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My friend thinks it’s shabbos every day. Even though it’s a Tuesday today he is still davening the musaf shemonah esrei!! What should I do?
Umm..what?
guess he is in a full suit & has 3 meals with challah every day & no telephone way to contact him?
if so then show him you holding your phone & people in the street driving etc…
Brings to mind a story about an obstinate Rav who got lost in a forest and miscalculated when Shabbos was.
You are allowed to keep Shabbos until Tuesday night. They say the Amshinover Rav did/does that. I doubt that you can daven Shabbos davening though. I never understood how it worked in terms of eating if you are not allowed to eat before havdala.
In Japan during the War, there was a Machlokes about how the time zone works according to halacha. So there was a machlokes regarding when Yom Kippur was, so some people fasted 2 days in a row. I don’t know what they did about davening though.
LuL,
I believe it was as follows, but I stand to be corrected. They kept the first day as full yom kippur, but the second day fasted but davened weekday davening, with tefilin and all.
Is your friend the Amshinover Rebbe?
It says in the Torah, ‘Six days you shall work.’ So how can you keep Shabbos for more than one day?
LU: The machlokes revolved around where is the halachic International date line. Many of those who were in Kobe, Japan (including most of the Mir Yeshiva) followed the Chazon Ish who paskened that Kobe was west of the dateline and therefore advised them to fast only one day.
There is still a Machlokes when Shabbos is for some places
Alaska, hawaii , Japan and a few other places are in areas where Shabbos is a doubt
“You are allowed to keep Shabbos until Tuesday night. They say the Amshinover Rav did/does that.”
I never understood tht until I heard the following: Souls in Gehinom get a reprieve for Shabbat. Their reprieve lasts until the last shul says havdalah.
“Is your friend the Amshinover Rebbe?” Why should he be my friend?
“It says in the Torah, ‘Six days you shall work.’ So how can you keep Shabbos for more than one day?”
It doesn’t mean that you have to work – it means that you can work.
That being said, this is not something that is recommended for most Yidden.
“You are allowed to keep Shabbos until Tuesday night. They say the Amshinover Rav did/does that.”
MDG: “I never understood tht until I heard the following: Souls in Gehinom get a reprieve for Shabbat. Their reprieve lasts until the last shul says havdalah.”
Good point! I hadn’t thought of that. I heard a story of some Rav who always gave a shiur at Shalashudes time and he would make sure it lasted a while for that reason. When someone from the shiur was nifter, he said that it’s a good thing he participated in the shiur since he will get less gehinnom now.
I think it’s supposed to be a good idea to keep Shabbos as late as one can for that reason.
Geordie613: Based on the psak of the Chazon Ish it was the reverse and to only fast on one day.
PLEASE BE CAREFUL WHEN TALKING ABOUT GEDOLIM.
The Amshinover Rebbe Shlit”a is a very great man, and even Reb Shloime Zalman zt”l did not say anything about his personal hanhogos when he had the opportunity.
iacisrmma,
The Yeshivas Chachmei Lublin asked the Gerrer Rebbe who reffered the shaila to Rav YM Tukaczinsky. And the Mir asked their Rosh Yeshiva, Reb Leizer Yudel who asked the Chazon Ish. They came back with differing answers as is well known, but most only fasted one day because of the pikuach nefesh aspect. A few yechidei segula fasted both days.
I never understood tht until I heard the following: Souls in Gehinom get a reprieve for Shabbat. Their reprieve lasts until the last shul says havdalah.
Shabbos basically lasts 48 hours somewhere on the globe, If you start Shabbos in New Zealand which is about 20 hours ahead of NY and end Shabbos in Hawaii which is 5 hours past NY the total time is about 48 hours
I heard that there were 2 different Rabbanim (I don’t remember who) poskening 2 different ways. Some people weren’t sure who to follow, so they followed both.
“Geordie613: Based on the psak of the Chazon Ish it was the reverse and to only fast on one day.”
What do you mean by reverse- to do Y”K davening both days and only fast one day? That doesn’t sound like it makes sense to me..
