Comparing Sephardic and Ashkenazic Chumras and Kulot

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  • #1265934

    Sadigurarebbe
    Participant

    Generally it seems Ashkenazim are more machmir, ROY even said so himself (paraphrasing).

    What are instances where Sephardim are more Machmir in halacha?

    Two that I know of are chalak and regarding bishul yisroel requiring placing it on the fire not just lighting it. Any more, what am I missing?

    #1265943

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Women aren’t allowed to say brachos on any Mitzvos they are not chayiv in.
    According to Rav Ovadiah, zatsal, they aren’t allowed to say certain brachos in davening, and he speaks out very strongly against those that do and writes that we have to be mechanech all the Sefardi girls not to do so (but he adds that it’s okay for Ashkenazi girls to do so).

    #1265970

    Joseph
    Participant

    Marrying more than one wife.

    #1265983

    Joseph
    Participant

    You guys realize, don’t you, that many Jews are neither Sephardim nor Ashkenazim. They may be Teimani, Italco, Eida Mizrach, etc.

    #1265976

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph – I’m impressed that you realize that that’s an example of Sephardim being more machmir.

    #1265977

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Many or most Sephardi Poskim say that women aren’t allowed to wear sheitels.

    #1265998

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    בישול אחר בישול בדבר לח שנצטנן

    #1266008

    Joseph
    Participant

    What’s impressive about that?

    #1266025

    Joseph
    Participant

    Many Ashkenazi poskim say the same.

    #1266062

    smerel
    Participant

    Saying shlicos all of Elul

    #1266072

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Now THAT is a big one!

    #1266074

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    on the other hand, I think it’s really a minhag, so I don’t know if it counts for the current discussion.

    #1266081

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Most Ashkenazim Gedolim say that it’s muttar to wear sheitels. Someone wrote to Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlita about it (she wanted to know if she should stop wearing her sheitel as a zchus for Am Yisrael), and he wrote back that it’s not a problem for Ashkenazi women to wear sheitels since the Mishna Berurah says it’s fine.

    He also added that if she wants to do something as a zchus for Am Yisrael, she should daven maariv every day.

    #1266173

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Why does everything have to be X vs. Y. Can’t we just appreciate the fact that we are all doing the bidding of HKBH, however we got there.

    No, I suppose not. We have to label it as X is more this trait and Y is less of that one… 🙁

    The Wolf

    #1266180

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why does everything have to be X vs. Y. Can’t we just appreciate the fact that we are all doing the bidding of HKBH, however we got there.

    Who says it has to be? It’s just an interesting discussion, in which nobody implied anything to the contrary of what you wrote, that both are doing the bidding of HKB”H.

    #1266187

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I think it’s human nature to try to analyze everything.

    #1266218

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    I’m not even sure that many of the examples given are being more machmir for example- not saying a bracha on a mitzva aseh shehazman grama. Maybe it is the ashkenazi who is machmir because she is saying the bracha?
    Maybe a sheitle is more a chumra than a hat/tichel? Maybe a hat on top of a sheitle is most machmir? I think most of these examples are just differences in halacha, except for the ones in the original OP.

    #1266217

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Don’t ashkenazim hold by that too?

    #1266223

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s only אסור according to the רמ”א if it’s נצטנן לגמרי.

    #1266225

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Maybe a sheitle is more a chumra than a hat/tichel

    Ashkenazim hold she can wear either.

    #1266229

    MDG
    Participant

    I had a Sephardic guest last year who said that they don’t “say” slichos, they sing silichot.

    #1266237

    Joseph
    Participant

    Most early Ashkenazic achronim rule against sheitals.

    #1266238

    Joseph
    Participant

    A sheital is clearly a kula.

    #1266236

    MDG
    Participant

    Eruvin. Real Sephardim don’t use most eruvs, based on the Rif and Rambam (and many others) and paskened by the Shulchan Aruch. The issue is what is a Reshut harabim d’oryta.

    #1266240

    MDG
    Participant

    Yashan. Half the year your food might be not kosher. The Mechaber does not hold of the sfek sfaika of the Rosh and the Tur, while the Rema does.

    #1266250

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    OK, fine. I guess it’s a bad thing to simply accept the differences between frum Jews doing the will of HKBH. Forget I mentioned it.

    The Wolf

    #1266251

    Joseph
    Participant

    Anybody know when Ashkenazim pasken according to the Mechaber and Sephardim pasken according to the Rema?

    #1266257

    Joseph
    Participant

    Forgotten.

    #1266260

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I guess it’s a bad thing to simply accept the differences between frum Jews doing the will of HKBH.

    As opposed to rejecting it, or as opposed to discussing it?

    We can accept yet still discuss.

    #1266285

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avoiding fish + milk is more common among sefardim

    #1266267

    mik5
    Participant

    joseph – Does it have to do with Chanukah?

    Sephardic ladies are required to recite 100 benedictions every day, in the opinion of Chacham Ovadia.
    Ashkenazic ladies don’t have to.

    Selichos is a big one!

