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The Shulchan Aruch says, l’halacha, to stay “far far away from girls”. It also says no amount of precautions against arayos is too many.
Stuck: The Shulchan Aruch does not say that “no amount of precautions is too many”. I’m not claiming there’s anything wrong with this Takanah in Gateshead. I don’t know the city at all so I can’t say anything, positive or negative, about it. I’m just saying why some people are skeptical whenever they hear about the new “Chumra” or “Geder” put up, ostensibly to keep us away from Arayos. Making sure people aren’t Over on Arayos is a necessity. Other things that some people do to claim to avoid being Over on Arayos is too far and leads to many things, sometimes them being Over the very Issurim they are trying so hard to prevent.
Sam: What does the SA mean, l’halacha, when he writes (quote) “Stay far far away from girls”?
If this Takanah is from the Rabbonim of the city who know the city why the skeptism. (And where do you come from with this claim that Gedorim for Aroyos cause people to be Over Arayos?)
Stuck: Exactly what it sounds like. Follow all the Halachos mentioned in the Siman and be very careful because people have a very strong Yetzer Harah for women.
in the old days women would not go on the streets at all which is why the halacha says im pagah ishah bashuk lo yelech acharehah because it was surprising that a person should be pogeah ishah bashuk as only the men went to the shuk. this halacha probably does not apply today becuase aderabah most of the people in the shuk are women. the situtation in gateshead is different if you are talking about sem girls and yeshiva bochurim because eino domeh mi sheyesh lo pas besalo lemi she’ein lo pas besalo. even if this is a valid takanah it is not a raayah to other towns where this is not the situation. on the other hand everyone has the right to defend themselves against whatever they deem to be a threat to thier ruchniyos.
“on the other hand everyone has the right to defend themselves against whatever they deem to be a threat to thier ruchniyos.”
Are you advocating jihad? 😉
Anyway, as I mentioned before, I think these rules are definitely a good thing. I don’t see why it should cause any problems. Maybe at some point another store will open, on different hours for bochurim and girls, which would make any criticism pretty much irrelevant. But even without that, the rules are definitely justified. Stenhouse can be busy enough, but Dansky’s can be a disaster, to the point that I as a married man voluntarily avoid it during busy hours when many girls are there, because avoiding any accidental contact is nearly impossible during some hours. But usually my wife does most of our shopping there, anyway (my task is big/heavy Tesco shopping).
I saw an interesting gemara yesterday (bava basra 91b)
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Does Dansky’s sell Iron Bru? Stenhouse didn’t have any
Practically speaking, this takanah isn’t kept as much as it should be – I have many times gone in to Stenhouse/Dansky’s during the Yeshiva’s bein hasedorim (boys’ times) and found the place teeming with American girls, perfume and all. And yes, most of these girls are American (they chatter so loudly it’s impossible to not overhear their accents).
And when the Mashgiach of Gateshead Yeshivah, HRH”G Rav Mordechai Yosef Karnowsky SHLIT”A walks in when there are girls there in boys’ time, he ensures that they leave promptly. This is quite a clear demonstration that Da’as Torah is that this takanah is ongoing and anyone daring to breach it is being poretz geder.
For further reference, see Michtav Me’eliyohu (Rav Dessler ZT”L) vol. 1 page 75 where he quite clearly says that a peson who goes contrary to Da’as Torah is essentially eating away at the foundations upon which Yiddishkeit is built – however blindingly obviously wrong, senseless and counterproductive the opinion of Da’as Torah seems to him.
I heard a story firsthand from a girl who five minutes before the end of Boys hour – even though there were no boys in the shop and it was unlikely that any boys would come – and the shopkeeper would not allow them in.
I think it is an extremely good takonoh and kol hakavod to whoever set it up.
(BTW – Does anybody know whether the locals are bound to the opening times or is it only bochurim?)
gr8 masmid, Daas Torah doesn’t allow you on the internet to post at YWN.
yekke2 – all unmarried high-school and sem girls, and all bochurim and I think also high-school boys, whether local or foreign, are bound by this takanah.
