October 20, 2015 2:07 am at 2:07 am #616494
will there be sfieka d’yoma when moshiach comes?October 20, 2015 2:20 am at 2:20 am #1106226☢️ 🚭 ☣️ Rand0m3x 🧠🕴️🎲Participant
That depends on whether modern communications systems
are abandoned, and whether they are replaced.October 20, 2015 2:33 am at 2:33 am #1106227JosephParticipant
Why would modern communications systems be abandoned?October 20, 2015 2:52 am at 2:52 am #1106228147Participant
The only Sefeiko d’Yoma that shall continue is:- 1) Someone dying during Adar:- Shal Yahrzeit be in Adar 1 or in Adar 2? 2) Someone dying on 30th of month, and when goes Al Pi Re’Iyo:- Shall Johrzeit be on 29th or 1st when no 30th? 1) What to do with Yahrzeit’s on the 1st, when don’t if that day is going to end up being 1st or 30th? 4) Anyone between 90 degrees East of Yerusholayim and 180 degrees from Yerusholayim, not knowing whether in Halachic Far East or in Halachic Far West?October 20, 2015 9:52 am at 9:52 am #1106229nishtdayngesheftParticipant
And, apparently there will be a safek if the Yom is called Yahrtzeit or Johrtzeit.October 20, 2015 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #1106230555Participant
There is no safek about that. That depends on if you are European and call it Johrtzeit or American and call it Yartzeit. The safek is, if there will be any difference between Europeans and Americans at that time and how they get to E”Y.
What Yartzeit or Johrtzeit will be held after T’Chiyas Hamaisim? The of their own past death? The day of the Tchiya? Both?October 20, 2015 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #1106231
Tzaddikim will hold only one day. Tzaddikim are niftar on the day they’re born.October 20, 2015 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1106232October 20, 2015 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1106233
There is no sfeika deyona, only a minhag. We’ve had a calendar for 1500 yearsOctober 20, 2015 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #1106234
That is the root of the question. Will our minhag continue?October 20, 2015 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1106235
Why should it continue? I’ve never understood why a halacha created for chutz laaretz morphed into a minhag that had to be followed when visiting Israel, where there wasn’t and isn’t, a sfaika deyomaOctober 20, 2015 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #1106236
2 day Yom Tov is not a Minhag. It is a Din D’Rabannan. This is a very important difference.October 21, 2015 12:00 am at 12:00 am #1106237
I don’t claim I know either. I’m not a Talmudician, not a Rabbi, never claimed to know.
I think it’s called Minhag avosainu byadeinu. And that may have been what kept us a a nation, unwavering, throughout all the generations. We followed our sages regardless if we (and them) knew the right day. ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ????. So it follows naturally that we follow our mesorah too, even in Eretz Yisroel. We’re still listening to our Sages.October 21, 2015 12:36 am at 12:36 am #1106238MammeleParticipant
Apparently nobody got Nisht’s joke as 147 had both variations of “Yahrtzeit” in one post.
editedOctober 21, 2015 12:43 am at 12:43 am #1106239555Participant
LF: That’s a contradiction because the sages said it was for chutz laaretz and now its being kept in E”Y. Back in the day when they were around nobody from chutz kept 2 days if they were Oleh Regel. Besides there is the concept of Minhag Hamokom. Like Tzinding lecht. If your at somebody’s house who makes early shabbos in the summer, you tzind the same time they do even if you usualy are not m’kabel shabbos early.October 21, 2015 12:44 am at 12:44 am #1106240
Why should it continue? I’ve never understood why a halacha created for chutz laaretz morphed into a minhag that had to be followed when visiting Israel, where there wasn’t and isn’t, a sfaika deyoma
We don’t change dinim (or even minhagim) just because you don’t understand them.October 21, 2015 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1106241☢️ 🚭 ☣️ Rand0m3x 🧠🕴️🎲Participant
We have 2-day Yomim Tovim so that we will be used to keeping
2 days when Moshiach comes and kiddush hachodesh is
once again performed by Beis Din. However, we may be able to communicate Beis Din’s decisions more quickly now.October 21, 2015 12:48 am at 12:48 am #1106242JosephParticipant
147 is half Yekke and half Oberlander.October 21, 2015 12:55 am at 12:55 am #1106243
We don’t change dinim (or even minhagim) just because you don’t understand them.
regardless of his intent (which I dont know), it was a fair question that many may have, and i have no doubt there is a respectable answer that would encourage understanding of the system.October 21, 2015 12:57 am at 12:57 am #1106244
mammele – perhaps many got it but don’t consider jokes aimed at people to be worth noting. perhaps.October 21, 2015 1:31 am at 1:31 am #1106245
it was a fair question
It was. The way it was asked, though, implied that if you don’t understand something, you don’t have to keep it, and it was that dangerous implication that I was objecting to.October 21, 2015 1:44 am at 1:44 am #1106246
if someone lives in chutz l’aretz in the times of moshiach there won’t be sfeifa d’yoma?October 21, 2015 1:47 am at 1:47 am #1106247
mammele – perhaps many got it but don’t consider jokes aimed at people to be worth noting. perhaps.
