Shadchanus Gelt

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  • #598285

    Cutie
    Member

    Whats the average amount nowadays?

    #1141660

    bpt
    Participant

    Her side = 10% of the ring or $500, whichever is greater.

    His side =

    Depends:

    * Working boy? A flat $500

    * Full time kollel? 20% of the the kallah’s estimated yearly earnings or $1,000 whichever is greater.

    #1141661

    In my opinion it should be about $2,500 per side. That’s what my mother, an almanah paid for the last shidduch and that was 31 years ago! We paid various amounts as each shadchan had a different price but if i remember correctly the least was $3,000 and the shadchan was appalled. He said he asks that amount because people bargain, my husband answered a shidduch is not a bargain and paid him in full. No we had average weddings with one man bands, no shmorg, no vienese tables. We did what the other side felt comfortable with and were fine with it. B”H the children are still able to learn without headaches! So don’t look to cut corners on the shadchan fee.

    #1141662

    Ofcourse
    Member

    I’ll risk getting attacked here, but the “going rate” has been $1,000 per side, MINIMUM, for years already.

    I want all to know that since I got drastically less than that for a Shidduch from wealthy people on both sides, Im somewhat less inspired to work as hard as before. Most of my get up and go, my verve and inspiration, got up and went.

    To all those who might look down at me for that, each one of you: Do it for less, sweeties!!!! Only those who do it around the clock for less than $1,000 per side (from people who can well afford it- it was like pulling teeth), should dare criticize!

    I want to mention that from BT’s or people who arent obviously well off, I’ve accepted next to nothing, graciously!!!!

    #1141663

    I am not saying that the shadchan doesn’t deserve lots of money, but I sure am glad that the Rav who made my son’s shidduch knew he would get nothing from me and graciously took whatever my son and his Kallah’s family gave him! To be honest, I didn’t ask him to find someone for my son, and I would never have paid $1,000 for that! I already had to get money from every possible tzedakah in order to buy or pay for EVERYTHING that I paid for to make the wedding, including my own $50 shaitel and dress!

    #1141664

    cshapiro
    Member

    what or how much do you give if three people were sorta involved in suggesting it but none were actively involved..??

    #1141665

    bpmum
    Participant

    u have those that ask 10k i as a shadchan dont have never had a rate whatever one can give is amazing bh! if a shadchan is not happy it is a hekpeida on the couple therefore i am happy with wether its 50 1000 or 5000

    #1141666

    Ofcourse
    Member

    bpmum, if a shadchan is not happy it is a hekpeida on the couple therefore i am happy with wether its 50 1000 or 5000

    Thats why Im easing out of this. Seeing pics of a luxurious weding, just made me feel cheated. I think I would have gotten a tablecloth or similar, had I not spoken up.

    #1141667

    oomis
    Participant

    I am appalled to hear that someone would ask for $2,500 from an almana three decades ago! Are we not enjoined by the Torah to protect widows and orphans?

    #1141668

    aries2756
    Participant

    I never used a professional shadchan so nothing monetary was expected, and we gave a silver gift each time.

    #1141669

    AZ
    Participant

    With all due respect to aries. This is a straigtforward halacha question -see rama Choshen Mishpat 185:10 and chochmas shlomo 185;1) Generally speaking, anyone (proffesional or non proffesional) who redds a shidduch and the couple gets engaged is OWED compensation no different that a person who preforms any other service. The rate of compensation will depend on the custom of the places where they live.

    Feedback from shadchanim indicate that customary shadchanus is between 1,000-1,500 each side. This is not set in stone. Families that are very well off typically pay more (and this would be a halacha shayla as to whether this would create a actual obligation to do so). I think in out of town communities the rate is a bit lower.

    If a shadchan is known to have a set “fee” that is different than the standard rate, then by using them one is reeing to their fee. If a is not known to have a set fee, then that shadchan can not ask/expect more than the going rate. (what is the thresshold for having a known fee, i don’t know, but i do believe it is quite rare for shadchanim to have set fees. The fast majority (and all that i know of) do not have any set fees.

    In a situation where it is clear that familes can’t afford the standard rate a shayla should be asked as to whether there is assumed mechila on a portion of shadchanus owed)

    If a person (shadchan) explicitly states they are doing it free of charge then of course nothng is owed them (and the shadchan can’t change their mind afterwards).

