December 20, 2013 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #611625smartstarMember
Hi , Does Anybody Know Of Some Good Shadchanim Who Deal With Boys That Work, In Brooklyn ,If U Know Of Someone Good Please Put their name and numbers , thanks alot .December 22, 2013 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #995635
How do you define a “Good” shadchan?December 22, 2013 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #995636
I hope you’re not suggesting that it’s an oxymoron.December 22, 2013 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #995637
I’m actually curious what people mean by “good” shadchan.December 22, 2013 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #995638
In my opinion, someone who has a knack for putting the right matches together, and for working with them so that they give it a fair chance.
As a whole, I would say it’s judged by success rate.December 22, 2013 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #995639popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I’m actually curious what people mean by “working” boy.December 22, 2013 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #995640
I don’t think it is about success rate, I think it is randomness of the match. I remember being 20 and going to NY to date. I only dated out of towners and said explicitly that I would not consider living in NY. The shadchan fixed me up with a 25 year old who had a prestigious job in Manhattan and owned a condo on the upper west side.December 22, 2013 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #995641
Randomness of the match should lead to a low success rate.December 22, 2013 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #995642
Popa, probably someone like the guy your son ate the Shabbos seudah by, only single.December 22, 2013 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #995643
maybe, but i wouldn’t hesitate to use a non-random shadchan with a low success rate because he is only responsible for the pairing, Hashem decides the rest.December 22, 2013 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #995644popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Popa, probably someone like the guy your son ate the Shabbos seudah by, only single.
That guy was a learning boy. He was in yeshiva while he dated, and then got an apartment by the yeshiva, and then started working only after sheva brachos.
You think I would let my son eat by a working boy??December 22, 2013 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #995645
I said he was single.
Also, you didn’t let your son eat there.December 23, 2013 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #995646
Well, back when I was dating, a working boy meant anything from “not learning or doing anything right now” to “learning now but thinks he’d be willing to work someday” to “in school for a bachelors and not sure what he wants to do afterwards” to “has a plan for parnassa and is almost there” to “has a plan for parnassa and is doing it”.
I only considered the last two “working boys”.December 23, 2013 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #995647
The best shadchan for a productive member of society is either JWed or SYAS.December 23, 2013 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #995648apushatayidParticipant
A shadchan dealing with “boys” is a pointless profession and a waste of your time since he must also know girls to actualize any shidduch. Go to a shadchan who knows both.December 23, 2013 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #995649
Really, T613? I would have taken you for someone who wanted at least a few years in Kollel.
Rd, the implication of your post is apikorsus.December 23, 2013 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #995650
DY: Which implication? I find several. (I don’t know if any are actually Apikorsus, but they are certainly not Jewish ways of thinking.)December 23, 2013 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #995651
Sam, that people who are learning but not working are ch”v not productive members of society.December 23, 2013 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #995652
DY: Right. So that’s stupid, but I don’t know if it’s Apikorsus. He can rely on the Rambam for that.December 23, 2013 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #995653
The Ramba”m (which, as you know, we don’t pasken like) was talking about throwing oneself on the tzibur which is not today’s typical Kollel man, certainly not in the first few years of marriage. (I said that so Gavra won’t yell at me about tuition breaks.)
Also, the Ramba”m never negated the productivity of such a person.
So no, one can’t use the Ramba”m to avoid being called an apikorus by the famous gemara in Sanhedrin.December 23, 2013 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #995654gavra_at_workParticipant
(I said that so Gavra won’t yell at me about tuition breaks.)
And so I will not. I actually agree with you here. If the couple is being supported by the Shver, that is the Shver’s problem (or delight, as he can leverage that into the couple living near him and get Nachas from the grandchildren), not the Klal’s. As such the Ramabam would not apply.
