- This topic has 55 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 2 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
I’m supposed to be going to sem soon, except my parents are freaking out. They want me to stay home because of the current events in Israel. Now, that’s not really a possibility.. Anyone else in the same boat as me? How do I fight this? Any tips would greatly be appreciated!!!
Oy, that is really disappointing… I’ll leave the advice to those more knowledgable than me, but I just want to tell you that you’re definitely not alone in this situation!
Keep your head up!
I almost posted the same thing, except that I have no hesitations about going.
My dad pointed out that statistically, I’m more likely to have something happen to me in NYC than in Yerushalayim and that driving home from our family vacation last night was more dangerous than my flight to Israel will be. Statistics are, of course, not infallible and these things do have common characteristics and clusters which make statistics unreliable, but his point still stands. I don’t believe that I’m that much less safe in Israel. There is less SECURITY, there is more DOUBT, but there is no less safety in terms of mortality. There’s an availability bias as far as terrorism is concerned, but technically, the odds of a person being harmed in a terrorism attack in Israel are lower than the odds of being harmed in a car accident there, and the odds of being harmed in a car accident there are very similar to the odds of the same thing happening here.
Eretz Yisrael is an amazing place and sem is a once-in-a-lifetime experience. Of course, as the ones paying (presumably) it is your parents’ prerogative as far as what to do, but as long as your seminary has been in contact as far as the safety measures that they have put in place for the coming year, I think that it is more than reasonable to allow you to go to sem with a feeling of security.
Writersoul:
While it may be true that statistically you are more likely to be harmed in a car accident than in a terrorist attack, most people don’t spend their days worrying about car accidents, but they do worry when rockets are landing around them. There could be several reasons for that. It might be because people feel like they have some amount of control when it comes to cars whereas rockets are completely out of their control. That might also be why people are generally more afraid of flying than driving. It could also be that driving is part of daily life whereas terrorist attacks are not. Conceivably then it is possible to “get used to” terrorist attacks as well. Another difference is that rockets inspire fear. You here a siren and you have some amount of time warning and during that time you are terrified that you might die/get harmed. By a car, you either get into an accident or you don’t. Everything else aside, you are probably safer in Israel because the Gemara in Berachos (8a) says ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ???
which would indicate (notwithstanding perhaps some interpretations of later acharonim) that Israel is better for long life. But you might have to factor in other things such as putting yourself in a dangerous situation.
PAA: What all of those basically come down to is what people FEEL, not what’s actually true. Worry makes sense on a visceral level, but it doesn’t on a logical one. While the OP’s parents don’t need my permission to make this decision on a visceral level, I’m simply pointing out that if she wants to make a case, there is plenty of material for her.
Just an addendum about one of your points- yes, people do get used to the rockets. I was in camp with several Israeli girls who (obviously) kept in constant contact with their families in rocket-prone areas in Israel. Hearing about the constancy of the rockets in such a casual way both kind of freaked me out and helped me see the whole thing as less of a big deal. While you’re right that the panic of the situation is hard, seeing how so many people are simply living normal lives- the same way that iyH I will be in sem- helped me realize that I had to start seeing these things a different way. Of course, a situation where rocket attacks are so routine that people are immune is a sick and twisted one, but the point still stands.
I do, however, agree with your point about the panic and fear of the unknown. People do not dwell on whether there will be a car accident at any given moment, while they do have specific moments- like sirens- in which there is a fear. At the end of the day, though, the material risk is quite low.
“PAA: What all of those basically come down to is what people FEEL, not what’s actually true.”
I completely agree. However people often make decisions based on how they feel. Even if they are factually/statistically incorrect these people are coming from somewhere. When Awaitingdawn’s parents hear that a rocketlanded in Yerushalayim (or whatever city her seminary is in) they will immediately freak out and worry that their daughter was killed. They will probably immediately call her to make sure she is ok. If she doesn’t answer her phone, the panic will increase exponentially. For whatever reason, this will not happen when they hear that there was a car accident. People are generally more nervous about having their kids in a war-zone than in a peace-zone, regardless of the respective likelihoods of danger. In fact we can do an experiment. Your father seems to understand that you are in no greater danger. Ask him what his gut reaction would be if he heard that a rocket landed in your area. I think it will be different than if he heard that there was a car accident. Now he might recover in a matter of seconds by forcing his intellect to overcome his emotions. But not everyone is as capable of doing that. Again, I am not arguing with you at all; I am just pointing out why parents might be worried.
awaitingdawn: writersoul is right. The bottom line is, that Israel is safe. Things happen everywhere and you have to be diligent no matter where you are.
