Separate Times For Bochurim & Sem Girls In Gateshead

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  • #1029654
    Josh31
    Participant

    I am convinced that those who live in and fit in the Gateshead community are either from the tribe of Shimon or Levi.

    #1029655
    just me
    Participant

    My daughter went to sem in Gatehead. She loved her sem, hated the community. It makes sense to me to have the different hour in stores because of the crowded stores. 2 tiny stores and lots of people is not tzniyus. My daughter complained that the boys didn’t get into trouble if they shopped at the wrong hours, but the girls could have been sent home from sem. That is life. Yeshiva boys always have more freedom than girls.

    #1029656
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Seriously if the community is such there there are too many people for 2 small stores and everyone cant fit in those 2 small stores.

    Instead of making rules like times for boys and times for girls, why not just open more stores

    #1029657
    Josh31
    Participant

    Just like each of the tribes early in our history had their unique strengths and vulnerabilities, so do our modern day communities. Hence, a Takanah made in one community will make no sense in another community.

    #1029658
    ED IT OR
    Participant

    why has no one found anything more on this? for instance I found out (a friend emailed me a picture) that the vaad hatzniyus put up notices all over town ranting about the accesoryworld shop apparently they were lowering. (raising) the standards of dress in town!

    I mean this sounds seriously like the situation with manny’s in meah sheorim, yidden upset that other yidden are making a decent parnosoh…..

    #1029659
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    My neighbor was recently in England and I asked her if she went to Gateshead, She told me as part of the trip she was required to visit a seminary.

    She had taken 2 planes to get to Gateshead after a long flight arrived there and was Starving. She walked into one of the stores to get and sandwich and was told she could not be served because “It was the Boys time”.

    So she BEGGED the owner to sell her a sandwich and he refused because it wasnt the girls time.

    She had to WAIT until the Girls time to get some food (She did not know anyone in Gateshead)

    While the wait was only a few hours, When you are tired after a long trip and starving, it might as well be forever.

    This is a case where a Chumra overtook a HALACHA

    #1029660
    Englishveg
    Member

    Dunno. I learnt in Goerdiland for a number of years (now i am learning in Israel), and i definatly see the need for all the takonas. We are basically talking about a small ghetto where the 2 furthest points in the kehilla are about 15 minutes apart. EVERY reasonable thinking guy realises the neeed for the Takonas. Furthermore, sorry to disapoint all you guys but Moreinu Horav Binyomin Hershkewitz shlita never was and never will be the rav of G/hd. He is and probably will always retain the position of Rosh Yeshiva of Dansky’s.

    Additionally it is impossible to take 2 plane journeys from anywhere in England and end up in Gateshead. The country simply isn’t large enough to take off and land twice (their is not planes from Manchester to Gateshead for that reason, 120 miles is to short for a plane journey). If she was coming from abroad why did she notget a meal on the plane or take food with her. It must be that she didn’t trust the kashrus of the planes food. It seems to me that SHE was imposing her CHUMRA over the halochas of tsniut.

    Additionall, one can always go to Tesco’s or some other other non jewish store to purchase kosher nosh.

    #1029662
    2scents
    Participant

    I dont really know the rules in Gateshead.

    However one can assume that the rule is not to sell to Girls while it is the Boys time.

    Maybe the owner or worker can lose his Position or income by breaking the rule.

    #1029663
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I have not been to Gateshead, but I have been to London (Golders Green) and Ive been to Paris and Italy and I can tell you I am confused about Kashruth , I am not even sure about Chalov Yisroel in Europe. I do know how far Gateshead is from London (About 400 miles)

    Since I am not sure about Kashruth (and Ill assume the girl did not either) I only buy from the jewish stores and I doubt she ever heard of Tesco or knew where it was (If you’ve never been somewhere, the store could be a block away and you wouldnt know it, and even if you did, What could you buy there) Kashruth in Europe is different. Until someone tells you what you can eat, you sort of have to wait. Its not about Chumas, this is actual Kashruth.

    I think she flew into Ireland or something and then flew into Newcastle (Gateshead), She did take a train to get to London.

    #1029664
    Leah222
    Member

    girls time is BEFORE boys time.. so story makes no sense!

    #1029665
    soliek
    Member

    um, this may be a stupid question, but what happens if a guy walks in during girl time and vice versa…?

    this whole idea seems retarded…i mean this doesnt even happen in beis shemesh

    #1029666
    Cutie
    Member

    zahavasdad:

    Gateshead is actually 280 miles from London!!!

    #1029667
    Horrified
    Participant

    to be precise

    274 M1

    267 A1/A1M

    #1029668
    ED IT OR
    Participant

    horrified, what on earth are you on about, what is the connection to boys times/girls times?

    something tells me you approve of such discrimination! maybe you want 274 miles in between boys and girls!

