Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › shabbos for charedi cops
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September 15, 2011 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #599389bombmaniacParticipant
how does that work
September 15, 2011 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #809832Derech HaMelechMemberI imagine they ain’t gonna work on Saturday.
September 15, 2011 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #809833bombmaniacParticipantwell thats the thing…maybe they can because theres always the possibility of sakanas nefashos…ive wondered about it
September 15, 2011 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #809834zahavasdadParticipantActually I always wondered what would happend in an All Charedi society on Shabbos
You cant shut down everything for Shabbos
You Need people to monitor the Electrical Board for the Electric Company (There ARE people who need Electricity to Live like people on ventalators and Hospitals)
You Need people to man the 911 call center (or whatever you have instead)
You need some pharmacies to be open for emergency drug supplies
You need police , fireman and EMS workers on call
etc
September 15, 2011 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #809835TumsMemberbm: There’s no sakanas nefashos for primarily yehudim.
zd: Even in a Chareidi society (i.e. when the Beis HaMikdash was standing) there are non-Jews around who can do certain tasks that are prohibited for a Jew to do on Shabbos.
September 15, 2011 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #809836bombmaniacParticipantRIGHT
September 15, 2011 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #809837popa_bar_abbaParticipantActually I always wondered what would happend in an All Charedi society on Shabbos
We are backwards people and we want to live in the stone ages.
No! We would follow halacha.
You Need people to monitor the Electrical Board for the Electric Company (There ARE people who need Electricity to Live like people on ventalators and Hospitals)
We would follow halacha. Probably we would have neighborhood generators like in Israel.
You Need people to man the 911 call center (or whatever you have instead)
Hatzala operates on shabbos in every community. It works fine, and is perfectly muttar.
You need some pharmacies to be open for emergency drug supplies
I’m sure we could figure something out.
September 15, 2011 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #809838metrodriverMemberbm (beis medrash?; To your main topic. In a city like New York (or Ramapo), there is always the possibility to exchange shift work with someone else who’d rather have Sunday, or any other day off. In Israel, though, solving this problem could be more difficult. As a matter of fact, one of the Negative side effects of those (stupid, malicious) demonstrations against the Karta parking garage in Jerusalem was that some religious Police Officers had to come to work on Shabbos, probably with a Heter of the Police Dp’t. Rabbis, because the situation was deemed an emergency. On one of the pictures, (of the demonstration) a Charedi cop (with Payos) could be seen trying to control the demonstrators. About the other potential situations that you enumerated. They are being solved without major interruption and according to Halacha.
September 15, 2011 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #809839nishtdayngesheftParticipantI don’t understand the OP question? Only “chareidim” are concerned with chilul shabbos? By the tone of your question, it appears that you do not consider yourself chareidi. So explain to us all, does that mean that the MO do not concern themselves with chilul shabbos?
Is that what you are saying?
And What about you ZD? Does that mean that you believe being MO means that you should work in the electric company on shabbos?
September 15, 2011 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #809840zahavasdadParticipantIn Israel its the Charedim who use generators, the more modern use the normal electric grid on Shabbos.
For those who use the Normal Electric Grid there is obviously some good Heter , I havent heard any Posek who ruled those who use the grid are committing Chilul Shabbos
Somebody has to work the grid, otherwise you will have major problems
September 15, 2011 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #809841bombmaniacParticipantNO! for goodness sake! you read WAY too much into my post. i am asking because of the news story about the charedi police officers in the israeli police force. sheesh…and in the US the lines arent quite the same as they are in israel so i dont identify as charedi. i identify as chofetz chaim.
September 15, 2011 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #809842TumsMemberGoyim can work the grid.
September 15, 2011 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #809843bombmaniacParticipantits a shame that the mods deleted the first part of that post…i like being caustic and sarcastic 😀
September 15, 2011 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #809844TumsMemberbm: Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim isn’t Chareidi??
September 15, 2011 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #809845bombmaniacParticipantwell…it is but i separate the terms when it comes to the US. i usually only use charedi when im referring to israelis.
September 15, 2011 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #809846TumsMemberAnd what do you call, for example, Torah V’Daas or Beis HaTalmud alumni?
September 15, 2011 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #809847bombmaniacParticipanttake 3 guesses. my not using the term charedi for people outside EY is no indication of my opinions on their yahadus.
September 15, 2011 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #809848Derech HaMelechMemberzd:
Actually I always wondered what would happend in an All Charedi society on Shabbos
You cant shut down everything for Shabbos…
Your question brings up a similar question in a completely Modern Orthodox community:
If people are monitoring the electrical grids for the electric company-
If people are manning the 911 call center-
If people are manning the pharmacies-
If people are manning the police, fire and EMS stations-
…
Then who’s keeping Shabbos?
September 15, 2011 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #809849popa_bar_abbaParticipantSomebody has to work the grid, otherwise you will have major problems
I am taking issue with this.
Either it is allowed, or it is not. If the halacha is that Jews can work the grid, then we would do it. If the halacha is that Jews cannot work the grid, then we will not.
You seem to think that “Somebody has to work the grid, otherwise you will have major problems” will outweigh the halacha.
Of course factors of pikuach nefesh are part of halacha, but I can assure you that chillul shabbos will never be permitted just so that you can have light in your living room.
September 15, 2011 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #809850zahavasdadParticipantMaybe you miss the point, there are different levels of Pikuach Nefesh, there is direct Pikuach Nefsh, Someone is having a Heart Attack NOW , there there are people on a Ventalator who would die without it.