    For some reason there is a belief on the street that compensation to a shadchan is a nice/touching thing to do etc. What we need to realize is that it is a 100% bonafide monetary obligation that (in thoery) a bais din can enforce.

    Generally speaking, Shadchanim who don’t receive the standard shadchanus (or anything for that matter) typically turn the other cheek and – though they are not happy – they realize there isn’t much they can do.

    #1141670

    Chein
    Member

    How can anyone determine “the customary rate” when bpt says it is $500 maximum (per side) and AZ says it is $1,000 minimum (per side)? Clearly there is a disagreement over what even is the “customary rate”!

    #1141671

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    We didn’t give any shadchanus gelt to anyone when I became engaged.

    On the occasions that I arranged shiduchim, I did not want to accept any shadchanus (but did accept a small gift when the couples insisted).

    The Wolf

    #1141672

    AZ
    Participant

    Chein:

    I think it’s obvious BPT was being facetious. Either way it is incumbent upon the parties to do their research based on their community friends etc. That’s what halacha dictates for all such situations regarding proper compensation to a service provider. There is no doubt that it varies from community to community.

    #1141673

    Chein
    Member

    We didn’t give any shadchanus gelt to anyone when I became engaged.

    Why not?

    #1141674

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We didn’t give any shadchanus gelt to anyone when I became engaged.

    Hmm… I wonder why not? 😉

    On the occasions that I arranged shiduchim, I did not want to accept any shadchanus (but did accept a small gift when the couples insisted).

    If the shadchan intended to do it pro bono, there is no obligation.

    From this week’s Business Halacha newsletter: http://www.businesshalacha.com/sites/default/files/web-file-manager/files/email-files/Business-Weekly-5771-Masei.pdf

    By Rabbi Meir Orlian

    Halacha Writer for the Business Halacha Institute

    #1141675

    Ofcourse
    Member

    bpt,

    Her side = 10% of the ring or $500, whichever is greater.

    His side = Depends:

    * Working boy? A flat $500

    * Full time kollel? 20% of the the kallah’s estimated yearly earnings or $1,000 whichever is greater.

    Ive never heard ridiculous figures like that in my life. Hes not serious! Or, Im starting to think bpt, isnt a b oro p ark t atty after all. No way!!! Ive been living in BP for almost half a century and these figures arent bp figures!!! The wealthy give more, the not wealthy give less, but only the very hard up or BT’s/Gerim give below $1,000, because they dont have parents paying for them.

    #1141676

    spiral
    Participant

    When my first child got engaged I asked several people what the going rate was in my circles. Iwas told $1,000. That was over 20 years ago. That’s what I paid for a couple of years to each of our shadchanim. Lately I’ve been giving $1,500.

    Someone told me she gave the shadchan $1,000 2 years ago and the shadchan was not happy.

    By one of my children the shidduch didn’t work out. After 6 months the other side asked someone else to try it again. This time it worked. I asked a Dayan what to do. He said if the second shadchan thought or the shidduch on his own, he gets the fee. If not, (which was the case here)the first shadchan gets 1/3 and the second one gets 2/3. That would have been $350 and $650. We gave the second one $650, and the first one $500.

    #1141677

    haifagirl
    Participant

    I know I posted this before in another thread, but I know from my friends who have children the customary fee, at least among that group of people, is $1000 per side.

    A friend of mine who hangs with a different group told me she and her machatunim agreed to give the shadchan “more than the usual fee” because they knew she wasn’t well off. They each gave $900 so the total would be chai.

    #1141678

    aries2756
    Participant

    Well! In my circles it has always been a gift, that is what has been customary. And believe me we give beautiful gifts and no one complained. For our first two shadchanim we bought beautiful silver vases. For the last shadchan I found a beautiful silver tea service that we split with the mechutanim. Again, the shadchan (only one) was very surprised and happy.

    All three shadchanim would have felt awkward to receive a cash gift from us. When spouting your facts please be aware that not every situation is exactly as YOU KNOW IT TO BE. Not everything is according to YOUR perspective or your point of view. Other people also know what they are doing and how to handle their own situations. And others are NOT wrong for doing it their way.