    Sephardim are into kabbalah more than (non-Hasidic) Ashkenazim. Ex: Sephardim put on RT’s tefillin. In terms of nusach, there are differences.

    Sephardim have to wait an extra day to cut their hair during sefira.

    Sephardim are required from the letter of the law to wait 6 hours after meat. Whereas, for Ashkenazim, it is only a minhag (and some Ashkenazim have a minhag to wait 1 hour, etc.)

    #1266268

    mik5
    Participant

    Sephardim are required to keep yoshon (and generally have more stringent traditions in kashrus). While by Ashkenazim, some people are meikel to eat chodosh (although, having learned the sugya, I know that the heterim to eat chodosh are weak).

    #1266284

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    No, of course it’s not a bad thing to try to accept differences. Human nature does not mean ideal behavior. Accepting differences is something we should all strive for. It’s just not something we’re born doing.

    #1266320

    mik5
    Participant

    Avoiding fish and milk is also a Chabad custom.

    #1266323

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Does it have to do with Chanukah?”

    Hot!

    #1266324

    Joseph
    Participant

    Much more than Chabad.

    #1266332

    mik5
    Participant

    Ashkenazim have each guy in the family light his own menorah; by Sephardim only the baal habayis lights. Ashkenazim are really following the Sephardic opinion. Am I right, Joseph?

    #1266336

    mik5
    Participant

    The wife of the Chazon Ish wore a wig.

    For Sephardim – it is controversial if they can wear a wig. The opinion of Chacham Ovadia is well-known, but not everyone holds like him.

    #1266347

    roshvrishon
    Participant

    I find one thing ashkenazim are more into than sefardim is the churban. A have nine days S have only the week of tisha bav. By a shiva call, A say עם שאר אבלי ציון וירושלים S just say תתנחמו מן השמים. A say אור חדש על ציון תיאר S skip that. A say צור ישראל קומה בעזרת ישראל and S skip that too. I believe the reason is because S come from בבל that did not experience חורבן בית שני while A come from those that went back with Ezra to ארץ ישראל. I have proof that I am right about the historical origins of the A and the S

    #1266354

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I don’t know what the early Achronim say . L’maaseh, what matters is what the Gedolim/Poskim of today say.

    #1266355

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ” Maybe it is the ashkenazi who is machmir because she is saying the bracha?”

    To quote DY: “Ashkenazi hold she can do either.”

    An Ashkenazi woman can choose whether or not to do the Mitzvah as well as whether or not she makes a bracha on it. A Sephardi woman might be able to choose whether or not to do the Mitzvah (although I’m not even sure about that), but she is NOT ALLOWED to make the bracha.

    #1266359

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    You are correct though that there are cases in which it would be hard to tell which is the chumra and which is the kula. There is a funny Gadol story about that, but I forget how it goes. Maybe someone else here knows it and can tell it. There may even be more than one.

    Usually, if someone is NOT ALLOWED to do something vs. being allowed to do it, or if someone HAS to do it vs. being allowed to do it, you would call it a chumra.

    The confusion sets in when one group HAS TO and the other group is NOT ALLOWED to. Then there may be differences of opinon regarding which is the chumra and which is the chumra. Likewise, if one group has to do one thing, and the other group has to do the other.

    #1266360

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Polygamy, for example, can be looked at either as a kula or a chumra, depending whose perspective you are looking at it from – the husband’s or the wive’s.

    #1266361

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I don’t think it’s just Chacham Ovadia, zatsal, but I don’t want to list other names in case I’m wrong. But I do think that most of the major Sephardi Poskim hold it’s assur to wear a wig. (although there may be those who do permit it).

    #1266371

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Wolf – This is one comparison that doesn’t bother me in the least. Comparing Ashkenazi halacha and Sephardi halacha is being accepting. Everyone accepts the fact that Ashkenazim are supposed to do certain things and Sephardim are supposed to do others.

    Saying that Ashkenazim or Sephardim are more machmir or more meikel is not a judgment on the people at all – it is simply a fact that the halachos for one may be more stringent than the other. We accept the fact that different Jews are supposed to do things differently, and no one thinks one way is better than the other.

    And by the way, being more machmir is not always a good thing. Neither is being more meikel.

    #1266391

    Joseph
    Participant

    There’s no proof or even reason to claim that Ashkenazim are from Eretz Yisroel while Sephardim are from Bavel.

    #1266377

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    May women say Amen to other’s brachos that they aren’t chayiv in?

    #1266397

    smerel
    Participant

    <i>I had a Sephardic guest last year who said that they don’t “say” slichos, they sing silichot.</i>

    The Askenazi version of that is “men geit nit zogen selichos men gait zay betten” (loosely “we don’t say shelicos we beg to get them”)

    #1266429

    147
    Participant

    smerel:- Just to get to the bottom line of what you are saying:- Sephardim have it easy during the 9 days {especially in 2021 & 2025 when Tisha b’Ov is for sure Sunday} but pay back exceedingly dearly just a moth later with Selichos during all o0f Ellul.

    #1266454

    Joseph
    Participant

    You’re saying the psak could change every generation with new rulings overturning the old ones?

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