ZD: “Shabbos basically lasts 48 hours somewhere on the globe, If you start Shabbos in New Zealand which is about 20 hours ahead of NY and end Shabbos in Hawaii which is 5 hours past NY the total time is about 48 hours”
ZD – that’s a good point and I thought about that as I was posting. I think that it probably doesn’t work that way and it would have to go according to one person’s Shabbos. That is the only way that any of this makes sense.
Granted, you can still ask a lot of questions on the whole concept. Like how do you decide whose Shabbos to go by? And how does time work in Gehinnom anyhow?
My guess is that we are talking about metaphysical concepts that we can’t really understand anyhow, and there may not be answers available to all these questions. Just like we don’t understand much about anything that happens in Olam Haemes…
LU: What I meant was that the Chazon Ish paskened was to treat one day as completely weekday and the other as Yom Kippur. I will try to explain this and hope it is correct. There are 24 time zones across the globe based on the 24 longitudes. According to the accepted International Date Line it is currently Tuesday 5:30 PM in NY, Wednesday 12:30 AM in EY and Wednesday 7:30 AM in Japan. What we say is that Japan is 7 hours ahead of EY time. However, according to the Chazon Ish, the Halachic Date Line is 90 degrees East of EY. Japan is 100 degrees East of EY. Therefore, halachically Japan is 17 hours BEHIND EY time and it is actually 7:30 AM TUESDAY. If I remember correctly, Yom Kippur in 1941 was on a Thursday. Therefore, when it was Thursday in EY it was halachically still Wednesday in Japan even though by the accepted dateline it was called Thursday. When Yom Kippur started in EY, it was still weekday in Japan and Yom Kippur wouldn’t start for another 17 hours. On that day, the Mirrer Mashgiach, R’ Chatzkel Levenshtein came to shacharis with his tallis and tefillin and treated the day as a weekday and they held Yom Kippur on the following day.
My source for this is the biography of the Chazon Ish, printed by Mesorah Publications (ArtScroll).
Iacisrmma -I know the basic story, although I don’t remember the details. What I learned was that there was a machlokes regarding where the timeline is halachically. I don’t remember the different opinions, but I thought that one opinion is that the day starts in EY, but not everyone says that, so basically anyplace that is east of EY (such as Japan) is a machlokes (but again, I’m not sure about the details).
In any case, I had heard that when the Jews were in Japan, there were 2 different Gedolim who gave 2 different opinions. I guess one must have been the Chazon Ish (according to both you and Geordie) and one was Rav Tuckazinsky (according to Geordie).
So there were some people who weren’t sure what to do and they fasted on both days to be sure (since you can’t go wrong with that as long as you are healthy enough that it’s not pikuach nefesh, so you are safe according to both opinions). But it would probably be a problem halachically to say Yom Kippur davening both days, so it makes sense as Geordie said that they only davened Y”k davening one day. You can fast as a chumra, but you can’t say the wrong davening or refrain from putting on Tefillin.
LU: From what I heave read (and it certainly is not everything on the subject), most people did not fast two days and did not daven the Yom Kippur davening both days. The machlokes as to where the dateline is, is based on a gemorrah in Mesechta Rosh Hashana that discussed how Rosh Chodesh was established in the times of the Beis Hamikdosh. The Chazon ish based his psak on the Ba’al Hamoar who wrote that the dateline is 6 hours east of EY. R’ Tuckazinsky holds the dateline is at a longitude that is between Hawaii and the mainland USA. Therefore, Japan is 7 hours ahead of EY just like the International dateline. My disagreement with Geordie13 is what day they davened and fasted for Yom Kippur.
Geordie thinks they fasted both days. I agree that it probably was not everyone who fasted both days (and that may be what Geordie meant as well – he was probably just explaining what the ones who did fast 2 days did). I don’t know how many did that – it may have just been a few people and that may explain why you didn’t know about it. Oh, I see you wrote “most people didn’t fast two days”, so we don’t disagree about that.