    #1141679

    AZ
    Participant

    Aries:

    Halacha Dictates that each community is governed by it’s custom. If that’s the going rate then that’s the going rate. What i was pointing out is there is no general basis to differentiate between a proffesional or non proffesional (unless their is a specific local custom as such).

    #1141680

    MichaelC
    Member

    I heard in a shiur, Shadchanus gelt is very important

    #1141681

    Chein
    Member

    In our circles I also believe we give an expensive gift (rather than money) to the shadchan.

    #1141682

    aries2756
    Participant

    My daughter’s Kallah teacher told her that it is very important to pay the shadchan before walking down to the Chupah.

    #1141683

    kako
    Participant

    DaasYochid: Thank you for posting. Very informative. However, I am a little confused by the following sentence.

    So, if my very good friend the handyman comes to my home for whatever reason (pick up his son, borrow a bike, etc) and when he sees something wrong with the faucet he fixes it without me asking or even realizing it, I have an obligation to pay him?

    If the homeless in the street trhows water at my windshield while I am stop at the traffic light, Am I obligated to pay him?

    Where is the line?

    #1141684

    kako
    Participant

    One more point. Yes, the halacha is that you have to pay to the shadchan, but why $1500 per side? Doesn’t $3,000 for just mentioning a name or making a couple of phone calls seem like an outrageous amount? To me that’s way too much.

    #1141685

    Chein
    Member

    So clearly whee there is no custom to pay the Rama rules it is not obligatory to pay and a present is sufficient.

    I believe that in New York non-professional (i.e. family/friends/etc) is not customary to pay and a gift is common instead.

    #1141686

    AZ
    Participant

    Chein: I don’t know where in NY you live, but in the chassidishe and yeshiva/livtvishe style communites cash is certainly a very common (if not the most common and most expected) form of compensation. (i think in a situation where the shadchan is a comfortable individual many ppl may choose to by a very nice gift e.g. a expensive piece of jewelery for a lady in lieu of cash). Either way this is a serious monetary halacha shayla and should be dealt with as such.

    In the more modern communinties (especially where a lot of dating is not even done via shadchan) or done via vehicles such as SYAS i think token gifts may be more common, but i am not sure.

    Why not ask around friends and family as well as 30 different ppl who are involved in shidduchim and report back.

    #1141687

    AZ
    Participant

    Kako: you have to pay what halacha dictates not what you feel is the proper amount. Same for all halahic brokers/service provides. You know a plumber came and fixed my drain. Standard rates for his work are 100 but i don’t think he deserves it. I mean he only spent 10 minutes on the sink. I think i’ll give him $30 instead. $150 is outrageos for 15 minutes don’t you think? Well that’s just to bad and to not pay his fee would be a issur doraisa of “oseik schar sachir”

    For situations where one person gives the name (and gets yesses from both sides), and then someone else serves as the go between, (this is common where the suggestion comes from a family memeber or friend and they would like to have someone more experienced take over, then i believe the halacha is that the “suggester” has the halachic status of a “maschil” receives 1/3 of the customary shadchanus and the person who took over receives 2/3.

    If someone has a idea for a shidduch but isn’t succesful in getting yesses from both sides then there is strong room to think they don’t have the status of a shadchan at all (of course ask a shayla). If one person gets the yes from one side and one person gets the yes from the other side then it would seem they should share the 1/3. Of course all these and similar scenarios should be presented to a rov to pasken.

    #1141688

    kako
    Participant

    AZ: I am not questioning the halacha that you should pay the going rate, I am questioning the going rate. This is something that is kind of established and accepted by people and I am saying it is not “in-synch” with the effort that is needed to become a provider of that service (education, certification, experience) or the effort made during the particular job.

    #1141689

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Kako: you have to pay what halacha dictates not what you feel is the proper amount. Same for all halahic brokers/service provides.

    Another sin on my part. When I didn’t want to take shadchanus from the couples I matched, I apparently violated lifnei iver. Perhaps that’s why one of them later divorced.

    The Wolf

    #1141690

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Why not?

    Because we did not have a human shadchan.