Hopefully, your seminary will educate you as to the proper behaviors. While I won’t go into Arab communities, I have to drive through an Arab business district. B”H, we have not had any problems. This is our Country, Hashem is with us. Be wise in what you do, but have no fear of coming here.
In general I troll around in the background when it comes to CR but for this question I specifically registered to post a reply.
As a parent of a son in yeshiva in EY and a daughter going back for shana bet my 2 cents is as follows – I have complete emuna that as long as my children are doing what they are supposed to be doing where they are supposed to be doing it, whatever happens is what is supposed to happen – no matter where they are. This is especially evident in the past weeks and today as we see certain events unfolding that seem to make no sense to us.
I am often reminded of the family that left Efrat during the Intifada to go to Yerushalayim for a break from the violence and were victims of the Sbarros suicide bomber – lo aleinu. Our job is to do HaShem’s ratzon to the best of our ability and leave the rest up to HKB”H.
HaShem has His plans and it is up to us to do the right thing with complete confidence and menuchas hanefesh that HaShem is in control.
If it is really causing a machlokes in the family, perhaps you should ask your Rav – assuming, of course, that everybody involved is willing to live w/the answer. The guidance of daas Torah is reassuring and the key to many shalom bayis issues.
Wishing you hatzlocha.
As a father of both sons and daughters who learned ion Israel,
i can tell you that the seminaries are much more cautious and protective of the girls.
All seminaries require that the girls have cell service from the seminaries chosen provider. this allows the seminary to end out mass texts and calls to all girls at once.
Seminaries have curfews, yeshivas don’t.
Seminaries require the girls to tell them where they are spending Shabbos AND WITH WHOM, yeshivas don’t.
Seminaries take the girls on ORGANIZED tiyulim, most yeshivas don’t.
All in all, if you are going to a seminary in Yerushalayim and don’t do crazy things, like going to Petra or Cairo, you will be fine.
Hatzlacha rabba
“but technically, the odds of a person being harmed in a terrorism attack in Israel are lower than the odds of being harmed in a car accident there, and the odds of being harmed in a car accident there are very similar to the odds of the same thing happening here.”
While it may not be significant, if both America and Israel have similar rates of harm via car accidents and Israel additionally has terrorism then Israel would be less safe. Now obviously the preceding sentence doesn’t take into account other possible harms which might be more prevalent in America. Also, it is possible that the existence of rocket attacks actually minimizes the amount of car-related accidents because people are afraid to drive when a rocket might land at any moment.
That’s a really rough situation you’re in, and I totally feel your frustration. Now I want you to think about what I have to say, please don’t just read it once and disregard it. I want you to think about WHY you want to go to seminary in Eretz Yisroel. Now once you’ve figured out your reason/s, think to yourself: am I able to sacrifice my experience, and all I may gain from it, I’m order to get this Mitzvah of ????? ?? ????
In the Zechus of this Mitzvah, may you be Zoche to become the best person you can possibly be, even without experiencing seminary in EY. I believe that on this Zechus you will also be Zoche to find your proper Zivug with ease. I don’t believe you will suffer by sacrificing (especially) something as big as this. Hope that whatever choice you make works out!
That’s nice but Kibud Av falls away if you feel your ruchniyus will be better if you go to seminary. (I actually heard this from an adam gadol about learning in a certain yeshiva even though parents dont want him to due to fear of war and the like. He gave me a mkor but i can’t remember it)
oyyoyyoy: A girl cannot forgo even a little bit of Kibud Av V’Eim if she feels her ruchniyus will be better if she goes to seminary in Israel. I’m not even sure a boy could do so to go to a better yeshiva, but a boy has a chiyuv in Torah whereas a girl does not, so a case might be able to be made for a boy.
Lior: Why do you assume the Mitzvah of Kibbud applies when they are trying to tell you what to do with your own life?
