sfeika d'yoma

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  • #616494
    Student of Torah
    Participant

    will there be sfieka d’yoma when moshiach comes?

    #1106226

    That depends on whether modern communications systems

    are abandoned, and whether they are replaced.

    #1106227
    Joseph
    Participant

    Why would modern communications systems be abandoned?

    #1106228
    147
    Participant

    The only Sefeiko d’Yoma that shall continue is:- 1) Someone dying during Adar:- Shal Yahrzeit be in Adar 1 or in Adar 2? 2) Someone dying on 30th of month, and when goes Al Pi Re’Iyo:- Shall Johrzeit be on 29th or 1st when no 30th? 1) What to do with Yahrzeit’s on the 1st, when don’t if that day is going to end up being 1st or 30th? 4) Anyone between 90 degrees East of Yerusholayim and 180 degrees from Yerusholayim, not knowing whether in Halachic Far East or in Halachic Far West?

    #1106229
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    And, apparently there will be a safek if the Yom is called Yahrtzeit or Johrtzeit.

    #1106230
    555
    Participant

    There is no safek about that. That depends on if you are European and call it Johrtzeit or American and call it Yartzeit. The safek is, if there will be any difference between Europeans and Americans at that time and how they get to E”Y.

    What Yartzeit or Johrtzeit will be held after T’Chiyas Hamaisim? The of their own past death? The day of the Tchiya? Both?

    #1106231
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Tzaddikim will hold only one day. Tzaddikim are niftar on the day they’re born.

    #1106232
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant
    #1106233
    lesschumras
    Participant

    There is no sfeika deyona, only a minhag. We’ve had a calendar for 1500 years

    #1106234
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    That is the root of the question. Will our minhag continue?

    #1106235
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Why should it continue? I’ve never understood why a halacha created for chutz laaretz morphed into a minhag that had to be followed when visiting Israel, where there wasn’t and isn’t, a sfaika deyoma

    #1106236
    Sam2
    Participant

    2 day Yom Tov is not a Minhag. It is a Din D’Rabannan. This is a very important difference.

    #1106237
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    I don’t claim I know either. I’m not a Talmudician, not a Rabbi, never claimed to know.

    I think it’s called Minhag avosainu byadeinu. And that may have been what kept us a a nation, unwavering, throughout all the generations. We followed our sages regardless if we (and them) knew the right day. ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ????. So it follows naturally that we follow our mesorah too, even in Eretz Yisroel. We’re still listening to our Sages.

    #1106238
    Mammele
    Participant

    Apparently nobody got Nisht’s joke as 147 had both variations of “Yahrtzeit” in one post.

    edited

    #1106239
    555
    Participant

    LF: That’s a contradiction because the sages said it was for chutz laaretz and now its being kept in E”Y. Back in the day when they were around nobody from chutz kept 2 days if they were Oleh Regel. Besides there is the concept of Minhag Hamokom. Like Tzinding lecht. If your at somebody’s house who makes early shabbos in the summer, you tzind the same time they do even if you usualy are not m’kabel shabbos early.

    #1106240

    Why should it continue? I’ve never understood why a halacha created for chutz laaretz morphed into a minhag that had to be followed when visiting Israel, where there wasn’t and isn’t, a sfaika deyoma

    We don’t change dinim (or even minhagim) just because you don’t understand them.

    #1106241

    We have 2-day Yomim Tovim so that we will be used to keeping

    2 days when Moshiach comes and kiddush hachodesh is

    once again performed by Beis Din. However, we may be able to communicate Beis Din’s decisions more quickly now.

    #1106242
    Joseph
    Participant

    147 is half Yekke and half Oberlander.

    #1106243

    We don’t change dinim (or even minhagim) just because you don’t understand them.

    Ouch –

    regardless of his intent (which I dont know), it was a fair question that many may have, and i have no doubt there is a respectable answer that would encourage understanding of the system.

    #1106244

    mammele – perhaps many got it but don’t consider jokes aimed at people to be worth noting. perhaps.

    #1106245

    it was a fair question

    It was. The way it was asked, though, implied that if you don’t understand something, you don’t have to keep it, and it was that dangerous implication that I was objecting to.

