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How does Shabbos Zemiros go in your home? How long do you sing? Which Zemiros do you sing? Who else sings along? How loud is the singing?
How long is your Shabbos seuda?
it dpends. are those in the family with good singing voices home? are there extra guests who want to sing more? my neighbor sings more and louder than us.
One of the reasons behind zemiros, bidavka on shabbos, is to protect from milchemes gog umagog, like on of the 3 seudos on shabbos is a segulah to be protected from milchemes gog umagog.
The zemira part is the shira to Hashem, kineged the cursing and apikorsus of gog and magog, and Shabbos is one of the 3 osos, that gog and magog come against, ayin the chassidishe sefarim.
As torah learning is also called shira, Torah learning on Shabbos is also extremely important for this inyan.The more time spent on Zemiros, the less time there is for divrei Torah and shmuzzing about the coffee room..
It is a balancing act.
For everything there is a time, as Shlomo Hamelech said.
A time to eat and a time to sing. A time for divrei Torah and a time for shmoozing. A time between gefilte fish and soup, and a time between soup and the main. A time before dessert and a time after dessert. A time for family and a time for spouse. A time for guests and a time to say goodbye.
Joseph – Friday night averages between 90 minutes to 2 hours. Daytime averages slightly less as we have one less course.
RG: there is a story in one of R’ Paysach Krohn’s books about two talmidei chachmim, one who sang more with his children while the second sang less with more divrei torah. the children of the first talmid chacham stayed close to their roots while the other one’s chidren strayed and they asked him why the first was more successful in raising his children and the second responded because he sang more with his children.
iacisrmma there is also a story about a talmid chochom that sang many zemiros at the table but his children never got a geshmak for Torah, instead, they dropped out of yeshiva and became singers at concerts. He said this was because he never showed the children the beauty of divrei Torah.
“……..also a story about a talmid chochom that sang many zemiros at the table but his children never got a geshmak for Torah, instead, they dropped out of yeshiva and became singers at concerts. He said this was because he never showed the children the beauty of divrei Torah…..”
Rebbetzin– Please- You know that you don’t believe a word of it… Fake news, a 3#$ bill, a fairy tale, a Moby Dick.
Zmiros are inherently part of the Shabbos seuda, composed by great and holy people, and based on Torah psukim, Chazal, midrashim etc… Zmiros ARE Torah.. ! I have one that comes with commentaries and meforshim that can easily be discussed at the table as divrei Torah in case the baal habais has a tin ear, doesn’t like music or has a voice like a hyena…. Say a short vort on the parsha.. Who’s stopping you ? Zmiros are holy, beautiful. We see that Tehillim is full of song, shira, zimra, Lamnatzeach, Lamnatzeach… conducter, music, singing. Leviim in BH, singing playing musical instruments , beautiful, soulful. Music is avodat Hashem … Torah.. It’s Simcha, and nothing is loftier than Simcha… especially on Shabbos…. especially at the Shabbos seuda, especially with family and/or friends…
Any vort, toire’leh , meysse’leh, against it is butel u’mvutal k’afrah de’arah .I don’t know the facts but I would venture to say “he was learning at the Shabbos table” by himself, rather than sharing the beauty of his Torah with his son.
But in truth, history repeats itself.
Like the Sar HaTorah, Rav Shach ztzl, also Moshe Rabbeinu did not have sons that were learners. He taught the Torah to Ahron’s sons and THEY ere the ones that had the appreciation for it.
ZG, all fine and dandy for MEN, but women can’t join when there are orchim, so other than a sideline spectator, zemeros are not a participating activity for me, while divrei Torah remain an open season, to indulge, participate and wallow in delight.
ZG, guess you never heard of דברי תורה משמחים את הלב, שנ’ תהלים יט פקודי ה’ ישרים משמחי לב, that is true simcha! (Hence, the halacha that one cannot learn as an Ovel or on Tisha B’Av – yet an Ovel may sing zemiros – ut that is from the Halacha part of Torah, which you never appreciated, and I don’t know a zemer that makes this point).
Too bad you denigrate Torah by saying compared to zemiros, Torah is c”v “butel u’mvutal k’afrah de’arah”, (like dust on the earth! mods – you allowed that?!), Nebech on you!!
אשרינו מה טוב חלקנו, ומה נעים גורלנו, ומה יפה ירושתנו
אשרינו מה טוב חלקנו that we are Yidden.
ומה נעים גורלנו that we are frum Yidden,
ומה יפה ירושתנו, that we are bnei Torah which is our Morosha K’hilas Yaakov.טַעֲמוּ וּרְאוּ כִּי טוֹב ה, taste it and you will see that iTorah is good and sweet.
There was this yid that was brought up with beautiful zemiros every shabbos, when he grew older, he completely left yiddishkeit, but still each and every shabbos he would drive to the chassidic shteibel to listen to his beloved zemiros. If only he would have had Torah to keep him pure.
If you have music in your life — then your kids will may like singing. My kids never liked zemirot per se — but they liked singing songs. So we sang the songs they wanted to sing. I always felt blessed that my kids wanted (for the most part) to actually stay at the Shabbas/t table. I found sometimes that if i prepared a bit (a story, an article) and it sounded like a didnt prepare — it helped. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence because there are so many variables that come into play.
The Baba Sali was known to ONLY sing during Seuda Shlishit. No Divrei Torah. Just singing.
“…..Too bad you denigrate Torah by saying compared to zemiros, Torah is c”v ….”
Rebbetzin, Rebbetzin, Rebbetzin..
You KNOW I didn’t mean that. Re-read my post again. If you don’t appreciate music as also a way to express avodas Hashem, that’s your call. The zmiros weren’t composed by CR folk like you and me, so you go ahead and knock it on your own.“….. zemeros are not a participating activity for me, while divrei Torah remain an open season, to indulge, participate and wallow in delight…..”
Fine, your call. I delight, indulge and wallow in song, love every bit of it and feel as connected to Torah as you. As you yourself wrote; Time to sing , time to learn… and may I add… Time to discuss it in the CR when both of us should be learning…. or singing,..
“……There was this yid that was brought up with beautiful zemiros every shabbos, when he grew older, he completely left yiddishkeit, but still each and every shabbos he would drive to the chassidic shteibel to listen to his beloved zemiros. If only he would have had Torah to keep him pure….”
So there were ( and are still ) Yidden who listened to deep pilpulim in Poland and Lithuania and became mechallelei Shabbos , joined the Haskalah , but always loved to learn gemarah on Shabbos while smoking cigarettes w/o a kippah. Too many today are not even opening the gemarrah at all anymore and going off, so your story doesn’t prove a thing.
Anyway, I’m not going to do a back -and-forth with you , but let you continue to entertain us if you wish.
You’re the life of the party, in case you didn’t already know. Have a wonderful day, and a better tomorrow.
Oh…. How many tunes does anybody know for Menucha V’Simcha?? I know 5… Tra-la-la-la-Dear Ziongate,
Zmiros as part of the meal is recent. Originally composed around 1000 years ago, they were used in shul, or at home AFTER the meal. The kabbakists composed some for before they ate.
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