    LOL

    #1029669
    gr8 masmid
    Member

    As a current talmid of one of the yeshivos in Gateshead, I can state that there are between 700-800 bachurim in town, as well as around 500 sem girls, and I’m not sure how many families.

    First of all, this takanah has been around for longer than I have been in Gateshead, and I think it was initiated by the old Rav, Rav Rakow ztz”l. Therefore, we must bear in mind that he probably had a much greater understanding of both straightforward daas Torah and also a thorough understanding of the workings of the community.

    #1029670
    aproudbyg
    Participant

    just have a weird question but this forum brought it up so…Why is it that for 15-20 years(from like 6 years old) boys and girls are kept FAR apart from eachother i mean chas vshalom if they shop in the same place, but then all of a sudden they start going out on dates? i mean its like for years dont look dont talk to them then its, go see if you want to spend the rest of your life with them? Does this question make sense to anyone else?

    #1029671
    mytake
    Member

    aproudbyg

    Just because a girl/boy is dating doesn’t mean that the rules they grew up with no longer apply. It’s just that once they feel ready for marriage, they are allowed to date for that purpose. There is no contradiction.

    And btw, in most frum communities they don’t shop in different places or at different times.

    #1029672
    cheftze
    Member

    Because they have no mechanism of enforcement. Otherwise, in many instances, I’m sure they (rightly) would.

    #1029673
    bobbys cow
    Participant

    I think that any teenaged boy (can’t speak for the girls) who says he doesn’t understand the purpose for separating boys and girls is eihter lying to everyone else, lying to himself, or in need of psychological attention. A healthy boy should realize the dangers of talking to girls.

    #1029674
    yitzchokm
    Participant

    I think people don’t understand the concept of a ke’helah. In the olden days, the ruv of the ke’helah made the rules. What he said went, no two ways about it. The only times there was any problems was when there where people who weren’t frum. a

    Gateshead community seems to be such a ke’helah. Hence, if the ruv ok and wants this rule, then that’s that.

    The jewish Community in other places around the world, sadly lack rules because they don’t realty belong to ke’helahs.

    #1029675

    Yitzchokm

    a very nice point but how did you come up with the idea of making a -e’- sound? k-E’-hilah?! how do you pronounce that?

    #1029676
    Toi
    Participant

    all the boys are quite awareof the reasons for these takanos. and that should be enough of a reason for the girls to go along with them.

    #1029677
    gr8 masmid
    Member

    aproudbyg:

    one who understands the workings of normal human social interaction fully, (who I cannot claim to be), will appreciate that when boys and girls who are below the age of intellectual maturity mix, disastrous results can follow. It is for this reason, among many others for which we don’t have time, that the Torah and Chazal made so many stringent safeguards to restrict mixing of the genders until they come of age – indeed, the Mishnah in Pirkei Avos says quite clearly that 18 is the age to get married.

    as I am not a rav or mashgiach etc, I do not have a mandate to proffer my own opinions as to how far we must go to avoid unsolicited interactions, but it is absolutely imperative that we have full trust in our rabbanim (who, whether we like it or not, have a far greater understanding of what is necessary than ourselves) when they make takanos to ensure a continuity of proper kedushas Yisroel, which is the basis for the continuation of Yiddishkeit.

    despite all this, the Torah gives us the mitzvah of getting married, and if someone withholds themselves from this, then they have been Mevatel a mitzvah. The mishnah says that the turning point here is 18 years old, and we must accept that as Daas Torah.

    As for the problem of how are they going to suddenly be able to get on with and love each other – well, it’s worked for thousands of years so there’s no reason to presume it’ll stop working now.

    IY”H you should be zoche, if you haven’t already, to find your bashert and live a productive life together.

    #1029678
    yitzchokm
    Participant

    A sheep

    Lol

    It’s complicated!

    #1029679

    self-proclaomed masmid

    you are so smart you are so wise, but i must disagree with you. your great hasmada has paid off and your developed bekiyus in gantz shas has given you the tools to know a mishna that every miami am haaretz knows. however the application of this mishna is apparently not as simple as i thought it was because you made the mistake any elementary school kid would make if he was running around the classroom and not drugged up.

    The mishna says quite clearly that ben shmoneh esrei LCHUPAH.

    Quite clearly this means that it is a mitzvas asay to be married on your 18th birthday (or the Wednesday thereafter). To accomplish this it is integral that you give her kiddushin by your 17th birthday. It follows then that a person should start dating by one’s 16th birthday.

    Now what a waste it would be if a person didn’t know how to conduct himself gentlemanly with women? It is incumbent upon all children therefore to start his sociallizing at 15 or if he’s really interested in the ratzon hashem- 14 to make sure that he has found his bashert by 17.

