January 7, 2024 1:44 am at 1:44 am #2251723
Recently I purchased a suit from the local Brooks Brothers store at a deep discount.
All my previous suits were polyester, so I never thought about sending them to be checked although in hindsight I probably should have. This one is all wool. Does anyone have any information about this specific brand, and if I should be careful about not wearing it before I get it checked?
It’s made in Egypt, if that helps. I’ve heard that some countries are less trustworthy than others when it comes to shaatnez.January 7, 2024 8:04 am at 8:04 am #2251725ujmParticipant
Always check.January 7, 2024 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #2251789funnyboneParticipant
Local shatnez checker should be able to give you direction. Italian and German clothing must always be checked, as linen is used often in these better made products. Cheap made in china or Vietnam might not, again check with your shaatnez checker or lor. I would assume that Brooks Brother makes better quality and might order items with linen.January 7, 2024 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #2251790funnyboneParticipant
To clarify, linen is expensive, but keeps clothing looking stiff. Putting it in collar or in lining gives your suit more polish. Generally speaking, it’s put into more quality clothing. If a cheaper brand runs out of collars, might they order linen to keep production running? Probably not, but possibly. Need to be concerned? Question for LOR.January 7, 2024 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #2251798unomminParticipant
Please explain why the process of testing for shatnaz is kept secret from the public. If it’s not a secret, please provide a description of the process or a link to one.January 7, 2024 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #2251807@fakenewsParticipant
If it has wool, check it.
If it is polyester and comes from certain countries, check it. Although it may say virgin material polyester, often they will use recycled material for parts like the shoulders. The recycled materials are very likely to contain Shatnez.January 7, 2024 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #2251814RockyParticipant
The higher end brooks brothers usually do have shatnez. However, the question is completely irrelevant as any suit with wool or linen needs to be checked.January 7, 2024 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #2251842frumnotyeshivishParticipant
The chiyuv to spend money to check for shatnez, generally, is highly questionable. Brooks brothers suits, however, bc of the frequency of shatnez found in them, may be an exception.
Don’t ask shatnez checkers. They are technical experts, not rabbanim. It’s like asking a restaurant owner if they’re kosher when there is no hechsher. The financial incentive creates huge biases. Ask a qualified rabbi who is familiar with facts on the ground. And anyone who doesn’t answer you in terms of chiyuv (i.e. you are not mechuyav but a bal nefesh should spend some money vs. “why wouldn’t you, it doesn’t hurt?”) should not be answering the shaila.January 7, 2024 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #2251864
It’s not a secret just most people have no interest in learning how to check for & identify Shatnez.
Also, there are different kinds of checkers. Where I’m from a Talmud asked the Rosh Yeshiva about a certain “Checker” & his response was, “That checker could find Shatnez in a head of lettuce.” It’s not just competency about Shatnez it’s knowing what & where there could be issues without going overboard & ruining the garment as well.January 8, 2024 1:46 am at 1:46 am #2251888
seems that linen can be identified by burning and fiber structure under microscope
take known linen and study how it burns and looks, then compare w other fabricsJanuary 8, 2024 3:49 am at 3:49 am #2251920
Thanks everyone for the insight. I live a very far drive away from the nearest shaatnez lab so it is something of a tircha, but it sounds like it is worth it.January 8, 2024 9:00 am at 9:00 am #2251970hello99Participant
I’m a Rav, and in my opinion, suits should be checked for shatnez.
30+ years ago I used to wear BB suits. Always got them checked and never found shatnez. Still think you should check it.January 8, 2024 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #2252038
It is an absolute obligation to check suits for shaatnez when many such items have it. It’s no different than checking for bugs in lettuce. It’s not “questionable.” You’re not allowed to wear shaatnez and you can’t assume that something doesn’t have it when you know that many do, even a miut, because we don’t go after the rov/majority when it’s efshar levrurei, possible to clarify. What that has to do with money is irrelevant; if you can spend money on a suit, spend 8 dollars to get it checked. Some checkers do it for free if they know a person is strapped for cash. The shaatnez community is one of the most ehrlich segments of klal yisroel, in my many dealings with checkers.January 8, 2024 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #2251979
“That checker could find Shatnez in a head of lettuce.”
Its a bit early in the AM here on the West Coast so I’ll ask if that is meant as a compliment to imply the checker is truly a rigorous, machmir expert or alternatively, less than the sharpest knife in the drawer.January 8, 2024 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #2251992maskildoreshParticipant
Why did you switch from polyester to BB suits?
Did leasure suits go out of style?January 8, 2024 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #2252204theroshyeshivaParticipant
As a certified shatnez checker myself who has learned the halachos I will tell you it is not secret.
I have certification from Lakewood- R’ Sayagh and Shochet. There are two “schools” essentially, meaning two ways shatnez checkers are trained and work. Lakewood teaches how to check, Williamsburg teaches how to take samples to send back to Williamsburg for checking. Regardless, the halacha is clearly gepaskened in shulchan aruch. If you have a garment with wool then you are half way to an issue. If you have a garment of linen, you are half way to an issur. The halacha requires one check a begged if it has one or the other to see if it has both. It’s that simple.