I don’t see how that has to be a joke aimed at a person or people, unless you’re judging on previous posts. There are many jokes based on typos or other mistakes. They’re not necessarily personal.
I happened to get the joke, and I’m sure I’m not the only one who doesn’t comment on every joke appearing on the CR.October 21, 2015 1:52 am at 1:52 am #1106248
We have 2-day Yomim Tovim so that we will be used to keeping
2 days when Moshiach comes and kiddush hachodesh is
once again performed by Beis Din. However, we may be able to communicate Beis Din’s decisions more quickly now.
That’s the Chasam Sofer SDD linked, but it doesn’t answer for modern communication (except for R”H which is anyhow kept for two days in E.Y. as well).
For that, perhaps Sam’s point is helpful, although I don’t necessarily think we overturn minhagim based on changing circumstances either.October 21, 2015 2:00 am at 2:00 am #1106249
if you read it again you may find it wasn’t written that way. but that brings out the importance of giving an answer, and perhaps adding that you felt it was asked wrong. there is too much to lose in possibly judging incorrectly.
we hear so many times how hurt (crushed, destroyed) people felt when their questions were met with reprimand. Many times, perhaps, their tone was wrong. but honestly, if they don’t recognize that their tone was wrong, all they hear is that they were bad for asking. the musser piece about not asking properly is far out in left field (to them).
this doesnt imply you had bad intentions, this is just a good illustration of interactions we all should try very hard to avoid.
there are many fragile people out there (or already broken) and it is our job (I believe) to answer questions, encourage questions, prove that there are always answers to our questions, and model or explain appropriateness separately.October 21, 2015 2:10 am at 2:10 am #1106250MammeleParticipant
DY: I don’t expect everybody to comment on every joke, nor do I, it’s just that nobody corrected 555 when he didn’t “chap”.October 21, 2015 2:30 am at 2:30 am #1106251147Participant
By Purim we follow the wonderful rule of:- “When in Rome, do as the Romans”.
Too bad this doesn’t work by Yom Tov Sheni.
If we were truly to literally follow Minhag Avoseinu beYodeinu:- bear in mind that a tourist at the Beis haMikddosh would have kept 1 day Yom Tov, since he would know exact day of Yom Tov, so a tourist today logically should be doing what our ancestral tourists would have done.October 21, 2015 2:31 am at 2:31 am #1106252
Syag, I hear you.
I do want to point out that while there are always answers, it’s impossible to prove that, because we don’t always know the answers.
The Chofetz Chaim famously said that for someone with emunah, there are no questions, and for someone r”l without, there are no answers (not to say that this is an emunah issue to that degree).
Lesschumras, if I misjudged your intentions, I apologize.October 21, 2015 2:47 am at 2:47 am #1106253
I suppose that Halacha here follows the person not the circumstance. Nevertheless, one who must do different then the Makom, must do so b’tzina, in private.October 21, 2015 3:12 am at 3:12 am #1106254
DY, apology accepted. I did not mean to imply that I didn’t hold yom tov sheni, I just didn’t understand why it was extended to visitors to EY where there never was a sfaika. Chazal didn’t set it up this way haphazardly, they had their valid reasons I don’t believe it to be a sign of disrespect or lack of emunah to seek the reasons why, rather than accept a because I said so answer.
As an aside, a similar question came up this past Shmini Atzeres. Between Mincha and Maariv, the Rav gave a shiur on why Simchas Torah is attached to Shmini Atzeres and not Shavuos. It came up that Simchas Torah, in this ts current firm, only dates back to the Middle Ages. There is no mention of it prior to the Rishonim. I asked if that is so, why was it set up one way in EY ( on same day as SA ) and as a separate day in Chutz learetz? He didn’t remember seeing any sources. Does anyone have any sources for the difference?October 21, 2015 3:58 am at 3:58 am #1106255
LF and 147: It’s a Machlokes Achronim. The Lomdus is fascinating and sometimes kind of strange.