To be Melamed Zechus, it is difficult to say that a kollel boy who is being supported so that he can “start his life in learning” and is just “putting in time” is considered to be “Rabbanan” (As in “Ma Ahanu”).December 23, 2013 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #995655
To be Melamed Zechus, it is difficult to say that a kollel boy who is being supported so that he can “start his life in learning” and is just “putting in time” is considered to be “Rabbanan”
You’re being very generous, and I hope you’re right, but the implication was that *anyone* not working is not a productive member of society.December 23, 2013 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #995656LevAryehMember
Working boys don’t deserve to get married.December 24, 2013 3:26 am at 3:26 am #995657
LAB, I take it you’re single.
😉December 24, 2013 8:10 am at 8:10 am #995658LevAryehMember
Ha! Yes. And a former working boy myself.December 24, 2013 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #995659
well it seems like working girls don’t deserve to get married eitherDecember 24, 2013 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #995660
Rebdoniel: I love how people think the more to the right one is, the less open minded they are. thanks for proving that wrongDecember 24, 2013 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #995661
live right – So what exactly do most girls do if they don’t get married straight out of sem? Stop being so pessimistic. Just because your husband is taking a long time to get to you doesn’t mean he’s never coming…
What irks me the most about the whole shidduch scene today is that boys who were considered at-risk can just fly off to Israel for a few years and then come home at 23 and have a ton of girls lined up for him to choose from. He’s such a malach, look where he is now, who cares about his past…As opposed to a girl who was troubled as a teen, no matter how many “Israel trips” she’s taken there is still something seriously wrong with her and people can’t look past that.December 24, 2013 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #995662
Streekgeek, there’s a lot of truth in what you’re saying, but you should know that I’ve seen people get quite insulted when a shidduch is suggested for their daughter with a boy who’s had a rocky past.December 24, 2013 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #995663
people get quite insulted when a shidduch is suggested for their daughter with a boy who’s had a rocky past.
Parents get insulted over almost every shidduch suggested because to them their child is the perfect one, so why should they settle for anything less than perfect?December 24, 2013 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #995664YW Moderator-127Moderator
Excellent point, streekgeek.December 24, 2013 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #995665
Right-wing means authoritarian, dogmatic, fundamentalist. I don’t see your tayna.
And, DY, who’s we? I happen to pasken like the Rambam on this issue, and many others, as well.December 24, 2013 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #995666
Wow 127 – to think I would ever get to the point of getting a compliment from you…December 24, 2013 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #995667
streekgeek: not being pessimistic. cynical, maybe. joking, definitely.
im sorry if it wasn’t appreciated. not everyone likes my one-liners.December 25, 2013 12:09 am at 12:09 am #995668
so if you want to marry a guy who learns for 3-5 years and then gets a job, but you end up single til 27 and he has already finished those years, does he have to start over again?December 25, 2013 12:23 am at 12:23 am #995669
I’m fairly liberal on a lot of things myself, but it really bothers me when people think being “fundamentalist” is a bad thing (in all contexts). All religions are dogmatic and fundamentalist. Judaism is a religion. When you remove the dogma and fundamentalism, you have killed the religion. Deal with it.
And, of course, the great rebdoniel has the authority to Pasken by whatever Rishon he wants on whatever issue, even if that opinion has been roundly rejected by all the Poskim between then and now. It makes sense, after all. That is the Halachic process at Machon Hadar. Find a Shittah that says what you like (or something close to it) and say that that’s the Halachah. That’s how Ethan Tucker justified counting women for a Minyan. He had 1 Mareh Makom supporting him (he dug up a Mor Uktziah) and ignored everyone else. So rd is just doing the same as his Rebbe.December 25, 2013 2:04 am at 2:04 am #995670
And, DY, who’s we? I happen to pasken like the Rambam on this issue, and many others, as well.
See Kessef Mishnah. Also see what Igros Moshe says about someone who decides to “pasken” like the Ramba”m on this.
Also, as I pointed out, even according to the Ramba”m, what you said is apikorsus.December 25, 2013 2:26 am at 2:26 am #995671
I beg to differ, DY. Labor has an important place in Judaism, and those who abscond the duty to work make a chillul hashem.December 25, 2013 2:44 am at 2:44 am #995672
I brought sources and reasoning, and you merely restated your opinion.
