Shaatnez testing Brooks Brothers Suits

Always check.

To clarify, linen is expensive, but keeps clothing looking stiff. Putting it in collar or in lining gives your suit more polish. Generally speaking, it’s put into more quality clothing. If a cheaper brand runs out of collars, might they order linen to keep production running? Probably not, but possibly. Need to be concerned? Question for LOR.

If it has wool, check it.
If it is polyester and comes from certain countries, check it. Although it may say virgin material polyester, often they will use recycled material for parts like the shoulders. The recycled materials are very likely to contain Shatnez.

The chiyuv to spend money to check for shatnez, generally, is highly questionable. Brooks brothers suits, however, bc of the frequency of shatnez found in them, may be an exception.

Don’t ask shatnez checkers. They are technical experts, not rabbanim. It’s like asking a restaurant owner if they’re kosher when there is no hechsher. The financial incentive creates huge biases. Ask a qualified rabbi who is familiar with facts on the ground. And anyone who doesn’t answer you in terms of chiyuv (i.e. you are not mechuyav but a bal nefesh should spend some money vs. “why wouldn’t you, it doesn’t hurt?”) should not be answering the shaila.

seems that linen can be identified by burning and fiber structure under microscope
take known linen and study how it burns and looks, then compare w other fabrics

I’m a Rav, and in my opinion, suits should be checked for shatnez.
30+ years ago I used to wear BB suits. Always got them checked and never found shatnez. Still think you should check it.

“That checker could find Shatnez in a head of lettuce.”

Its a bit early in the AM here on the West Coast so I’ll ask if that is meant as a compliment to imply the checker is truly a rigorous, machmir expert or alternatively, less than the sharpest knife in the drawer.

As a certified shatnez checker myself who has learned the halachos I will tell you it is not secret.
I have certification from Lakewood- R’ Sayagh and Shochet. There are two “schools” essentially, meaning two ways shatnez checkers are trained and work. Lakewood teaches how to check, Williamsburg teaches how to take samples to send back to Williamsburg for checking. Regardless, the halacha is clearly gepaskened in shulchan aruch. If you have a garment with wool then you are half way to an issue. If you have a garment of linen, you are half way to an issur. The halacha requires one check a begged if it has one or the other to see if it has both. It’s that simple.
When I check a men’s suit I look at:
Button threads
Button holes
Reinforcements on the underside of all pockets
The dart
The Collar
The Canvas
The Shoulder pads
The inside of the waistband
Inside of the belt loops

Skirts and sweaters are much easier. You have less places it can be hiding. You look for selvedges, reinforcements and the end of each place it’s sowed together and decorations.

And of course you have to look at the fabric itself. Sometimes its not labeled accurately. Linen has a sheen look to it. There are other details used to discern the identity of the fabric or thread.

The big question is whether or not you can rely on a chazaka. Lakewood says no, Williamsburg says yes.
Rav Chaim was clear that you could, I also personally asked Rav Nota Greenblatt and he said “why not?”

The other issue is China- they will sow anything in as a reinforcement behind the dart or pockets. Meaning, there can be unintentional shatnez. Otherwise, expensive suits use linen in the collar and canvases because it provides a superior drape.

GadolH,
It was not a compliment. If a regular checker looks at 10 places on a suit he would look at 25. Also, some checking requires opening the clothing so going overboard is not a good thing.

I’ve regularly bought Brooks Brothers suits for years, and every single one of them had the exact same Shatnez issue – the collar stiffener, which was 100% linen. Fortunately, it’s a pretty easy fix, but you need to make sure that the one fixing it is Makpid to completely remove the entire old stiffener before sewing the new, non-linen one, in place. It can be easier to just cut the old one out, leaving edges in place, rather than ripping out at the seams.

an Israeli Yid

In this case we reap what we sow, we gave China most favored nation status and now they took over the manufacturing sector.