Then there is indirect or unintential cause of Pikuach Nefesh. Lets say there is no electricity and one day you need to call EMS and because there is no electricity you cant call EMS, BUT most times you dont need to call, but the one time you need to call, you really need to call and if you couldnt call, someone might die .
This is just food for thought.
Of course Doctors, Nurses , other vital Hospital employees would need to work.
Most people would not fit into these catagories
September 15, 2011 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #809851squeakParticipantZD, what type of pikuach nefesh is it when there is some snow on the sidewalk you use to get to shul?
September 15, 2011 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #809852zahavasdadParticipantWhen you cant walk for a week and limped for a month in pain, it was a big deal and there was more I wont post here that occured because I dont think it would pass the mods
But its all and done with, I am back to the way I was (Although some think I changed my walking)
September 15, 2011 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #809853ha ha ha haMembersqeak- your starting early with that 🙂 give it a couple of months :):)
September 15, 2011 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #809854squeakParticipantYou missed my point, whether you intended to or not. I understand and remember how emotional the issue is for you, just like this one is and the one about kashrus standards. If you can also see how emotional it is to you, then you should realize how subjective all your assertions are and have been. So how about taking a step back and admitting that these are your biased opinions, and listening a little to the knowledgeable CR folks who are toeing the halachic line.
September 15, 2011 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #809855squeakParticipantGlad tto hear you are fully recovered, BH. I hope that was without needing therapy, as you hoped.
September 15, 2011 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #809856nishtdayngesheftParticipantZD,
You say “Then there is indirect or unintential cause of Pikuach Nefesh. Lets say there is no electricity and one day you need to call EMS and because there is no electricity you cant call EMS, BUT most times you dont need to call, but the one time you need to call, you really need to call and if you couldnt call, someone might die.”
This seems to be a totally new definition of pikuach nefashos. Where did you see pikuach nefesh defined so in halacha.
You also say “When you cant walk for a week and limped for a month in pain, it was a big deal”
How does this rise to pikuach nefesh? Once you fel and were in danger that would be pikuach nefesh. But that someone should be mechallel shabbos so that you can walk outside without slipping does not appear to be an instance of pikuach nefesh. Nobody says you have to walk out side. In fact, probably you should not walk outside because you are putting yourself into a matzav of pikuach nefashos, which would be ossur.
September 15, 2011 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #809857deiyezoogerMemberAccording to halachah a soldier is alowed to carry his wappens on shaboss even without being skanas nefashos because its considerd part of his uniform.
September 15, 2011 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #809858zahavasdadParticipantNo I didnt need any therapy and I asked the person where I fell to pay my damages and they gladly did (I only asked that that pay co-pays and a few incidentals)
I will admit I can be emotional about stuff and I know people feel differently than I do on stuff here.
I will say I would rather break shabbos and get an averia so that someone does not fall or get hurt. Let hashem decide if I was right or wrong.
The food Chumras that I have I would never ask anyone to follow them (Like I dont eat Dairy Salad Dressing) and if somone served me Dairy Salad dressing either I would quietly not eat it or make sure it was a dairy meal
September 15, 2011 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #809859TumsMemberI will say I would rather break shabbos and get an averia so that someone does not fall or get hurt. Let hashem decide if I was right or wrong.
If you are wrong (which it seems you are), you get the death penalty.
September 15, 2011 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #809860squeakParticipantYou are right, Hashem is the One Who decides who is right or wrong. But it is not a secret what He wants from us, which is why its not about what you or I or “people here” think or feel, but about Halacha based on Torah. Agreed?
September 15, 2011 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #809861always runs with scissors fastParticipantBombmaniac, are you asking because you are thinking of becoming a Police Man?
I think the police are great, but its not for a yid. Dont do it.
September 15, 2011 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #809862zahavasdadParticipantAfter it happend I did check and there are definatly opinions who said it was permissable.
Also even more opinons said it was permitted to salt the ice as well and some said it was only permitted to salt the ice.
And this was even in places without an Eruv.
Hatzolah does have someone man the board 24/7 even on Shabbos and even if there are no calls coming in. Obviously that person could man the board even if no phone calls
September 15, 2011 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #809863zahavasdadParticipantRav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach once saw an old man dragging a table on Shabbos while a young man stood by and walked next to him.
He asked the young man why he stood there and watched. The young man said My father holds by the Eruv and I do not.
September 15, 2011 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #809865nishtdayngesheftParticipantZD,
“Hatzolah does have someone man the board 24/7 even on Shabbos and even if there are no calls coming in. Obviously that person could man the board even if no phone calls”
Manning the board means that they will pick up the phone IF THERE IS A CALL. When there is a call they answer because then there is a specific case of pikuach nefesh. How can you compare that to working in an electric company where you would have to be mechallel shabbos even if there was no reason to even think there is pikuach nefesh? (BTW health facilities have back up generators, they can’t rely on the lectric being immediately being restored)
September 16, 2011 1:16 am at 1:16 am #809866ItcheSrulikMemberThe EMS switchboard is a simpler shaila than the power grid because if a call comes in it immediately becomes muttar to pick up. The question is who’s running the telephone exchange? Today it’s almost entirely automated, but 30 years ago that would have been a problem in an all observant society.
Tums: HEY! I’m a Torah Vodaath alumnus…
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