    #910392
    Josh31
    Participant

    If the shul does not get its financial act together a Bankruptcy Judge (not the YWN coffee room) will decide who gets to buy the Sefer Torah!!!

    Loyal Jew, who issued this formal declaration of war?

    #910393
    just my hapence
    Participant

    Right, I’m fed up. If you try and play for cheap laughs by messing around my screen name, achiv ani berama’uso:

    nishtinganzenkop – It is an ad hominem attack because you attack the person, not the argument. If, as you believe, the story is untrue there is no need to say it in a manner which is directed at the individual. You could, for example, simply say “in my experience of shochtim I have never come across such a thing, but I do know etc.”. This would then present your point of view and expose what you believe to be false without resorting to name calling. In addition, you would have to bring some form of evidence to back up your claim; simply saying “you’re a liar” just isn’t good enough.

    #910394
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I only eat beit yosef meat. Pic N Pay meat meets these standards, since I know Rabbi Gavrielov and ask him she’eilas.

    I will eat only milchigs and vegetarian or vegan food from hashgachas such as the IKC and Tablet K. I do not eat Hebrew National because I follow halak beit yosef.

    I would also like to keep yashan, and this is something I am working towards, since yashan is a d’oraita (unlike pat yisrael, which we treat with greater leniency).

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