“IndoChino”

To the extent you are asking about their custom-made suits (or those of other custom tailors), you have the option of specifying fabrics and linings, to avoid any issues (although you still may want to check the finished product). I’m guessing they also have ready-made suits at lower prices points so those need to be treated like any other off-the-rack garments.

Avira – “It is an absolute obligation to check suits for shaatnez when many such items have it.”

How many suits of yours have been found to have shatnez? Your direct acquaintances’ suits? How common is common? These are halakhic shiurim. The last time I asked a competent halakhic authority I was told that for a generic cheap wool suit there is no *obligation* to spend money to check. But for Brooks brothers I was told to spend money to check.

I have no idea who the “authority” is who you received that response to, but it’s the same as buying lettuce, looking for bugs and then eating it when you don’t immediately find any. This is something some modern Orthodox people do, and it’s potentially worse than eating chazir, as every bug carries 5 laavin with it.

As for how common it is, it’s happened to me personally a few times. And i only buy cheap stuff. You never know when they’ll decide to use linen in the collar, or in the lining if it’s scrap material.

Ask the Mikdash melech shaatnez lab in z. Bermans on coney island avenue for dozens of examples of shatnez found in everything from sweaters to scarves; anything that has wool. They have examples on their walls. And if you think they’re nogaya bedavar, take a look at their prices and get to know the people involved; they’re some of the most selfless people I know. They’re genuinely determined to save the tzibur from shaatnez.

Chazal say that one who wears shatnez does not have his tefilos answered. This applies even to unintentional transgressions. Inagine davening your heart out on yom kippur only for it not to matter because you couldn’t be bothered to spend 7 dollars on checking your suit for shaatnez…

“Chazal say that one who wears shatnez does not have his tefilos answered….”

Imagine losing your chelek of olam haboh because of a trip to Men’s Warehouse. For yidden living OOT, with no shatnes lab in close proximity, sending new clothing, footwear, etc. to a lab is frequently not a viable or affordable option

> one who wears shatnez does not have his tefilos answered

technical question: wears during davening or in general? if the former, try davening in your shirt. If a suit is Yehareg V’al Ya’avor in your kahal, at least diversify and wear suits from different manufacturer on different days.

Gadol, the world is indeed a narrow bridge; people can lose – but also gain – eternity in a moment; chazal say both of those things.

As for OOT communities; who says there are no shaatnez checkers? In established communities I’m sure there are. And if there aren’t, it’s just another reason among many to live only in a makom Torah (and yes most OOT communities are perfectly within the definition of makom Torah, to be clear)

Dorah,

1) Many communities, much smaller in size than even Cleveland or Baltimore have people who check shatnez. Either as sample takers which they forward to a lab or they are fully trained.

2) You are now creating a new heter to wear shatnez if you live in a small community?

It is absolutely necessary for the Shatnez lobby to explain what they’re looking for and what test they run to determine shatnez.

Arguments like this, from a “Rav”, demonstrate why this is a problem that needs to be addressed:
“I’m a Rav, and in my opinion, suits should be checked for shatnez.
30+ years ago I used to wear BB suits. Always got them checked and never found shatnez. Still think you should check it.”

Different checkers obtain different results. Your mileage should NEVER vary.

Hello everyone. I just sent 3 suits to the Shatnez lab. 2 were travelers edition and 1 was a regular 1818 suit. All had linen collar stiffeners. In the past few years, I bought 7 Brooks Brothers suits, which were all Shatnez. I would strongly advise anyone against wearing a Brooks Brothers suit without testing.

Thanks

Avira > do you really want to risk all of your tefilos because you couldn’t bring yourself to spend 7 dollars?

This is actually a great way to look at thing. You are paraphrasing Pascal wager – finite v infinite risk. For example, would you risk cutting off another car, risking that the driver is say an orphan or a widow, or any women, and she gets upset, an her prayer against you will be answered immediately. Obviously, no yareh shamaim will take such risk, QED.

what – davening without a jacket is also asur?