    The Wolf

    #1141691

    minyan gal
    Member

    kako: if you go to the doctor for a sliver and he charges you 50.00 – it isn’t just for taking out the sliver. You are paying him for his experience, his education and his good judgement. The same with the plumber and the electrician. You pay not just for the time, but for the wear and tear on his car and equipment and his training. Why is it any different for the shadchan. In one case, a few phone calls may result in a wonderful marriage, but in another it may take weeks of work to get the same result. You are paying for experience and judgement. The rates probably vary in different areas and with different groups.

    #1141692

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    kako,

    You’re not taking into account all of the work that goes into shadchanus, often hours upon hours. Also, since a shadchan does not pay for a shidduch which does not end in marriage (or engagement, depending on the community), the compensation for a successful one may be higher than for other services with a different system (e.g. a defense lawyer who gets paid even if his client is convicted) or success rate (e.g. a plumber who is able to properly fix the problem 99% of the time).

    #1141693

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Another sin on my part.

    I respectfully disagree. If your intention was to do it as merely a favor, there is no financial obligation.

    #1141694

    Chein
    Member

    Also, since a shadchan does not pay for a shidduch which does not end in marriage (or engagement, depending on the community), the compensation for a successful one may be higher than for other services with a different system (e.g. a defense lawyer who gets paid even if his client is convicted) or success rate (e.g. a plumber who is able to properly fix the problem 99% of the time).

    Using that criteria it would seem a better comparison to a shadchan would be a real estate broker or life insurance salesman, who also can put in a lot of work and gets no compensation if the potential customers doesn’t buy.

    #1141695

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I did not compare a shadchan to a defense lawyer or plumber, I contrasted. A shadchan is indeed a type of broker.

    #1141696

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I respectfully disagree. If your intention was to do it as merely a favor, there is no financial obligation.

    Chein seems to disagree with you. He said:

    you have to pay what halacha dictates not what you feel is the proper amount. Same for all halahic brokers/service provides.

    My understanding of his statement is that even if I feel that zero is the proper amount, I’m still required to charge the amount halacha dictates.

    The Wolf

    #1141697

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Wolf,

    I don’t think I am in disagreement with Chein. He is correct that what must be paid is dictated by halacha, not personal feeling. If the shadchan did not perform the service with intent to charge, then halacha dictates that there is no obligation.

    When you do a photography job pro bono, are you doing anything wrong by not charging? No! It’s the same with shadchanus.

    Besides, Chein was referring to what must be paid, and you’re talking about what must be charged.

    #1141698

    AZ
    Participant

    Chein: You are free to question the going rate however that doesn’t change the halachic obligation on the recipient of the service to pay the going rate. If you would like to discuss whethere the going rate is reasonable perhaps that’s for another thread but whatever is the going rate then that is what is owed the shadchan.

    Wolf: As i’m sure you well know you anyone deserving of being paid for a service is free to be moichel what is rightfully coming to them.

    #1141699

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    When you do a photography job pro bono, are you doing anything wrong by not charging? No! It’s the same with shadchanus.

    That’s a bad analogy as there is no halachic requirement to pay for a photography job. According to Chein, it seems that there is a mandatory fee dictated by halacha. Since I did not want to charge that, I was wrong and sinned.

    Besides, Chein was referring to what must be paid, and you’re talking about what must be charged.

    Well, if I refuse payment, then it’s a violation of “lifnei iver” since I’m preventing them from paying the halachically mandated amount.

    The Wolf

    #1141700

    Hacham
    Member

    How does one assess what the “going rate” is? Even in Brooklyn alone the Sefardim and the Chasidim and the Yeshivsish communities will all have very different scales. And even within any one of those groups there will be a very wide range.

    #1141701

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf: As i’m sure you well know you anyone deserving of being paid for a service is free to be moichel what is rightfully coming to them.

    Even if that’s universally true (which I’m not ready to concede is the case), that doesn’t change the fact that posters here have made the case that shadchanus money is important and that not giving it can adversely affect the marriage. As such, I suppose that I am (at least partly) responsible for the divorce of my friend* because of my refusal to accept shadchanus. Causing a divorce, I’m certain, is a grave sin.

    The Wolf

    * Although they did get three kids out of the marriage, so it wasn’t a total loss.