When I check a men’s suit I look at:
Reinforcements on the underside of all pockets
The Shoulder pads
The inside of the waistband
Inside of the belt loops
Skirts and sweaters are much easier. You have less places it can be hiding. You look for selvedges, reinforcements and the end of each place it’s sowed together and decorations.
And of course you have to look at the fabric itself. Sometimes its not labeled accurately. Linen has a sheen look to it. There are other details used to discern the identity of the fabric or thread.
The big question is whether or not you can rely on a chazaka. Lakewood says no, Williamsburg says yes.
Rav Chaim was clear that you could, I also personally asked Rav Nota Greenblatt and he said “why not?”
The other issue is China- they will sow anything in as a reinforcement behind the dart or pockets. Meaning, there can be unintentional shatnez. Otherwise, expensive suits use linen in the collar and canvases because it provides a superior drape.January 9, 2024 8:13 am at 8:13 am #2252250commonsaychelParticipant
“The other issue is China- they will sow anything”
We reap what we sowJanuary 9, 2024 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #2252387
It was not a compliment. If a regular checker looks at 10 places on a suit he would look at 25. Also, some checking requires opening the clothing so going overboard is not a good thing.January 9, 2024 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #2252401theroshyeshivaParticipant
Honestly, many rabbonim do not know these halachos either. I say that factually, not judgmentally. I have had many rabbonim in the community tell people who ask them shatnez shailos to go ask me. Honestly, most checkers also never learned the halachos well. The course is a technical one, not a halachik one.
Another example- how do we pasken about a chibur al yedei davar acher? All the checkers are machmir. The rema is clearly matir it and whoever I’ve asked hasn’t showed me a mekor to be machmir. Most of the velt has never learned these halachos.January 10, 2024 7:58 am at 7:58 am #2252590anIsraeliYidParticipant
I’ve regularly bought Brooks Brothers suits for years, and every single one of them had the exact same Shatnez issue – the collar stiffener, which was 100% linen. Fortunately, it’s a pretty easy fix, but you need to make sure that the one fixing it is Makpid to completely remove the entire old stiffener before sewing the new, non-linen one, in place. It can be easier to just cut the old one out, leaving edges in place, rather than ripping out at the seams.
an Israeli YidJanuary 10, 2024 7:58 am at 7:58 am #2252594
All good arguments to buy a top of the line Brooks Brothers polyester suit (made in China).January 10, 2024 7:58 am at 7:58 am #2252613commonsaychelParticipant
In this case we reap what we sow, we gave China most favored nation status and now they took over the manufacturing sector.January 10, 2024 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #2252806FollowMesorahParticipant
Does anyone know about indochino suits?January 11, 2024 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #2253052
To the extent you are asking about their custom-made suits (or those of other custom tailors), you have the option of specifying fabrics and linings, to avoid any issues (although you still may want to check the finished product). I’m guessing they also have ready-made suits at lower prices points so those need to be treated like any other off-the-rack garments.January 11, 2024 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #2253110
an Israeli Yid
Thank you, that is helpfulJanuary 11, 2024 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #2253123frumnotyeshivishParticipant
Avira – “It is an absolute obligation to check suits for shaatnez when many such items have it.”
How many suits of yours have been found to have shatnez? Your direct acquaintances’ suits? How common is common? These are halakhic shiurim. The last time I asked a competent halakhic authority I was told that for a generic cheap wool suit there is no *obligation* to spend money to check. But for Brooks brothers I was told to spend money to check.January 11, 2024 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #2253126
We should follow the Tzionim concerning Shabbos garb. Blue khaki pants, simple white shirt=no problem with Shatnez.January 13, 2024 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #2253312
I have no idea who the “authority” is who you received that response to, but it’s the same as buying lettuce, looking for bugs and then eating it when you don’t immediately find any. This is something some modern Orthodox people do, and it’s potentially worse than eating chazir, as every bug carries 5 laavin with it.
As for how common it is, it’s happened to me personally a few times. And i only buy cheap stuff. You never know when they’ll decide to use linen in the collar, or in the lining if it’s scrap material.
Ask the Mikdash melech shaatnez lab in z. Bermans on coney island avenue for dozens of examples of shatnez found in everything from sweaters to scarves; anything that has wool. They have examples on their walls. And if you think they’re nogaya bedavar, take a look at their prices and get to know the people involved; they’re some of the most selfless people I know. They’re genuinely determined to save the tzibur from shaatnez.
Chazal say that one who wears shatnez does not have his tefilos answered. This applies even to unintentional transgressions. Inagine davening your heart out on yom kippur only for it not to matter because you couldn’t be bothered to spend 7 dollars on checking your suit for shaatnez…January 13, 2024 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #2253319
I dont know what will be a cutoff for checking something, but products can vary a lot. For an easy to see problem, bug in salad – it depends what store you are buying it from, where and how it was grown, how it was processed, etc. So, some people may encounter them daily may not understand those who never saw them and vice versaJanuary 13, 2024 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #2253316
“Chazal say that one who wears shatnez does not have his tefilos answered….”
