Shabbos guests breaks chair WWYD

This thread should be removed at once some people will figure out who this man is mods I beg of please delete this thread

Goq, how should people know who this is? What neighborhood? Unless OP stated elsewhere where he lives.

VM – Is this before you gave him to eat or afterwards?

I’m sure he was very embarrassed by the incident. Please do not ask him to pay for the chair; you will only further embarrass him.

I just learned (daily 2 halochos of Shmiras Haloshon) that loshon hora is forbidden even without mentioning names because it’s often possible for some people to figure out who the subject is.

What a nightmare….

I’ve had guests that broke chairs due to weight….I felt sincere compassion for their shame and told both of them “the chair was broken anyway” or something to that effect.

I’ve learned to take VM’s posts with a couple of oceans’ worth of salt, but in case this helps, I fell through a chair recently (though not because of my weight- the chair had been broken… then again, I suppose they WOULD tell me that…) and it was both painful and mortifying.

If the guy didn’t offer to pay, it’s probably at least partially because he wants to get it out of his mind. Falling through a chair is embarrassing- forgive him for not wanting to dwell on it. If it was a serious financial loss then MAYBE ask nicely about it, but if you can be mochel it, I’m sure he’d appreciate it.

We are also learning Shmuras Haloshon, this is totally loshon hara, the story will get around and people will find out who it is, this is always a possibily….lets day for example your friend tells you this story she could say

“Hey, i didnt know who it was till then, but I was there!!! So funny!!! Now i know who it is…”

Or maybe my aunt told me her friends neighbor had this shabbos guest that….and Ill know….

Mods you MUST delete this! We learned in Shmuras Haloshon on friday that this thing is EXACTLY FORBIDDEN!!!!!!!

People, please. I think I know some of those halachos too. Cool it. Someone is writing that someone sat on a chair and every seems to know where, when and what. FYI everyone, there’s a big world out there, plus these things happen all the time. There are many houses on a block. There are many blocks in a neighborhood. There are many neighborhoods in a borough. There are many boroughs in a city. There are many cities in a state. There are many states in a country. And there are many countries in the world. (and there are many ..)

Same for chairs. Same for people breaking chairs.

There’s a lot more publicized here that are more pointed, and no one seems to give a hoot.

I can’t believe people actually believe this happened.

I’d say that this is probably a Choshen Mishpat she’eila (and one I’d rather not comment on). Speak to your local dayan, as to whether he is obligated to pay or not.

To my mind, however, this damage was certainly unintentional and I don’t see how he could have avoided this happening. Bava Kamma 27b says that it is not customary for a person to constantly check the path that he is walking on to make sure that he won’t damage someone else’s item that may be in the way. Therefore, if someone were to unintentionally damage someone else’s item that is in his way as he is walking, he would not have to pay for this item; the principle to be learned from this gemara is that although a person is held responsible even for unintentional damages, this is only if the damage could have been prevented if the person had exercised a little more care. Tosafos call this “Onnus K’Ein Aveidah”, unintentional damage that is similar to losing something. Just as the loss of an item can generally be prevented with a little foresight, so too for a person to be liable for damages it must be damage that could have been prevented with a little foresight. However, this is only where it is expected for people to act with caution. Since, generally, people are not cautious of what may be in their paths as they walk along, there would be no liability in such a case. Likewise, it doesn’t seem like a reasonable expectation for a person to assess the sturdiness of a chair before they sit down on it. If you offer a place for a person to sit in your home, they’d assume it’s safe and secure for them to sit there. The Nesivos and Ketzos both say that a person cannot be held liable for gramma be nezikin; i.e. a person can not be held liable in Bet Din for damage that indirectly resulted from his actions. I don’t see how this guy directly broke your bench, and it’s certainly not vadai whether this fellow broke your bench or not.

I’d suggest speaking to a dayan or a scholar learned in Choshen Mishpat.

Mods please look it up, its in the Chofetz Chaim Shmiras Haloshon book, this is spdcifically assur, I cant beleive its evdn here! What if that man is me!!! Hiding behind the UN?????