Your inability to separate your own viewpoint from that of the Torah does not make full time learning a chillul Hashem.
You are not smarter, more reasoned, or better informed than the Kessef Mishneh or Igros Moshe. Humility has an important place in Judaism.
Not spouting what the Gemara calls apikorsus also has an important place in Judaism.December 25, 2013 2:56 am at 2:56 am #995673
I don’t have the time to give you the laundry list right now.
A person who doesn’t pull his weight in this world and takes from others doesn’t have much respect in my eyes.December 25, 2013 3:00 am at 3:00 am #995674rabbiofberlinParticipant
Well, against my better judgment,I will add my two cents in this matter. I support rebdoniel in this- Daas Yochid- you throw around the word “apikorsus” very easily. According to you , virtually all of the previous generations were ‘apikorsim” because the vast majority went to work and did not stay in kollel at all.It is clear from the “kessef mishneh” (that you quote) that he has to virtually apologize to the Rambam for not following his Psak. And, please note, he does not invalidate the Rambam at all- all he says is that rabbonim have the right to receive their money for their work. That is a very far cry from what is being promoted today in yeshivos- something that goers against every mishne, gemoro and Poskim,not mentioninf the ketubbah.December 25, 2013 3:04 am at 3:04 am #995675147Participant
Shadchanim for Working Boys
Am I missing something? or misunderstanding something? By definition, for every boy who gets married, 1 girl gets married:- Hence a Shadchan has to work 50/50 for boys & 50/50 for girls.
I am being Don smartstar leChaf Zechus, therefore I doubt smartstar is even considering same gender marriage Chas v’Sholom, consequently, I simply am at a loss to comprehend the title of this topic?December 25, 2013 4:21 am at 4:21 am #995676
Rebdoniel: being a “productive member of society” means something different to everyone. if you understand it to mean going out to work as a dr, lawyer, accountant, businessman etc and getting a paycheck, thats jolly well good. but this world is a give and take world and not everyone can give in the same way and not everyone can take in the same way.
this may be how you are a productive member of society.
but you need to understand that other people see it to mean joining the army and fighting for their country and what they believe in.
and yet others understand it to mean sitting for hours learning Torah.
every person who believes being productive to mean one of the above understands what he is doing to be supportive to the world in some way. and you cannot deny that any one of the above three are not important to the sustainment of the world.
and if you do deny the third to be true, then I cannot help you my friend.December 25, 2013 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #995677
DY: I could hear the Tayna that nowadays we are heading back to a place where the Rambam’s S’vara applies to the average person. The Kessef Mishnah meant it mostly for Rabbonim, not entire communities. But there are proper ways to state such a thing and a necessary level of knowledge before one can present such a S’vara. rd has neither.December 25, 2013 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #995678
There’s no need to hurl ad hominem insults and attacks, Sam. The law is as Rambam writes it, as far as I’m concerned.
And ROB has an incredible amount of knowledge on this inyan, so I appreciate his support.December 25, 2013 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #995679
Sam, I don’t think it’s for you or me either, but I don’t deny that it’s something to be considered by those with the tools to do so.
That’s a very far cry from calling those solely involved in learning unproductive members of society.
What you bring up doesn’t even belong in the discussion.December 25, 2013 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #995680
rd: As far as I’m concerned, [remainder of sentence redacted]. Please explain what right you have to pick and choose your Rishonim. What right do you have to even write the sentence, “The law is as [anyone] writes it, as far as I’m concerned”?December 25, 2013 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #995681
ROB, I do not throw around the term apikorsus lightly. I used it precisely as the gemara does.
What you wrote, although I disagree with it as well, had nothing to do with my response to rd’s apikorsusdik comment. You created a straw man.
And your bringing up the kesubah again is absolutely nonsensical. The kesuba is a financial document, and if she is mocheles on his financial obligations, it’s a non issue.December 25, 2013 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #995682
so if you want to marry a guy who learns for 3-5 years and then gets a job, but you end up single til 27 and he has already finished those years, does he have to start over again?December 25, 2013 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #995683
you seem to have too much time on your hands, are you off today?
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