Imagine losing your chelek of olam haboh because of a trip to Men’s Warehouse. For yidden living OOT, with no shatnes lab in close proximity, sending new clothing, footwear, etc. to a lab is frequently not a viable or affordable optionJanuary 13, 2024 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #2253318
>> How many suits of yours have been found to have shatnez?
> As for how common it is, it’s happened to me personally a few times.
examples from checkers are of course are not a statistics, even if they are most kosher. And we have here people from different places. Could you try to quantify how many of how many suits had it, was it vadai or sofek, and what was the source of the beged. Maybe we can see the picture better then.January 14, 2024 9:38 am at 9:38 am #2253402
> one who wears shatnez does not have his tefilos answered
technical question: wears during davening or in general? if the former, try davening in your shirt. If a suit is Yehareg V’al Ya’avor in your kahal, at least diversify and wear suits from different manufacturer on different days.January 14, 2024 11:30 am at 11:30 am #2253454Reb EliezerParticipant
A directory is available at testshatnez.comJanuary 14, 2024 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #2253501
Gadol, the world is indeed a narrow bridge; people can lose – but also gain – eternity in a moment; chazal say both of those things.
As for OOT communities; who says there are no shaatnez checkers? In established communities I’m sure there are. And if there aren’t, it’s just another reason among many to live only in a makom Torah (and yes most OOT communities are perfectly within the definition of makom Torah, to be clear)January 15, 2024 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2253719
AVD: When I mentioned OOT communities, I was not referring to Cleveland or Baltimore but much smaller locations where there aren’t any shatnes labs in close proximity. B’H, there are many more locations today outside of major metro areas and the lower cost of overnight shipping makes it feasible to actually send packages to a lab for testing where there is no local capability.January 15, 2024 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #2253761nishtdayngesheftParticipant
1) Many communities, much smaller in size than even Cleveland or Baltimore have people who check shatnez. Either as sample takers which they forward to a lab or they are fully trained.
2) You are now creating a new heter to wear shatnez if you live in a small community?January 15, 2024 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #2253767keithParticipant
Personally, living in the Los Angeles valley, I’ve had at least two and possibly three or four shots/sports jackets that were Shatnez. I think all but one or two could be corrected (eg collar lining removed) but the suit didn’t look as nice after. One was inherently Shatnez and I had it checked when it was too late to return so I gave it away to a gentile.January 16, 2024 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #2254012unomminParticipant
It is absolutely necessary for the Shatnez lobby to explain what they’re looking for and what test they run to determine shatnez.
Arguments like this, from a “Rav”, demonstrate why this is a problem that needs to be addressed:
“I’m a Rav, and in my opinion, suits should be checked for shatnez.
30+ years ago I used to wear BB suits. Always got them checked and never found shatnez. Still think you should check it.”
Different checkers obtain different results. Your mileage should NEVER vary.January 16, 2024 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #2254148
There’s no “shaatnez lobby” – people who check for shatnez are not wealthy. They barely cover the basic expenses with the paltry amount they charge.
I repeat, do you really want to risk all of your tefilos because you couldn’t bring yourself to spend 7 dollars? You probably spent twice that amount on an average breakfast.January 17, 2024 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #2254363789644Participant
Hello everyone. I just sent 3 suits to the Shatnez lab. 2 were travelers edition and 1 was a regular 1818 suit. All had linen collar stiffeners. In the past few years, I bought 7 Brooks Brothers suits, which were all Shatnez. I would strongly advise anyone against wearing a Brooks Brothers suit without testing.
ThanksJanuary 19, 2024 12:49 am at 12:49 am #2254887
> do you really want to risk all of your tefilos because you couldn’t bring yourself to spend 7 dollars?
maybe I missed the answer to the question – can I just take the jacket off for davening?January 19, 2024 12:53 am at 12:53 am #2254888
Avira > do you really want to risk all of your tefilos because you couldn’t bring yourself to spend 7 dollars?
This is actually a great way to look at thing. You are paraphrasing Pascal wager – finite v infinite risk. For example, would you risk cutting off another car, risking that the driver is say an orphan or a widow, or any women, and she gets upset, an her prayer against you will be answered immediately. Obviously, no yareh shamaim will take such risk, QED.January 19, 2024 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #2254997nishtdayngesheftParticipant
You asked the following about wearing shatnez suit:
“maybe I missed the answer to the question – can I just take the jacket off for davening?”
Really. And you always ask questions?January 20, 2024 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #2255132
what – davening without a jacket is also asur?January 26, 2024 12:32 am at 12:32 am #2256351
Mine is also a Travelers Edition. I took it to a local tailor to see what they could do, and they said that if they tried to replace the collar stiffener the suit would be totally ruined. I’m at something of a loss at this point. Did the lab you sent them to fix them in a manner that was satisfactory?
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