And never mind the story you heard firsthand – no offense intended – but I myself went into Stenhouse about five weeks ago, towards the end of winter zman, and there were around ten girls – yes, all American – in there, chatting and giggling noisily, and only after complaining to the woman at the desk did she feebly request that they vacate the premises at the earliest opportunity. Ten minutes later, they were all still in the shop, and at least three others had entered during this time.(!)
There is, of course, as well as simply trangressing the Rov’s takanah, the immense problem of causing bochurim to have improper hirhurim, which is the intended purpose of most of the latest gentile-designed fashion outfits that many American girls wear. The native Gateshead girls and those of the wider English community are generally more tzenius in their mode of dress. Of course these are generalisations and will not necessarily apply to all girls in any specific category, but they are the general trends that I have noticed of late.
I cannot disagree with that. In general I see the American frum world seems to have a very major tznius problem. This is much less apparent in the British and Israeli frum worlds. In America, it seems to be a very serious problem.
If not for American Jews, the Jews in England and Israel would have needed to be institutionalized years ago.
Therefore they are allowed to dress immodest?
No, but you shouldn’t criticize them that much or they might leave. Tread carefully is all I’m saying.
ETA: I also wonder how much they are actually “untznius” and how much is just Gateshead being Gateshead.
If they are doing something wrong, they should be called out for it, threatening that they will leave should not be a reason to just ignore it.
An article in the Daily Telegraph stated that a woman was denied entry into England at some time prior to 2007 for giving her reason for visiting as wanting to go to Gateshead. “British visa officials ruled this as “not credible”.
(Wikipedia)
Veltz meshugener: I’m not quite sure what you mean by “Gateshead being Gateshead” – it’s written quite clearly that ‘tefach be’isha ervah’, so any girl revealing a part of her body that should be covered is being oiver the same issur as she would be if going with trousers, or a sleeveless top etc.
And if you think that’s just for the ‘frummers in Gateshead’, those ‘radical, oppressive extremist freaks’, and that ‘times have changed’, then that’s well on the path to Reform, R”L.
The Halachah is unequivocal on this point – any girl immodestly dressed ie. not dressed in accordance with the strict halachah, is being oiver on an infringement into gilui ervah, literally.
I think what he means is that some would call Gateshead closed and old-fashioned – which I can say as someone who grew up in Manchester and now lives in Gateshead is simply not true. The fact is that we are a small community that happens to house a thousand bochurim and sem girls and when the girls come into the shops they do tend to congregate and talk very loudly, which makes it hard enough even for residents to do shopping
To all you people who know nothing about Gateshead and comparing it to Geulah or Boro Park, speaks volumes about your ignorance. Gateshead personifies what a true Torah community should look like. Rav Shach ZTL had once said that if he was forced to move to chutz learetz, he would live in Gateshead. The achdus and ehrlichkeit of the community should be an example to the entire world. The town hosts thousands of sem girls and Yeshiva bochurim combined. Of coarse ther should be separate hours for 2 small stores each the size of about 1500 square feet. Am haratzim, go back to your hole and stop critiquing whats just and right
Yes i completely agree with you git meshige.
Before going to gateshead seminary i thought the place was crazy! why should we have times for the shops they dont have that anywhere else in the world?! but when you go to gateshead and you see two small little grocery shops basically next door each other, where the WHOLE of gateshead does their shopping, including the thousands of yeshiva bochurim and hundreds of sem girls – there is no choice except to make different times.
And a few times when i went to the shops and there were a bunch of boys who hadnt kept to the times it was quite uncomfortable as you can just about get down the aisles without brushing past these boys…
Bored: If your post had been the first on this thread, I don’t think there would have been much discussion at all. I think everyone would find that understandable.
I think that in a town where there is just so many people in such a tiny place, it needs to be separate.
If Gateshead had many more stores and a bigger area, it might not be that way
Have the times in gateshead changed with dansky’s new old shopfront?
No the rules are the same.
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