“My disagreement with Geordie13 is what day they davened and fasted for Yom Kippur.” Thanks for explaining, and thanks for explaining the technical details of the machlokes.
Is it possible that some people kept Y”K the first day and others kept it the second since there were 2 different opinions?
LU: from what I read the local population never asked the question and therefore they always held that they were 7 hours ahead of EY and fasted the first day. Some talmidim that came from Europe were told that there was a question about the dateline and to try to get a psak. That is why the different yeshivos sent messages to EY. R’ Chaim Ozer was niftar about a year before this happened and their was no recognized ‘Godal Hador’. The Chazon Ish was still not well known. However, the Mirrer Mashgiach was told previously by R’ Chaim Ozer to follow the psak of the Chazon Ish.
How do astronauts keep Shabbos?
It’s a sheilah. I remember it being discussed once when there was a Jewish astronaut. I don’t remember the answer. I think that maybe they go according to E”Y time, but I’m not sure.
zahavasdad, why would there be a problem in Alaska and Hawaii? They’re not over the date line.
Are they east of EY? Pardon my ignorance of Geography – I only played Risk once or twice.
I know Australia is an issue. I think I even heard (but don’t quote me on this) that there may be a halachic problem with visiting there over Shabbos. If you live there, it’s different, but you are not supposed to put yourself somewhere where you will have this kind of sheilah (but again, don’t quote me on this).
(Calling travel agent to cancel trip to Mars.)
Daniell11- is this a joke? Why would you friend think it’s Shabbos every day? How old is your friend?
takahmamash
As I understand it
There are lines of longetude imaginary vertically line over the earth, they somewhat correspond with time zones (although not exactly) the starting time zone accepted by the world is Grenwich mean time which is zero longetude and that is in London. The international date line is supposed to be 180 degrees from London (Its approximatly with some zig zagging because some places wanted to be in a certain time zone like the Aleutian islands of Alaska , some are past 180 Degrees but wanted to be part of the rest of Alaska)
Some Poskim hold that London is NOT where the time zones should start, but rather Jerusalem is where it should start. If you move Greenwich mean time from London to Jerusalem which is east then the international date line moves east as well and the 180 degree point is west of Hawaii and Alaska which now it is east
Just to clarify. Only very few yechidei segula fasted two days, Some very special people. One of them was Rabbi Levy Krupenia, later Rosh Yeshivas Kamenitz in NY.
Another point I would like to clarify is who’s psak held the earlier Yom Kippur.
Thirdly, regarding Alaska and Hawaii, I think more Hawaii than Alaska. It falls between the International Dateline and the Halachic dateline according to one opinion.
Lastly, I heard a shiur from an expert in these matters, Rabbi Jeremy Stanton in Manchester. He pointed out that in all resident communities of places that fall in doubt, they keep Shabbos on the day that is Saturday in that place. So that is New Zealand, Japan, Hawaii etc. And the shaaloh is only for visitors who wish to fulfil the correct halacha. They must nevertheless not do melocho in public on the day that the locals keep as Shabbos.
What would be interesting is Samoa and Tokelau that changed to the other side of the IDL in 2011. The day after Friday 29 December 2011 became Sunday 31 December 2011. I believe Shabbos would be correctly observed there on a Sunday.
Alaska and Hawaii are in the same longetudal areas
Alaska time zone and hawaiian time zone are the same 5 hours behind NY and 10 hours behind London
Alaska spans three time zones.
The secular international date line is irrelevant; the halachic date line controls.
” He pointed out that in all resident communities of places that fall in doubt, they keep Shabbos on the day that is Saturday in that place.”
Why would it be okay to do that?
Correct, but Alaska is attached to the landmass of the American Continent. So according to most poskim follows the rest of the continent.
It is similar o the situation in Australia. Melbourne for example, is east of the halachic dateline, but Shabbos is observed on Saturday like the western parts of Australia, because you can’t have a situation where a land mass is separated by a line with regard to the onset or end of Shabbos. Tasmania is an island and separate to the rest of the continent, and therefore, would have Shabbos on Sunday.