Incidentally, if you are only friends with this guy because you want to get invited to parties and siyums, it sounds like middah keneged middah, if you know what I mean.

I agree with all the above posters. It boggles the mind that someone could be so insensitive as to put out benches that are not strong enough to hold a perfectly normal guest who so happens to have big bones.

“You could have caused serious injury by having chairs that couldn’t hold the person’s weight.”

Who could know the weight limit of any given chair??? I’m not ever sure if this comment is serious or you’re trying to make a point with reverse psychology.

……….

Anyhow: Listen, If you’ve befriended this person, and you’ve partaken in the simcha, give the guy a break. It costs a lot of money to be able to throw parties. Also, are you seriously worried about the guy breaking your chairs? if so, try to meet him at his home or on neutral territory.

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For the moderators: This is a serious question that I am sincerely interested in hearing about. Please do not close this thread. Some people are big, some people are small, let’s all just be sensitive to their needs. but AVOIDING THIS ISSUE WILL NOT HELP A SINGLE PERSON LEARN. If someone is being insensitive, say why you think this the case and move on, we can all learn from this situation.

Veltz Meshugener,

The problem with learning shmiras halashon is that it turns out everything is forbidden.

From my vantage point, the L”H problem here is not that the OP mentioned that a neighbor broke one of his chairs and asked whether he should ask the neighbor to pay for the damages since he wants to remain on good terms. That type of situation happens all of the time and the question phrased that way carries no risk of embarrassing or identifying anyone.

The problem with this OP, however, is all of the personal details supplied, such as the approximate time the person moved in, the number of children he has, his social habits, and additionally some unusual and unique features of the incident that have no bearing on the question but would render it recognizable to anyone reading this thread who was there or knows this person. None of these details were needed to ask the question, so given the fact that they carry the risk of embarrassing this neighbor, they should not have been supplied. Five details that, standing alone, couldn’t identify someone specifically may very well identify that person when taken together.

If I had a vote, it would be to edit the OP to remove the details, but keep the question.

Veltz Meshugener,

This is an example of what I mean. Suppose the OP were phrased this way (everything here came from the OP except what I have italicized):

So a fellow came by my place and sat down on a chair by himself, and it broke. The chair was not weak or broken prior to this. Should I ask him to pay for it?

I am very happy to have him as a neighbor and I don’t want him to avoid coming to my house. OTOH, I will run out of chairs if this keeps up.

WWYD?

Note that details important to the question (e.g., the state of the chair before he sat) were added, and details unimportant to the question, but could identify this neighbor, were left out.

The bottom line is if I broke or ruined someone else’s property I would feel obligated to offer compensation and not wait to be approached.

It’s a B’feirush Gemara. He’s Chayav for the chair. He’s Pattur for the bench unless he was ridiculously overweight and the bench didn’t have so many others.

Wiy: it must have beeb why. You can’t be fat unless you have more intake than output

“It’s a B’feirush Gemara.”

Sam, you’re ruining the joke.

To the opening poster: You write: “He’s a good person to be friends with, because he is always throwing parties for a simcha (he has ten kids) or a siyum (his kids like to learn).”

I infer from your statement that you are a schnorrer and an exploitive pseudo-friend who chooses friends based on the material things – like simcha parties – they offer to their friends. You did not indicate how old your broken furniture was, nor how heavy your new neighbor is. If you honestly feel that he should pay for the broken furniture, you should ask yourself why he did not offer to pay you, and whether he is the kind of person who would be a real friend. But you figure he’ll make it up in simchas, and so you do not want to lose your meal ticket with him. Do him a favor – don’t pretend to be his friend.

Veltz Meshugener,

I think I’m getting what you did – very clever! It does underscore that when you provide the level of detail that you did about a person, others can figure out who it was 🙂

Forgive me for asking, but what practical good is being accomplished from this discussion? If there is a true lesson here, I have missed it.

That is what a popa feeds you. You feed a popa spinach pie. And apple pie. And pumpkin pie.

V’yesh omrim blueberry muffins.