    #1141702

    AZ
    Participant

    Hacham: Great question. Ask a competent rov to answer that question. My hope in this thread is to establish that the question of how much is owed to a shadhan is a halacha question and requires a competent authority to answer, no less than a question regarding kashrus in the kitchen.

    #1141703

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m not ready to concede is the case

    Mechila is a basic principle in Choshen Mishpat matters. Why would you not concede this?

    posters here have made the case that shadchanus money is important and that not giving it can adversely affect the marriage.

    I haven’t seen the case made for this, even when the shadchan is mochel. Maybe I missed it.

    #1141704

    bpt
    Participant

    “I think it’s obvious BPT was being facetious”

    “Hes not serious”

    Not kidding, and am very serious. Its time we as a community start linking rewards / compensation to the extent of the product that is delivered.

    No young couple should have a “pricetag” greater than $1500. They have yet to prove themselves, and should be treated as such.

    And since it was mentioned, IMHO the scale of gifts / weddings need also be scaled back, as a young couple does not deserve the launch package that exceeds the kallahs annual salary. In most cases, the chosson has no salary to speak of, so anything he gets, should be greeted with humilty and gratitude.

    Best bocher? Yeah, him and 10,000 others just like him.

    Proof is in the results. By rewarding kids with such bounty that is not linked to any reality sets the stage for a warped sense of entitlement.

    And as far as living in BP or not, lets put it this way: When I first moved in to BP, men worked after the wedding, and your reward was a result of your efforts. Not a result of “what the market will bear”, or how much you can extort from your in-laws.

    So I’m not trying to change things; I’m trying to getback to where we were before the mess we currently have on our hands.

    #1141705

    modchebp
    Member

    I truly believe that being a shadchan is a job that is not shown enough hakoras hatov.Being a shadchan when i started 8 month ago,i was putting in 3 hours a day .Today i am putting in 12 hours a day.My main job that i was doing was not making me enough of a parnasah and i had to think of other ways.Being very good in dealing with people i B”H was zoche to make a number of shiduchim.I would like to make this a full time job,and to be able to meet all my clients and to return all phone calls which untill now i have been able to.The only way that i can do this is by having an income coming in.I propose certain things and i would like to hear from you if you agree with me.I would like to charge $100 for receiving resume together with first meeting of client.I would request for every date that they go out $200 which means $100 from each side.How much to charge for the shidduch is very hard to say,but it should be a minimum of $25oo -$5000 per side if they can afford it.I am trying to run it like a buisness where i can give my time and experience and give kovod to the families the right way .I have done over 30 shiduchim and believe me it is alot of work.ofcourse it is also a great feeling and a zechus ,but you cant pay bills with a great feeling.Please respond with your opinion. Thanks

    #1141706

    Hacham
    Member

    $10,000 per shidduch after charging $200 per date after charging $100 to look at the resume?

    Can I be your partner?

    #1141707

    modchebp
    Member

    To hacham The $200 GETS DEDUCTED FROM THE TOTAL I AM NOT SAYING THE AMOUNT HAS TO BE $5OOO ,BUT UP TILL $5OOO.TRY MAKING A SHIDDUCH AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND

    #1141708

    bpt
    Participant

    “you cant pay bills with a great feeling. Please respond with your opinion”

    In my opinion, this should not be a “job” it should be something you do for people you know. And the truth is, if you’re only acting as a broker between 2 parties you don’t know, you should charge (and they should pay) as much as the market will support.

    Just don’t call me. I / my wife will not have spent the last 40+ years of putting down roots and playing it straight to have to resort to relying on a broker, nor will my kids have spent the last 20+ years being good kids to be at the mercy of a warped system. If after all the work we have put into getting where we are, the only calls I get are from proffessional power brokers, then I / my kids have failed. So charging $$$$ to set us up with some unsuspecting mechutonim, without knowing anything about us is wrong and misleading.

    OTOH, if you know us, and know the other side, and both are straight-forward people to work with, the shadchan’s efforts are minimal, so mega bucks is uncalled for.

    But regardless of the work involved, please keep in mind, we are talking about kids whose potential may be great, but still nowhere near proven. Why should they command a price tag like that?

    I may not be able to change the system, but I sure don’t need to abide by it.

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