Interestingly, Rav Moishe Sternbuch holds, that in the ocean off Melbourne Shabbos is on Sunday, and therefore one may not swim in the sea on Sunday. Rav Elyashiv holds that as far as you can stand in the water is still called land.
link removed, sorry
He needs a psycologist. They deal with people with these issues. Some people try saying Shma the entire day, or cant ut on tefilin cuz they feel they dont have a guf naki… the list goes on. So yeah, get your friend the help he needs.
maybe he just became Frum and he doesn’t know anything about davening.
Maybe this friend can help you figure out which seforim taste nice.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/do-seforim-taste-nice
Alaska is actually 5 times zones, but the most of the state is in Alaska time (GMT +10 Hours)
A small section of it is in the Pacific time zone
Moderator: I understand (somewhat).
LuL,
I suppose because when the original people settled there, they arrived by boat and possibly weren’t aware of the days or the different shitos in the rishonim. So they just kept Shabbos on Saturday like it is in most places of the settled world.
zahavasdad,
Your explanation is good, just a few points to clarify. Everyone holds that London is NOT where the time zones should start, but rather Jerusalem is where it should start. The Chazon Ish held that starting in Jerusalem and 90 degrees east follows Jerusalem. But that line goes straight through Russia, Australia and a few other countries. So in effect the dateline is the eastern coast of Russia, China, Australia etc, except where the line goes through the sea. So Japan, New Zealand, Tasmania and most South Pacific Islands up to the point of the IDL keep Shabbos on Sunday.
Rav YM Tucaczinsky holds it is 180deg east and west of Jerusalem. I’m not sure where exactly this is, but Hawaii falls in the problem zone.
It’s a fascinating subject and there is so much Torah, history and geography involved. I’ve just seen Chabad.org have a nice brief explanation of the subject which they published in 2011, when Samoa changed over. Mods, may I post a link?
LB & LuL. I remember hearing the astronauts would keep Shabbos like one would keep Shabbos at the Poles, i.e. where there are no time zones. One of the shitos is according to where they came from. So an astronaut who launched from the USA, would keep Shabbos according to the time in Cape Canaveral.
Geordie – I’m confused – if the time zone is supposed to start in Yerushalayim, why would it be 90 degrees East or 180 degrees East and West? Shouldn’t it just start in Yerushalayim period? I imagine you won’t be able to explain this to me in a post – I probably need a map with lines to have any idea what you are talking about.
Regarding the astronauts, I think I also may have seen a shita that it goes by where you came from, but I thought there was also an opinion that it goes by Eretz Yisrael. But I’m not sure.
“I suppose because when the original people settled there, they arrived by boat and possibly weren’t aware of the days or the different shitos in the rishonim. So they just kept Shabbos on Saturday like it is in most places of the settled world.”
I still find that hard to understand. I’m not saying you are wrong – I just don’t get it.
Anyhow, thanks for all of the lengthy explanations. It is fascinating!
What if they live in the Poles or areas, such as parts of Alaska, that have months of non-stop daylight or nightfall?
Geordie
“I suppose because when the original people settled there, they arrived by boat and possibly weren’t aware of the days or the different shitos in the rishonim. So they just kept Shabbos on Saturday like it is in most places of the settled world.”
Actually according to Rav tzvi PEsach Frank and Rav Isser Zalman MEltzer this is the halacha. They hold Shabbos is when that locale considers Saturday.
Ubiquitin, Correct. That’s based on the Radvaz. But, what would the halacha be then in the Samoan case, where they skipped from Friday night to Sunday morning?
Standard time zones are a relatively new idea
It used to be that noon was when the sun was at its greatest, however once railsroads came and ran on a time table, you needed standardized time to run the trains properly without causing accidents, It was the railroads that caused the creation of standardized time
It’s kind of strange how we live in such an artificial world. Whenever the clocks are changed, I always think about how strange it is that our lives are so ruled by where we choose to place the hands on the clock.
Like, hello, the time that Shabbos starts didn’t really change just because you moved the hand on your clock. And you really didn’t gain or lose an hour.
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