Setting us up to fail financially

Good points. However why make a blanket statement.

Most people I know live very modest lives with no expensive vacations.

Just to build on your question ANONANO, WHY do we expect boys to learn in Kollel until they are in their 30’s? Why do we expect boys to learn in Kollel at all?? What ever happened to the concept of supporting yourself and your family. Kollel shouldn’t be mainstream!! It should be for a few, exceptional people who are the next Gedolei Hador, as it’s been for the past 2000 years.

(I’m going to stop before I lose it.)

No answer. Completely agree>

So true – sad but true. Question is – will this ever change?

Try being unemployed when everyone else seems to have it made.

BSD: What can we do about this? We can start by reading the biographies of our leaders from 2 or 3 generations ago and how they were willing to live without virtually anything just to be given the chance to rehabilitate the beloved garden of G-d. Stories like Moshe Dayan that when he would need a new pair of trousers would take hsi fathers old pants and cut them down to size and when buying new furniture meant taking a shipping container and renailing the wood so it would make a table or chair. People like Dovid BenGurion who when he moved to the beloved garden was told that he should leave before he would die of malaria and while he still had money only to write in his diary why are these people speaking to me in yiddisih. He also broke up with his girlfriend Rachel because she was not working hard enough. People like Golda Meir that left a comfortable teaching job in america to be a communist in a kibbutz draining swamps and working for Solol without knowing if her checks would bounce. That is the way to succeed. Lower ones standards in the exile so that one can have a share of the Beloved garden of G0d

The “Frum” economic situation is somewhat similar to the problems with the United States Social Security Program. When FDR enacted social security there was an almost equal ratio of workers contributing to the system as there were retirees receiving benefits. Over time, due to population increases, economic shifts etc that ratio has changed to where there are almost 8 retirees receiving benefits for every one worker contributing to the system. With not nearly enough money coming in to the system, it will go Bankrupt without major reform.

Baruch Hashem our families are very large (much larger than the first post-war generation?) and our first priority is to educate our children in Yeshivos which is probably our largest expense). The answer is that unless we have more people contributing financially by to the system IT WILL FAIL (any yes, all the naysayers will say that everyone has been saying that for years, but it will).

Plug in whatever numbers you want, but if there is a considerably higher percentage of non-economic contributors to the system it is doomed.

Compared to 70 years ago (that 1941) or even 1841, our financial situation is wonderful. No one starves. No progroms. We get upset over leaving early on Erev Shabbos at jobs that 70 years ago were closed to even frei Jews (unless they changed their names and/or were baptized). Virtually everyone has at least their own apartment (“boarding” has disappeared, as have multiple families sharing a household). We complain about the high cost of running a car (how many frum Yidden had cars 70 years ago, even in America). Even in countries where the heter to drink Stam Halav exists (and 150 years, that clearly did NOT include America), many people go for Halav Yisrael, and they buy it in stores (no more cows in the backyard). We have so many products that few people even consider deciding what’s kosher by looking at ingredients rather than hecksherim. We even have well patronized kosher restaurants. We even argue about frum Jews in politics (150 years ago no openly frum Jew would dare run for office – we didn’t even get voting rights in all states until around 1830).

We whine about medical care – but how many families do you know whose children died in childhood or were orphaned when the mother died in childbirth. Have you noticed that most people saying kaddish for a parent usually have the niftar’s grandchildren come to the minyan? Infant mortality is so low that families who don’t buy stuff for the unborn baby are considered quaint. When a woman goes into labor neighbors start planning to send over meals for her – 150 years ago the odds were pretty high it would be for shiva calls.

After centuries of wanting time to learn, and worry about death and famine (as in starving to death, not just having to buy house brands and skip restaurants), almost all Jews find time to learn. We are enjoying a tremendous boom in publishing. We have more yeshivos than ever before.

?? ?? ???????, so stop worrying and enjoy.

Very good points, akuperma.

We take Private education as a need

Because it is.

Kollel shouldn’t be mainstream!! It should be for a few, exceptional people who are the next Gedolei Hador, as it’s been for the past 2000 years.

You’re in disagreement with many of those very same Gedolei Hador.

The same way 99% of the readers of this site probably agree that a yeshiva education is not a luxury but a necessity, many of our gedolim have, with their superior wisdom, determined that we need more than a just a few yechidim devoting some years to full time learning, in order for klal Yisroel to function properly (spiritually).

Thank you akuperma for helping us appreciate the brochas Hashem has showered us with today!! IMHO the way to keep them coming is as I said above doing ratzono shel Makom, (and maybe buying cubic zirconia instead of diamond engagement rings for our dear Kallahs?)

since today’s economy is different from what there was in the olden days.

Everyone who is starting to build a family, should start putting away money for when they need it. we call it a savings account.

DaasYochid

Yes, they determined that it was necessary to have more people learning to maintain sprituality.

Now, I’ve been known to be a little cynical, but I know FIRSTHAND that the a large amount (and I think I’m being nice) of people learning in Kollel that, while they may be nice people and maybe even very sincere, they are wasting a LOT of time. Their are so reliant on other people, and for what? There is no shame on making an honest living and being Kovei’ah Itim. That is why the Daf Yomi system and countless other programs were invented. It is an unnatural thing to be able to study for 10 hours a day. Very few people from ANY walk of life or culture have the ability to do it. I believe that most of these “time-wasters” feel they have no chice. The Yeshivos promote Kollel (yes, almost ALL “mainstream” Yeshivos do), the girls want to marry ‘Learning Guys”. We all know people who are thosands and thousands of dollars in debt by the time they are 30-35 yrs old, with little to no hope of getting out of it!

So yes, Kollel should not be mainstream. Promote people learning to support themselves alongside learning. As so many people have already said here, the system will collapse if so many keep relying on the kndness of others to support them. Forget keeping up a luxurious lifstyle, most Kollel families can not keep up ANY lif-style.

akuperma: true most people did not have cars but they didnt live in suburbs where you MUST have a car, u cant live in Lakewood w/o at least one car in the household. I blame Jewish politicians and so called “Jewish” orgs like the federation for the financial crisis. Jewish politicians do NOTHING to alleviate the burden of tuition and the federation take MILLIONS (check UJA’s numbers 300 million) and give it to Africa, Ethiopians in Israel and some useless “workshops”. other orgs like chai lifeline and oorah take money from yeshivas and do there own thing, there are way TOO many frum orgs, how many times are you invited to various auctions and the like? This is because these are businesses go to charitynavigator.org Nowadays EVERYONE is encouraged to go to kollel and if you dont you are a less than, this is the fact, if not were welfare and Section 8 this would not be the case,this is why Jews are Democrats frum get more aid than the non-frum. NOTHING WILL CHANGE, WHO WILL MAKE THE CHANGES.

I’ve been wasting time unemployed on my computer…would rather have spent it in kollel. My halacha txt from yesterday said it’s a mitzvah to go to the beis midrash even if one can’t learn.