    Now this all only applies to men as it takes women a longer time to find their bashert as is evidenced by the shidduch crisis so it would be an eitzah tovah to start dressing provocatively at 13. Even if there are downsides to this approach, it is still what we should do because thats what the mishna says and this way we can bring mashiach as it says that in the yimos hamashiach there will be bochurim in the bais hazonos.

    #1029680
    Avi K
    Participant

    If the problem is overcrowding the Capitalist solution would be to open more stores. As for the rules of a kehilla,Yitzchokim, they were made by the community council (shiva tuvei ha’ir) who were elected by the taxpayers as they dealt with expenditures(the Maharil has a teshuva on who has the right to vote but I could not find exactly where). If someone did not like a law (generally a tax law) he could appeal to the bet din or the gadol hador (the Rashba has several tax teshuvot). The rav’s job was to pasken shailot.In Hungary he was also the ex officio rosh yeshiva (which was a communal institution) although in Lithuania there was generally a division between the yeshiva and the kehilla.

    #1029681

    Avi K: The problem is overcrowding due to 1000+ yeshiva/seminary students. They outnumber the members of the kehilla. Students don’t create enough demand to make another store viable.

    Actually, until about 10 years ago, there was only one store. Now there are two.

    #1029682
    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Soliek, it did happen in Beis Shemesh but it was done quietly. Certain girls who loitered in the wrong places were quietly taken off the shidduch list. Word about it spread where it needed to and behavior improved. A model for all communities.

    #1029683
    Avi K
    Participant

    Chocandpatience, why are they wandering about? They should be in yeshiva/seminary. If they do not have what it takes they should be working.

    #1029684
    notasheep
    Member

    I live in gateshead and never went to sem here and never grew up here. It makes sense in such a town to have those rules, which by the way only apply to the bochurim/sem girls and also teenagers (who should be in school anyway during those hours). It does not apply to married people, so I have never had a problem running out of ingredients during the wrong hours.

    It seems to me that an awful lot of people who have not been to gateshead, or those who lack the age and maturity, are very quick to judge our community.

    Also, I disagree with the comment that the families who live here only do so to support the mosdos. We are a growing community, and many of the families that live here now do not have any connection to the yeshivos or sems except for financially. In the years that I have lived here, many other businesses are opening and growing.

    #1029685

    As notasheep says. Quite a few people here work in all sorts of areas, quite innovatively, and make it quite well. We have physicians, real estate people, small business owners, internet entrepreneurs, Lehmanns (the European Artscroll distributor), and much more. I myself work in an IT job in Newcastle (the bigger city right next to Gateshead across the river) with Israeli customers.

    #1029686

    Avi K: Not sure what you mean. Who’s wandering about? They are going to the store. That’s what this discussion is about – separate times at the store for yeshiva boys and seminary girls.

    #1029687

    JUST ME – when your daughter grows out of her soppiness she may be able to grow up and learn a thing or two! she should not want to go to the shops at the wrong time regardless of whether she will be told off or not. When i sent both my sons and daughters to learn in gateshead their pocket money was dependant on whether they kept to the times or not… Gateshead is a small town, with many many shadchonim and shadchanters!! And besides that the shadchan of all shadchonim is always watching!! I actually heard an amazing story a bochurs kappel blew away – the seforim shop would not allow him in to buy a new one as it was girls time, he went to complain to the rav, the rav gave the boy his own kappel!! KOL HAKAVOD to the shop for sticking to their principles and the Rav for enforcing it further! MI K’AMCHA GATESHEAD!!! Theres nothing like it and probably never will be!! Its very upsetting to see people put down a takana like this on a frum website!! who are we to interfere with a rule set down many many years ago? And you poor starving girl who seemingly landed outside the grocery with your suitcases – fruit and vegetables are always kosher, tesco sells that too… and anyways as far as i heard gateshead is a town of ultimate chessed you could always have knocked on any door with a mezuza and asked them to give you something, so please dont put down this special takana due to your ‘experience of lack of experience’ in travelling to new places…

    #1029689
    gr8 masmid
    Member

    Doped up –

    dressing provocatively, quote on quote, is one of the worst possible things for a bas yisrael to do – something that causes others do fall into aveiros of the worst order cannot be justified under any circumstances. I would go so far as to say yehareig ve’al ya’avor – get killed rather than follow your misguided advice.

    I sing with gusto every Friday night, “sheker hachein v’hevel hayofie”, so if what’s attracting you to your wife is her physical rather than spiritual form, then your chances of success in this world and the next are worryingly slim – probably as slim as that girl you’ve got your eyes on.

    someone who comes up with such dei’os has lost the mandate to offer opinions. I can only try and be dan lechaf zechus (which is quite hard) and say that you were exaggerating your opinions to ridiculous levels.

