- This topic has 28 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 2 weeks ago by .
-
Posts
-
Recently we had a Shabbos guest who wears a Life Alert device, which has a button that can be pushed in case of emergency to summon help. The device must be GPS location enabled, because if the button is pushed and the device-wearer doesn’t respond that everything’s ok, relatives are called and Hatzola is also notified that there’s an emergency and given the person’s location. The button was accidentally pushed on Shabbos, and the wearer didn’t respond quickly enough, so phone calls were made. I am not a Hatzola member, but my thought was that I should pick up the phone and tell the operator that everything was OK and no emergency response was needed – why should one or more Hatzola members be compelled to respond when in truth there was no emergency? Wouldn’t it be better for me to answer the phone than for them to get in their cars and drive over, as well as all other actions that would be forbidden on Shabbos if not for pikuach nefesh? Someone mentioned a different way of looking at the situation – I would knowingly be picking up the phone while aware there was no emergency, but Hatzola responders would not knowingly be doing something that’s assur on Shabbos without pikuach nefesh. One additional factor to consider is my not answering possibly making a Hatzola person unavailable to respond to a genuine emergency.
To summarize, I’d appreciate halachic guidance for this situation. Should I have answered the phone and told the caller the button was pushed accidentally and there wasn’t an emergency? I’d be especially interested to hear from a Hatzola posek who may have previously dealt with this type of question.
Thank you.How about answering the phone with a Shinui – i.e., pushing the button with a knuckle or the like? The main Issur with a phone is making the connection, not speaking once it’s made. Considering that (a) according to most Poskim, electricity for uses other than an incandescent bulb is a derabanan, and (b) answering with a shinui is also a derabanan, it would seem that that would be preferable to having someone from Hatzala possibly do a deoreisa by driving over.
an Israeli Yid
Why are you directing a serious Halachic question to this Coffee Room?
Why not ask an Orthodox Rabbi?
This is a great topic for discussion! However, while CR posts may provide interesting information or other points to consider with your shaila, I would not expect to hear from a posek on the CR, and for actual guidance you really should seek out a rav that you know to be reliable.
That said, once not on Shabbos, one of my kids dialed 9-1-1 from our landline phone while joking with a sibling, and then hung up after realizing the call had connected. We got a call back from emergency services. I explained that the call was made accidentally and everything was ok, but the operator told me that since a call to 9-1-1 was made from our address, they had to send someone out. So two nice police officers came to our door and got an apology from my child. I’m not sure if hatzola has a similar policy, but in our case, calling back would have done nothing to change the response. Another possibility is that a responder might already be on the way before you call back.
The Gemara in Shabbos 2b does not allow transgressing a Derabanan in order to spare yourself from a De’oraysa.
So, this is certainly an interesting Shaayla. When you ask a Rov about this ask about having a non-Jew calling in.
You are possibly diverting hatzola from a possible another emergency and risking lives as hatzola is driving fast to get to you. Also, you are risking that next time they’ll be hesitant to respond to your address or to a similar event. Furthermore, you are discouraging people to volunteer for hatzola. Enough reasons?
I’m not sure if hatzola has a similar policy, but in our case, calling back would have done nothing to change the response.
The police have the policy because they’re responsible for responding to all potential emergencies: illness, accidents, home invasions, domestic violence, etc. If they fail to respond to a 911 call, they could be subject to civil and criminal penalties.
I would think that Hatzalah’s scope is more limited, and they would cancel their response if informed that the call was a mistake.
Why don’t you email Rabbi Hoffman with the shaylah, he loves these types of questions
People have no issue discussing all types of issues just for fun. Why is it that whenever someone brings up a Torah type of discussion there is such pushback? Are you really afraid that the OP or visitors will turn here when it applies to them practically? Have fun, and discuss your Svaros with whatever sources you can conjure.
Although, the only actual source that came to mind implies, as I mentioned above, that you should not call back, I imagine that circumstances beg for a way to inform them not to come. So, pretty much this is a situation where Poskim would work to figure out a way.
I mentioned Amira Le’akum. But in that case you are being Mach’shil the dispatcher to pick up the phone for a non-emergency in order to stop other people from committing a worse Melachah.
On second thought, what happens every time Hatzolah puts out a call and then scales back, they don’t announce on Shabbos that they have enough members? They obviously do. But then again, Hatzolah itself has Halachos that are based on סופו משום תחילתו. Can that really apply to non-members?
Halevai agree complelty with first statment.