Of course Kibud Av wouldn’t “fall away” I’m this situation. Not even for a boy. I happen to be learning in an American Yeshiva now, but if Ibwasbin the same situation I (hope) would listen to them. And even if for some reason there was no “Chiyuv”, it would still be the right thing to do. At the end if the day, I really have nothing more to add to what I said originally. Again, much ?????!
We have a married daughter in Israel (with a son in law and a granddaughter), and a son learning in Yeshiva. Next week, another daughter goes off to seminary. If they are in danger chas veshalom, then they will not be safe even at the gates of Lud. And if there are no gezeiros, they are in the best place to be. They are being mechanech themselves in the proper way. Batel retzonecha mipnei retzono kedai sheyivatel retzon acheirim mipnei retzonecha.
Sam: I was only responding to the narrow abstract point about when Kibud IS applicable whether it can be put aside for Limud Torah purposes.
Lior: I’m pretty sure it’s B’feirush in the Shulchan Aruch that it is. No?
In an example where the son, in his own opinion, feels he will be able to accomplish more Limud Torah is Yeshiva X compared to what he’ll accomplish in Yeshiva Y that his father wants to send him to?
“Why do you assume the Mitzvah of Kibbud applies when they are trying to tell you what to do with your own life?”
Y.D. 240:25:
????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?”? ????? ?? ???
Presumably the implication from this is that in general you do have to listen when they tell you what to do with your own life.
Lior: Yes.
Sorry, no advice for you!
I personally think it’s much safer here than in the USA, and it’s actually really cool to see the rockets blow up in the sky..
😉
Many girls didn’t get into sem, you got in, you can afford it, don’t miss this opportunity!!!
oyyoyyoy and Sam2: Her parents are the ones with the money (a very large percentage of which they can still recoup at this stage if her seminary is anything like my seminary).
Sam2: In the case you mentioned, do you mean that the kid can force the parents to pay for his preferred yeshiva or that if the kid can get scholarships and pay independently then he can ignore his parents?
I’m actually thinking a little about that story in Mishpacha this week with the rebbi who encouraged his talmid to ignore his parents who wanted him to go home from yeshiva and go to college. (Though in the case of the story, even if the talmid should have stayed lefi Torah, it was not the rebbi’s place to convince him to defy his parents IMHO.)
PAA: I obviously agree with you. The point of my post is not to say that her parents are crazy for thinking what they think and feeling what they feel- it’s just what (to be honest here) helped me get used to the idea that I’m going to a war torn country. For me, thinking about it intellectually helped, and I merely presented those intellectual and logical arguments if she wanted to use them on her parents. Obviously they didn’t work.
“PAA: I obviously agree with you.”
I’m glad I’m so convincing that you would OBVIOUSLY agree with me. (I wish I could properly convey sarcasm in writing. I refuse on principle to use those smiley faces.)
Obviously, the point of your post wasn’t to say that her parents are crazy; it was to present a potential argument to be used to convince her parents. I wasn’t coming to disagree with you (except on the small point that maybe rockets plus cars is more dangerous than just cars, but I did provide a potential refutation to make up for it). I was just presenting what I think her parents are feeling and why your arguments, although logically sound, might not convince them. So I think we can agree that we agree and obviously I won the argument.
PAA: Obviously, obviously, obviously.
(Though I thought that realizing that we were sayin two different things meant that there was no argument to win… what I said in my last post was that I think we’re both right in different ways, unless we’re in a contest to help the OP.)
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Just to annoy you.
(Happens to be, I used to be SO against them, but then I had a lot of trouble with texting, emailing, etc with the kind of friends I get sarcastic with- I actually had some pretty serious misunderstandings popping up- so I capitulated. The problem is that, like Lay’s potato chips, you can’t use just one, and as you may have figured out from my other posts, emoticons are now my secondary form of punctuation to the point that I had to consciously stop myself from using one on my SAT essay. Then again, as a teenage girl, I guess I was just a catastrophe waiting to happen in that regard.)
“Though I thought that realizing that we were sayin two different things meant that there was no argument to win… what I said in my last post was that I think we’re both right in different ways, unless we’re in a contest to help the OP.”