    Best of luck.

    #1029690
    gr8 masmid
    Member

    letsgetthingsstraight –

    100% – it’s funny how all those who disagree with the takanah are external spectators, and all those who were or are Gatesheaders fully understand and appreciate the need for it – just my musings, you probably agree, no?

    #1029691
    Bar Bay Rav
    Participant

    How come there are people who don’t understand the problem of inter-gender mingling? Were they never Bochurim or do they just have to knock everything holy?

    #1029692
    a rov and half
    Participant

    I am pleased to see that people are slowly starting to get the message but listen up people there is a real rachmonus story up here about the girl who had to take a longer route to school .Firstly the story logistically doesnt make any sense if you know anything about gatesheads streets but more then that if she is such a nebbach that when looking for an excuse to go off she has to blame the rabbis with whom she never had any connection than nothing is going to be good enough and i am glad that you feel comforted with the trash excuse you use in hindsight for your copout from judaism which you are clearly to delicate to cope with.if anyone wants to come and see what things look like here during shopping hours you would well understand I SHOULD NOTE THAT THIS GREAT FEMALE PROTECTION ACT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THE ATTRACTED MY WIFE TO BECOME FRUM .I GUESS IF YOU ARE FFB YOU ARE TOO CLOSE MINDED AND IMMATURE TO APPRECIATE HOW GOOD THINGS ARE FOR YOU

    #1029693
    Sam2
    Participant

    Bar Bay Rav: Some people think that when you extend “holiness” too far (and no one here is actually qualified to judge what constitutes “too far”) then you no longer have holiness.

    #1029694
    Sam2
    Participant

    Gr8 Masmid: While I in no way endorse that post, which I think (hope) was facetious, we have a list of Aveiros that are Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. Lifnei Iver isn’t one of them.

    #1029695
    stuck
    Member

    arayos is yeherog val yaavor.

    #1029696
    Bar Bay Rav
    Participant

    Sam2 i guess you are one of those lucky people who skipped the bochur stage and don’t understand the problem

    #1029697
    Bar Bay Rav
    Participant

    Also I think the Rabbonim of Gateshead are qualified to judge what holiness is and if you don’t agree with their definition you don’t have to live there but for their city they definitely are the Marah D’asra

    #1029698
    Sam2
    Participant

    Stuck: And 1+1=2. Looking provocative isn’t an Issur of Giluy Arayos and isn’t Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.

    Bar Bay Rav: I understand that mixing boys and girls can lead to problems. The question is whether under these circumstances the potential problems are a legitimate or negligible risk. I can’t even begin to claim that I know enough to have an opinion on that.

    #1029699
    stuck
    Member

    Sam: Looking provocative naturally leads to arayos and falls into the arayos category.

    #1029700
    Sam2
    Participant

    Stuck: That Sevara makes sense and is nice to say, but it’s not true. We hold Abizraihu of Giluy Arayos is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. Doing something inappropriate isn’t Abizraihu. I don’t think even Hirhurei Aveirah are Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.

    #1029701
    Bar Bay Rav
    Participant

    Sam2: Even if it only leads to Hirhurei Aveira (which it does) it is problem enough. (And if you have a way for it not to lead to Hirhurei Aveira please feel free to share. And don’t just say to work on Yiras Shomayim.)

    #1029702
    stuck
    Member

    Sam: RYBS viewed attending services in mixed pews as Yehareg Val Yaavor. Dressing provocatively is surely much worse.

    #1029703
    notasheep
    Member

    I despair. If you don’t get it you probably never will. Especially when you see the way many frum girls dress these days. And no, I am not middle-aged, old fashioned or frumpy, but I can tell you now that many of the sem girls dress in tight clothes and skirts that are very borderline. If you know that, then you can understand the reason for separate times. Besides which, they should not be wandering about since the girls’ time is when the boys are still in seder and the boys’ time is when the girls should anyway be in sem

    #1029704
    Sam2
    Participant

    Stuck: That is because he has a Chiddush about Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor and Mesorah (I don’t remember exactly what he holds, but it’s not because it’s an Arayos issue.) And you can’t draw a Kal V’chomer like that. Chillul Shabbos is worse than mixed pews (if everyone’s dressed properly, etc.) and we don’t say that that is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.

    #1029705
    notasheep
    Member

    Sam2: there are 3 cardinal sins – arayos, avoda zara and shefichas damim. These three is is FORBIDDEN to do even on pain of death. Chillul shabbos is permissible for pikuach nefesh (eg, someone holds a pistol to your head and says that they will definitely shoot if you don’t listen). For something that leads to arayos, it is not ‘extending holiness too far’ to separate the girls and bochurim in such a small community

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