ITs so bizzar every narishkeit under the soun gets discussed but Torah/Hlacha al of a sudden excusesWhat do people think will happen this situation will happen agian, and he’ll look up the shailah on ywn?
as for the OP
Rav Asher Weiss has a similar question he often discuses : A first responder arrives on the scene and realizes no emergency should he call his colleagues who are on the way or haven’t left yet to prevent their driving needlessly (almost exactly your question)He says they should ie better to do a derabanan to prevent other’s deorysa.
Though others argued that for the fellows on the way isn’t chilul Shabbos at all since act is mutar (though ones)There is obviously a lot more to it, I think its written up in Minchas Asher 1
You are possibly diverting hatzola from a possible another emergency and risking lives as hatzola is driving fast to get to you. Also, you are risking that next time they’ll be hesitant to respond to your address or to a similar event. Furthermore, you are discouraging people to volunteer for hatzola. Enough reasons?
I don’t agree with any of those.
Hatzola (at least in any area I’m familiar with) has ample resources to respond to multiple emergencies.
If driving fast to respond to an emergency was considered dangerous (“risking lives”), it would never be okay.
I don’t believe Hatzola members will hesitate to respond to a future call or that peope won’t join because of an occasional false alarm.
Ubiquitin, HaLeiVi addressed that in his last paragraph.
Daas > If driving fast to respond to an emergency was considered dangerous (“risking lives”), it would never be okay.
Of course, it is. Normal vehicles are not allowed to drive the way ambulances do. It is simple math that the risk of being late for an emergency is higher than a risk of a collision.
Ubi, thanks for bringing a relevant source from R Weiss!
The question is what’s more important to you. Shabbas or inconveniencing someone. You need to ask yourself what choice can you live with, breaking shabbas and living with that. Or inconveniencing someone. As a clearly fervant religious person for you shabbas comes before all. I think the hatzlah members would understand. You tho also have to live with the understanding that _if_ you do decide to inconvenience them which it’s ok. Shabbas first, you may take them away from saving someone else’s life. Again life is full of moral _choices_. With consequences we have to live with in a pekuach nefesh situation shabbas gets put aside
I think we technlosize things too much and miss the morality of situations. What is right to do….not what are we “allowed” to do according to whoever. We are faced with moral choices everyday and we need to live with those choices what would you have done if you didn’t have anyone to ask. The consequences of those choices is also something you need to take into account when making any moral decision.
The moral thing to do is to follow the Halacha.
AAQ, I’m pretty sure you missed my point.
I didn’t get to see the Teshuva yet. In yhe meanwhile I was wondering how you can say to transgress a Derabanan to stop someone from doing a De’oraysa when we see from רדיית הפת that you can’t even save yourself from a De’oraysa. And the Gemara clearly says there that you surely cannot save someone else by doing a Derabanan.
However, I see that the Tosfos in Eiruvin differentiates between רדיית הפת where the one waning to prevent the De’oraysa is unrelated to the Issur, and the case in Eiruvin where the transgression is stems from your action.
Also the Shulchan Aruch rules that in the case of רדיית הפת you can indeed save yourself if it would turn out to be a full fledged חיוב חטאת.
Another thing to clarify is whether or not the Hatzolah members are considered to have been transgressing anything if in their mind there was an emergency, even a ספק פקוח נפש. Is this different than performing a Bris on the wrong child, where you were doing a Mitzva — in your mind — and yet Rebbi Yehoshua says it is a חיוב חטאת. Perhaps פיקוח נפש is different since the היתר applies even to ספק פיקוח נפש, and so it shouldn’t be any less of a Safek just because there is someone who knows it is not needed.
But then, if this is so, this can ruin the היתר of calling in to cancel.
This might be a case where considerations of the person are important. We allow someone who drives to a hospital to drive back – so that nobody hesitates to drive someone.
In case of hatzolah, if there are many false calls, I can imagine someone hesitating to interrupt his seudah if the calls is likely to be a mistake. It could be just for that particular apartment if they make a mistake a couple of times, or it could be for a community where there are many older people who tend to press wrong buttons.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“You are possibly diverting hatzola from a possible another emergency and risking lives as hatzola is driving fast to get to you. Also, you are risking that next time they’ll be hesitant to respond to your address or to a similar event. Furthermore, you are discouraging people to volunteer for hatzola. Enough reasons?”