You are right that there was no argument to win. That was part of my sarcasm which couldn’t be detected in writing. (Maybe this is a serious enough misunderstanding to force me to start using emoticons. [Who made up that word?]) But I wouldn’t say that we were both right in different ways inasmuch you were presenting how a person SHOULD approach the situation and I was presenting how some people WILL approach the situation.
“Just to annoy you”
It doesn’t annoy me when people use them; I personally want my writing to have a certain polished look which I think is lost when using them (as well as when using the various texting abbreviations). Please don’t take offense at that – you are entitled to disagree.
I don’t get the Lay’s potato chips reference (unless you are simply giving an example of something which is addictive in which case I will have to vociferously disagree), and speaking of things written by you that I don’t get, I also didn’t quite get the tail end of your post describing my position in the other thread, although the rest of it was well written (not that the last part wasn’t but I just didn’t quite understand it).
Here I thought this was about personal security from predators!
To the OP: I agree with Dee that you should ask your family Rov, with your parents present so that both sides can be heard.
PAA: The Shulchan Aruch is not discussing girls, and for good reason. Girls (as others pointed out) have no mitzva of limud, and it is questionable if a year in Sem in EY is appropriate for a girl (especially after recent events). Kibbud would be based on causing your parents worry that their daughter is in a (in their minds) Makom Sakana (similar to why smoking or taking drugs is being over Kibbud Av (as per Rav Moshe Iggros YD chelek 3)).
gavra_at_work:
I was quoting the S”A to make the exact opposite point of what you accuse me of. I was saying that the fact that the S”A lists a specific case (and the Rema adds one more specific case) where you don’t have to listen to your parents when they tell you what to do with your life implies that in general they do have a say in how you live your life. I was responding to Sam2 who had said “Why do you assume the Mitzvah of Kibbud applies when they are trying to tell you what to do with your own life?”.
For what it’s worth, there’s a seminary in Haifa, and things have been very quiet here.
PAA – Shalom Al Yisroel.
gavra:
Don’t worry; I didn’t take it personally. But I’ll take the shalom al yisrael anyway.
my personal philosophy is that since it is a mitzva to live in EY, every moment you spend there you are constantly accumulating mitzvos. these merits will protect you wherever you go. therefore, it is in fact the safest place to live.
and even if someone would c’v die–1)it was going to happen at that moment anyway, like the previously-referenced gates of lud situation and 2)it’s the best place to do it, no? (sorry i’m being so morbid :))
(that was a smiley with a double chin. paa, for the record, i just adore smileys. i use them all over the place, even in essays 😉
“that was a smiley with a double chin. paa, for the record, i just adore smileys. i use them all over the place, even in essays”
I like reading them in other people’s writing (not essays though). I just don’t like reading them in my writing.
i only make them small with a light pencil on essays. and i didn’t put any on my sat essay, i think. but definitely in texts and emails–they’re very handy when you want to point out that something is funny, or that you just made a joke, and you don’t trust the reader to come to that conclusion on his own.
that said, i agree they are not very polished looking, but at least they are cheerful looking. there aren’t enough smileys in the world today
🙂
I brought up kibudav because amaaretz used it as a reason to stay, of course if parents are paying for it there’s no practical choice.
amaaretz
I happen to be learning in an American Yeshiva now, but if the same situation I (hope) would listen to them. And even if for some reason there was no “Chiyuv”, it would still be the right thing to do.
the right thing to do would be to listen to the shulchan aruch
lior
I was only responding to the narrow abstract point about when Kibud IS applicable whether it can be put aside for Limud Torah purposes.
i’m not sure if you’re calling me narrow minded or not, but if you are- that’s nuts and we know what has the same gmatriah as nuts
Now for the chiluk between girls and boys, where boys have a chiyuv as opposed to girls. I do hear the difference but it could be it doesnt make a difference. Expecially if girls have kiyumis. And even if there isn’t kiyumis, I think the girl herself feels she will end up doing more mitzvos and have more yiras shamayim if she goes. I’m not sure that it’s so simple to say this isnt a mitzva. Agian, practically the only bearing of what im saying would be to cancel out the pro of staying for the sake of kibud av and its shmirah.