    #1106246
    Student of Torah
    Participant

    if someone lives in chutz l’aretz in the times of moshiach there won’t be sfeifa d’yoma?

    #1106247

    mammele – perhaps many got it but don’t consider jokes aimed at people to be worth noting. perhaps.

    I don’t see how that has to be a joke aimed at a person or people, unless you’re judging on previous posts. There are many jokes based on typos or other mistakes. They’re not necessarily personal.

    I happened to get the joke, and I’m sure I’m not the only one who doesn’t comment on every joke appearing on the CR.

    #1106248

    We have 2-day Yomim Tovim so that we will be used to keeping

    2 days when Moshiach comes and kiddush hachodesh is

    once again performed by Beis Din. However, we may be able to communicate Beis Din’s decisions more quickly now.

    That’s the Chasam Sofer SDD linked, but it doesn’t answer for modern communication (except for R”H which is anyhow kept for two days in E.Y. as well).

    For that, perhaps Sam’s point is helpful, although I don’t necessarily think we overturn minhagim based on changing circumstances either.

    #1106249

    if you read it again you may find it wasn’t written that way. but that brings out the importance of giving an answer, and perhaps adding that you felt it was asked wrong. there is too much to lose in possibly judging incorrectly.

    we hear so many times how hurt (crushed, destroyed) people felt when their questions were met with reprimand. Many times, perhaps, their tone was wrong. but honestly, if they don’t recognize that their tone was wrong, all they hear is that they were bad for asking. the musser piece about not asking properly is far out in left field (to them).

    this doesnt imply you had bad intentions, this is just a good illustration of interactions we all should try very hard to avoid.

    there are many fragile people out there (or already broken) and it is our job (I believe) to answer questions, encourage questions, prove that there are always answers to our questions, and model or explain appropriateness separately.

    #1106250
    Mammele
    Participant

    DY: I don’t expect everybody to comment on every joke, nor do I, it’s just that nobody corrected 555 when he didn’t “chap”.

    #1106251
    147
    Participant

    By Purim we follow the wonderful rule of:- “When in Rome, do as the Romans”.

    Too bad this doesn’t work by Yom Tov Sheni.

    If we were truly to literally follow Minhag Avoseinu beYodeinu:- bear in mind that a tourist at the Beis haMikddosh would have kept 1 day Yom Tov, since he would know exact day of Yom Tov, so a tourist today logically should be doing what our ancestral tourists would have done.

    #1106252

    Syag, I hear you.

    I do want to point out that while there are always answers, it’s impossible to prove that, because we don’t always know the answers.

    The Chofetz Chaim famously said that for someone with emunah, there are no questions, and for someone r”l without, there are no answers (not to say that this is an emunah issue to that degree).

    Lesschumras, if I misjudged your intentions, I apologize.

    #1106253
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    147:

    I suppose that Halacha here follows the person not the circumstance. Nevertheless, one who must do different then the Makom, must do so b’tzina, in private.

    #1106254
    lesschumras
    Participant

    DY, apology accepted. I did not mean to imply that I didn’t hold yom tov sheni, I just didn’t understand why it was extended to visitors to EY where there never was a sfaika. Chazal didn’t set it up this way haphazardly, they had their valid reasons I don’t believe it to be a sign of disrespect or lack of emunah to seek the reasons why, rather than accept a because I said so answer.

    As an aside, a similar question came up this past Shmini Atzeres. Between Mincha and Maariv, the Rav gave a shiur on why Simchas Torah is attached to Shmini Atzeres and not Shavuos. It came up that Simchas Torah, in this ts current firm, only dates back to the Middle Ages. There is no mention of it prior to the Rishonim. I asked if that is so, why was it set up one way in EY ( on same day as SA ) and as a separate day in Chutz learetz? He didn’t remember seeing any sources. Does anyone have any sources for the difference?

    #1106255
    Sam2
    Participant

    LF and 147: It’s a Machlokes Achronim. The Lomdus is fascinating and sometimes kind of strange.