As with my post about whether the policy could be to respond to any call made, even if the caller subsequently said the services were not needed, these reasons are speculative and potentially invalid. I find the contention that false calls discourage people from volunteering to be the most dubious. As far as driving fast – hatzolah’s response model is based more on their responders being in close physical proximity to the callers than blazing down boulevards from a centralized station with sirens screaming (though there’s some of that too). Also, even if you did call right back, you’re likely to not stop at least some of the response from happening – they’re gearing up and going before the call even ends! Finally, asserting that hatzolah would hesitate to respond to a call suggests an unprofessionalism in their operations that is unwarranted.
HaLeiVi,
“People have no issue discussing all types of issues just for fun. Why is it that whenever someone brings up a Torah type of discussion there is such pushback? Are you really afraid that the OP or visitors will turn here when it applies to them practically? Have fun, and discuss your Svaros with whatever sources you can conjure.”
If you’re responding to my first post – I never said not to discuss it, I even said it was a great topic. However, the OP said he wanted to hear from a posek, so I pointed out that the CR is not really the best place to achieve that. Do you disagree? As far as people coming to the CR for a psak on their own situation? Oh yes I believe that is a possibility. Have you heard of the phrase “ask Rabbi Google”?
ubiquitin,
“What do people think will happen this situation will happen agian, and he’ll look up the shailah on ywn?”
No, but someone else with the situation may Google it and get this page in the search results. Granted the Venn diagram of someone concerned with how to handle a call to hatzolah on Shabbos and someone who knows to take his shailos to a qualified posek have a ton of overlap, but 1) some shailos by their nature come with a strong taiva to land a certain way – see how quickly “morality” was brought into this discussion, and 2) I think it’s good practice in a public forum when a specific case is discussed to remind people that these discussions are theoretical/for learning and that it’s proper to “AYLOR”.
none2.0,
“The question is what’s more important to you. Shabbas or inconveniencing someone. You need to ask yourself what choice can you live with, breaking shabbas and living with that. Or inconveniencing someone.”
This is the fast track to destroying a society’s morality. As the last posuk in Shoftim says (not meaning a good thing): בַּיָּמִ֣ים הָהֵ֔ם אֵ֥ין מֶ֖לֶךְ בְּיִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל אִ֛ישׁ הַיָּשָׁ֥ר בְּעֵינָ֖יו יַעֲשֶֹֽה
Halacha must be our guide. Without it we can tie ourselves into complete pretzels and think that evil is good and good is evil.
DaasYochid,
“The moral thing to do is to follow the Halacha.”
🔥🔥🔥
Always_Ask_Questions,
“I can imagine someone hesitating to interrupt his seudah if the calls is likely to be a mistake. It could be just for that particular apartment if they make a mistake a couple of times, or it could be for a community where there are many older people who tend to press wrong buttons.”
I would think hatzolah members have times when they are “on call” and times when they are not. When they are “on call” they have awareness that they could be pulled away at any time, and can deal with that emotionally. And I continue to wonder how big of an issue false alarms really is for hatzolah. Are they against LifeAlert bracelets or similar technology?
Avram > asserting that hatzolah would hesitate to respond to a call suggests an unprofessionalism in their operations that is unwarranted.
Not suggesting that. I don’t know how often the false calls are. From the press, it seems that fake 911 calls are pretty common. If this is extremely rare, I would agree. But if this is somewhat regular, we should make sure that operators feel respected and not discouraged. In the story of Chaim Brisker suggesting to add fire on shabbos so that the doctor could see better the sick grandson, baby R Soloveitchik – people in the room hesitated, so then R Chaim did it himself. Was it really very likely that the doctor will make a mistake and not ask for more light if needed? probably, not. Same here – is it likely that someone does not join hatzolah based on one false call? probably, not. But it is part of accumulating information that affects our respect to the operators.
Red Adair, thanks a lot for taking an effort. It does look like considering answering the call meduaraita is the key here.
Thanks for posting the response.
He mentioned: “The Chazon Ish was a da’as yachid on the matter (of completing an electric circuit being a d’oraisa of boneh) .
Rav Moshe Feinstein did not agree.”I don’t think that this is clear. Rav Moshe does consider it Makka Bepatish, which is also De’oraysa. Although, it does seem from his response about hearing aids that he didn’t take this all the way.
And on the flip side, the Chazon Ish can only be applied to actually turning something on, which is akin to building. This is built upon the Chayei Adam’s considering winding a watch building, since you are making it come to life. However, most appliances these days are always on, and we are merely manipulating the circuit rather than making it come to life.
While no one would permit outright usage of electrical appliances, you can’t quite consider it Boneh — or even Makka Bepatish — anymore.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.