“I also didn’t quite get the tail end of your post describing my position in the other thread”
Looking back, I think I do get it. I think you were saying that 000646 did not agree with Lior that we are inherently right and have the truth. That explains why I got confused – you said that you were going to discuss my position and Lior’s position and not 000646’s position. You then went on to say that we really were agreeing with each other and in practice there would only be a difference in a specific situation. But your example of the situation where my position would run up against Lior’s roadblock was if I changed my position to incorporate 000646’s position. But that really means that my position wouldn’t actually ever run up against Lior’s roadblock. Hence I was confused. (Feel free to correct me if I misrepresented or misunderstood what you were saying.)
“that said, i agree they are not very polished looking, but at least they are cheerful looking. there aren’t enough smileys in the world today”
Perhaps. But when we get to the point where people think that a semicolon only exists to make a smiley, we might have a problem.
PAA: No no no. Semicolons are for WINKY faces. Colons are for smileys. It’s obvious, just like the hashtag key on my phone.
Maybe I need a crash course in emoticon use as I seem to be really out of my element here. What is the hashtag reference?
“The most basic emoticons are relatively consistent in form, but each of them can be transformed by being rotated (making them tiny ambigrams), with or a without hyphen (nose). There are also some possible variations to emoticons to get new definitions, like changing a character to express a new feeling, or slightly change the mood of the emoticon. For example 🙁 equals sad and :(( equals very sad or weeping. A blush can be expressed as :”> . Others include wink ;), a grin :D, smug :->, and tongue out 😛 for disgust or simply just to stick the tongue out for silliness, such as when blowing a raspberry. An often used combination is also <3 for a heart, and </3 for a broken heart. A representation of a cat face can be expressed like this: :3, along with a mustache emoticon
:-{ or :{D.
A broad grin is often shown with crinkled eyes to express further amusement; XD and the addition of further “D” letters can suggest laughter or extreme amusement e.g. XDDDD. There are hundreds of other variations including >:D for an evil grin or >:( for anger, which can be, again, used in reverse, for an unhappily angry face, in the shape of D:< . =K for vampire teeth, :s for grimface, and ;P can be used to denote a flirting or joking tone, or may be implying a second meaning in the sentence preceding it.[13]”
(Wikipedia)
(This was obviously all obvious.)
(Wikipedia)
PAA: Don’t worry, that was sarcasm (see this is why we need emoticons…). The reference to the “hashtag key” is to the pound key on the phone keypad.
I assume you mean that when you said “it’s obvious” it was sarcastic. I am not so out of touch that I don’t know what a hashtag is – my question was as to the reference of the obviousness of the hashtag key as it relates to the obviousness of a semilcolon being a winky face as opposed to a smiley face, but if it turns out that you were sarcastic then I guess I have no question.
No, sorry- I’m really bad at being clear.
I was sort of channeling my inner texting-obsessed teen (which was hard as she doesn’t really exist) and making it seem like I thought that the pound key was the “hashtag key.” Then, of course, making that seem “obvious” like the fact that you should know (duh) the difference between a colon and a semicolon in an emoticon.
(The Anatomy of a Bad Joke.)
Good thing you explained because it had gone totally over my head. In fact even now I’m not sure if I get it.
If only I had seen this earlier.
I’d be much more afraid of the people running the seminary.
“I’d be much more afraid of the people running the seminary.”
Especially in Bnos Popa and Darchei Ambit.
I just discovered that if I type an emoticon on my phone and press the key that makes it read the text, it says what the emoticon means. But it doesn’t seem to know all of them.
All the logic in the world is irrelevant when your parents are reacting from an emotional viewpoint.
Your mother’s fear is real to her, it cannot be logically explained away. You need to ONLY address her fear.
Ask her what you can do (in Israel) to allay her fears. Should you suggest that you will not take public transportation, only taxis. Or, not leave your seminary if any Peguah’s have happened. Or vow to avoid the center of town and only go to shopping malls that have excellent security. Stay in after dark, avoid large crowds.
Whatever limitations she puts on you, as time goes on and “nothing” happens, she will then feel more comfortable with giving you more freedom.
I had two daughters in Seminary during the Intifadas and I can tell you, that as a parent, it was very frightening. My girls understood my fears and were very careful to follow the rules that gave me comfort.
Also, if G-d forbid something happens in Israel you MUST contact your parents ASAP and tell them where you are and why you are safe. That worked for me
Much Hatzlacha !!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.