    DY: Presumably a Minhag that was established not Al Pi Beis Din can be removed by a B”D. It’s unclear if this is considered establish A”P B”D. I would presume that it is. I would also presume, though, that a Minhag that is established with a particular reason in mind can become Batel (by a B”D) if the reason is Batel. I think the Rambam says like that in Hilchos Sanhedrin. And there’s a long Tosfos on this… somewhere.

    This probably falls into the Machlokes Achronim referenced above, but I would presume that when we are again Mekadesh Al Pi R’iyah the Halachah goes back to anywhere that can find out in time will keep one day (which is what the Halachah is based on now, contrary to popular opinion; it’s not E”Y vs CHU”L, it’s E”Y and Aratzos HaSmuchos vs CHU”L), which will presumably be everywhere.

    #1106256

    I don’t believe it to be a sign of disrespect or lack of emunah to seek the reasons why, rather than accept a because I said so answer.

    No, of course not, ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????.

    Of course, l’maaseh we accept a “because I said so” answer, but not derech limud.

    I think LF is right that the gezeirah is on the people of (iow people who dwell in) chu”l rather than on the place (see ???? ???? ?”?). Query why that is so; as I recall, they were concerned that upon return, they will continue to keep one day, but I don’t remember where I saw that.

    Interesting question re: Simchas Torah. I’ll bl”n try to look around and try to find something. Perhaps I’ll be able to atone for my unwarranted insult (sorry again).

    #1106257

    LC, to answer your question, I’d like to first rephrase it. You wrote:”I asked if that is so, why was it set up one way in EY ( on same day as SA ) and as a separate day in Chutz learetz?”

    It’s not a separate day, it is the second day of Shmini Atzeres. It must perforce be different than E.Y. which only has one day, so if Simchas Torah was kept on the fist day in Chu”l, one could ask why that way.

    Still, why it’s on the first day rather than the second is a fair question.

    The ???? ??????? addresses this, and says it really should have been on Rosh Hashanah, but we don’t want the Satan to figure out when R”H is based on the parshiyos, and once it’s pushed off, we push it off until the end of the Yomim Tovim so as not to have a hefsek of the Yom Tom leining between the end and restart of the regular seder of reading the parshiyos.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14556&st=&pgnum=374&hilite=

    #1106258
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    less chumros

    There is a fantastic sefer on the subject called toldos chag simchas torah. All about the development of simchas torah over the ages.

    The author traces the development of many minhagim over the centuries both in chul and EY.

    #1106259
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    less chumros

    Part of the answer to your question lies in the fact that the kriah for Simchas Torah (i.e. the second day of shemini atzeres even before it recieved the name “simchas torah”) is Vezos habracha. This has nothing to do with regular Shabbos reading

    Even when the Torha was finished in three years. On Simchas Torah they lained vezos habracha. See Gemara end of Megila. Rashi gives the reason based on birchas hamelech

    With time this turned into the Simchas Torah we have today

    #1106260
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    Sam2: 2 day Yom Tov is not a Minhag. It is a Din D’Rabannan. This is a very important difference. The gimara (beitza 4b and other places) calls it a minhag; top tosafos sukkah 44b proves from here that we can make a b’racha on a minhag.

    DY: That’s the Chasam Sofer SDD linked, but it doesn’t answer for modern communication If you mean to say the chasam sofer didn’t realize there would be modern communications when mashiach comes, and had he realized that he wouldn’t have said what he did, then you’re right. I personally wouldn’t want to say that about the chasam sofer.

    #1106261

    SDD, Rosh Hashanah won’t change because the Shabbos App is a farce.

    #1106262
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    I don’t know what the Shabbos App is.

    #1106263
    Sam2
    Participant

    sdd: The Gemara might be saying that one of the two reasons that people kept Yom Tov Sheni back then was because of a “Minhag”. The reason we keep it is because it’s a Din D’rabannan.

    #1106264
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    sam2: that’s an interesting way of reading the g’mara. But the tosafos I mentioned sounds like even nowadays it’s a minhag. Also, the rambam (?????? ??”?, ?, ??) writes:

    ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????. ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????:

    #1106265
    pcoz
    Member

    It is a safek.

    #1106266
    Student of Torah
    Participant

    even if it is a minhag it is still a minhag yisroel, which has the din of a halacha

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