DY: Presumably a Minhag that was established not Al Pi Beis Din can be removed by a B”D. It’s unclear if this is considered establish A”P B”D. I would presume that it is. I would also presume, though, that a Minhag that is established with a particular reason in mind can become Batel (by a B”D) if the reason is Batel. I think the Rambam says like that in Hilchos Sanhedrin. And there’s a long Tosfos on this… somewhere.
This probably falls into the Machlokes Achronim referenced above, but I would presume that when we are again Mekadesh Al Pi R’iyah the Halachah goes back to anywhere that can find out in time will keep one day (which is what the Halachah is based on now, contrary to popular opinion; it’s not E”Y vs CHU”L, it’s E”Y and Aratzos HaSmuchos vs CHU”L), which will presumably be everywhere.October 21, 2015 4:03 am at 4:03 am #1106256
I don’t believe it to be a sign of disrespect or lack of emunah to seek the reasons why, rather than accept a because I said so answer.
No, of course not, ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????.
Of course, l’maaseh we accept a “because I said so” answer, but not derech limud.
I think LF is right that the gezeirah is on the people of (iow people who dwell in) chu”l rather than on the place (see ???? ???? ?”?). Query why that is so; as I recall, they were concerned that upon return, they will continue to keep one day, but I don’t remember where I saw that.
Interesting question re: Simchas Torah. I’ll bl”n try to look around and try to find something. Perhaps I’ll be able to atone for my unwarranted insult (sorry again).October 21, 2015 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #1106257
LC, to answer your question, I’d like to first rephrase it. You wrote:”I asked if that is so, why was it set up one way in EY ( on same day as SA ) and as a separate day in Chutz learetz?”
It’s not a separate day, it is the second day of Shmini Atzeres. It must perforce be different than E.Y. which only has one day, so if Simchas Torah was kept on the fist day in Chu”l, one could ask why that way.
Still, why it’s on the first day rather than the second is a fair question.
The ???? ??????? addresses this, and says it really should have been on Rosh Hashanah, but we don’t want the Satan to figure out when R”H is based on the parshiyos, and once it’s pushed off, we push it off until the end of the Yomim Tovim so as not to have a hefsek of the Yom Tom leining between the end and restart of the regular seder of reading the parshiyos.October 21, 2015 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #1106258ubiquitinParticipant
There is a fantastic sefer on the subject called toldos chag simchas torah. All about the development of simchas torah over the ages.
The author traces the development of many minhagim over the centuries both in chul and EY.October 21, 2015 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1106259ubiquitinParticipant
Part of the answer to your question lies in the fact that the kriah for Simchas Torah (i.e. the second day of shemini atzeres even before it recieved the name “simchas torah”) is Vezos habracha. This has nothing to do with regular Shabbos reading
Even when the Torha was finished in three years. On Simchas Torah they lained vezos habracha. See Gemara end of Megila. Rashi gives the reason based on birchas hamelech
With time this turned into the Simchas Torah we have todayOctober 21, 2015 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #1106260
Sam2: 2 day Yom Tov is not a Minhag. It is a Din D’Rabannan. This is a very important difference. The gimara (beitza 4b and other places) calls it a minhag; top tosafos sukkah 44b proves from here that we can make a b’racha on a minhag.
DY: That’s the Chasam Sofer SDD linked, but it doesn’t answer for modern communication If you mean to say the chasam sofer didn’t realize there would be modern communications when mashiach comes, and had he realized that he wouldn’t have said what he did, then you’re right. I personally wouldn’t want to say that about the chasam sofer.October 21, 2015 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #1106261
SDD, Rosh Hashanah won’t change because the Shabbos App is a farce.October 21, 2015 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #1106262
I don’t know what the Shabbos App is.October 21, 2015 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #1106263
sdd: The Gemara might be saying that one of the two reasons that people kept Yom Tov Sheni back then was because of a “Minhag”. The reason we keep it is because it’s a Din D’rabannan.October 22, 2015 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1106264
sam2: that’s an interesting way of reading the g’mara. But the tosafos I mentioned sounds like even nowadays it’s a minhag. Also, the rambam (?????? ??”?, ?, ??) writes:
?? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????. ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????:October 23, 2015 12:18 am at 12:18 am #1106265pcozMember
It is a safek.October 23, 2015 1:21 am at 1:21 am #1106266
even if it is a minhag it is still a minhag yisroel, which has the din of a halacha
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