June 16, 2016 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #1155550
But the gedolei haposkim disagree.
Which ??? ?????June 16, 2016 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1155551
Rav Yitzchak Schmelkes of Lemberg.
Rav Moshe paskened it prohibited to put an air conditioner on a timer for Shabbos. Do you follow that? Rav Moshe also writes in the Igros other poskim may disagree with him (speaking generally). Can no one follow other poskim when Rav Moshe disagrees? The issue of copying doesn’t have a strong consensus among all the gedolei poskim.June 16, 2016 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #1155552
The majority of poskim asser copying, but the majority are mattir A/C.
What about handshaking?June 16, 2016 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1155553
Clearly the vast majority of gedolei poskim assur handshaking. In fact, Rav Moshe himself says you should not rely on a heter for this that was given by rov long ago in America. But I don’t agree with your majority assessment on copying. Additionally, following a legitimate minority psak on a contemporary issue is certainly legitimate.June 16, 2016 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #1155554
I don’t it’s any clearer than copying.
What’s clear is your negiyus.June 16, 2016 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #1155555
I have no more negiyus than anyone else in the world. (It happens to be I listen to very little music and haven’t copied any IP products in, at least, well over a decade.)June 16, 2016 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #1155556
The why the twisted logic? Lots of stuff you’d have to pay for from previous decades?June 16, 2016 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1155557
You’re simply being dismissive of legitimate piskei halacha that you don’t agree with and illegitimately dismiss such piskei halacha as having negiyus. I specifically know I haven’t copied in at least that long. If I copied decades ago it was as a child and it was extremely infrequent. It was also, if it occurred, grounded in legitimate piskei halacha. Certainly a young child without money wouldn’t have purchased (hasagas gvul) if it weren’t copied.
BTW, US fair use law, at least until fairly recently, permitted personal non-commercial copying of music tapes that weren’t redistributed. In fact, there was (and may still be) a tax on every blank CD purchased that is given to the music industry under the basis that there will be legitimate copying for personal use of music by the general public, which is (or was until recently) permitted by law – and that fee is the compensation for the industry.June 16, 2016 10:52 pm at 10:52 pm #1155558
I’m not dismissing those piskei halachah, I’m dismissing your trumpeting them. Especially as you dismiss legitimate piskei halachah on handshaking.
The only legal copying is for the one who purchased an original.
According to all opinions, unauthorized downloads and copying are assur for one reason or another (at least in the US). The only shailah is why.
OTOH, handshaking is a machlokes muttar assur (or even yv”y).June 16, 2016 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #1155559
No, it was legal to make personal non-commercial single copies of tapes even without purchase. Hence the tax/fee, by law, built into the price of every blank tape and CD that legally was given to the music industry.
And I’m not trumpeting them. For the most part I only brought up these halachic points when the conversation was about this topic. And, as noted, I haven’t utilized these piskei halacha. How do you reconcile being dismissive of the piskei halacha that permit copying, that you disagree with? And whilst you finally, but grudgingly, characterize that it is “assur for one reason or another”, what the reason is makes a difference as to when it is assur, according to which reason a specific posek holds as the basis (which differs in numerous ways between poskim.) And unlike your assertion otherwise, I heard from one of the (Litvish) American gedolei poskim of today that copying isn’t an issur other than, when applicable, hasagas gvul.
And which piskei halacha can you now cite approving of handshaking?June 16, 2016 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #1155560
From House Report No. 102-873(I), September 17, 1992: “In the case of home taping, the [Section 1008] exemption protects all noncommercial copying by consumers of digital and analog musical recordings” .
[i.e. non-computer/standalone CD burners] and 3% for media [i.e. blank CDs]
So according to the poskim who use dina d’malchusa as a halachic basis for this issue, the above would be permitted. (This is current U.S. law.)June 16, 2016 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1155561mik5ParticipantJune 17, 2016 12:16 am at 12:16 am #1155562
From legalzoom: (one of many sources saying the same thing)
Copying music, even copyrighted music, is not always illegal. Federal copyright laws allow one who purchases a song to copy the song for his own personal use. For instance, you can copy an album in order to have one copy at home, and one copy in your car. However, this does not mean you can copy a song and give it to a family member or friend.June 17, 2016 12:37 am at 12:37 am #1155563
That’s one guy’s opinion versus the law as set in the aforementioned statue passed by the United States Congress.June 17, 2016 12:54 am at 12:54 am #1155564
I guess you missed: (one of many sources saying the same thing)June 17, 2016 1:42 am at 1:42 am #1155565
Joseph: R’ Schachter has said (I doubt it’s in print, but I’m sure it’s on yutorah somewhere) that if she’s not attractive, it’s Muttar (but if she is, it’s Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor).June 17, 2016 2:09 am at 2:09 am #1155566
Dina D’malchusa doesn’t care what websites say; it only cares what the legal statue passed by the legislature states. I provided that above. Try to research how many people were prosecuted for noncommercial copying tapes and CDs, something that happens hundreds of times every single day throughout the United States, since the enactment of the aforementioned 1992 law permitting exactly that. And see how many fingers (or lack thereof) you need to keep track of prosecutions for this over the last quarter of a century throughout the 50 States.
The law explicitly states that the tax on blank CDs is in return for the legalization of the permitting of all noncommercial copying.June 17, 2016 2:33 am at 2:33 am #1155567
Sam, that’s the p’sak I follow. It’s frequently awkward explaining to a woman why I’m willing to shake her hand, but that’s the price we pay for following halachah.
Joseph, that is your interpretation of the statute, but that’s not what most legal experts (online or otherwise) say.June 17, 2016 2:37 am at 2:37 am #1155568
There’s not much to interpret. The law I cited is very explicit in stating exactly what I described.
Read the actual statue.June 17, 2016 2:41 am at 2:41 am #1155569
I’ll leave it to the legal experts, who say it’s illegal.
You need to know the background, historical and legal, to know how to read and interpret. What you think is explicit is not.June 17, 2016 2:48 am at 2:48 am #1155570
DY, the olam here missed your comment…June 17, 2016 2:50 am at 2:50 am #1155571
DY: It actually once came up for me in a business setting. The woman asked why I shook her hand when other Orthodox Jews don’t. I said that some do and some don’t and it often depends on the situation, but many don’t shake at all. (I thought of saying that if there is a large age disparity it’s okay, as she appeared to be at least 40 years older than me, but I thought better of that.)June 17, 2016 2:54 am at 2:54 am #1155572
Really, Sam? Wouldn’t it have made more sense to just have a policy not to shake anyone’s (female) hand?
If a woman puts out her hand to me, I tell her that the only women I’ll touch are my mother, sisters, wife, and daughters.June 17, 2016 3:06 am at 3:06 am #1155573
Why would you touch your sister?June 17, 2016 3:20 am at 3:20 am #1155574
To help her cross the street.June 17, 2016 3:32 am at 3:32 am #1155575
To be serious for a change..
If the Mishnah says ??? ?????? ?????? ??? because of what the Gemarah explains, shouldn’t it apply here, all the more so?!? Do the ones here off the hand making light of the seriousness of these issurim take FULL RESPONSIBILITY of the chance someone out there might choose to act… Someone earlier wisely choose to keep his psak private… I would think others should do the same..June 17, 2016 4:09 am at 4:09 am #1155576
LF: Yeah, and the Gemara (see Rashi there) says that that is talking about those types of Arayos (like Bito Mei’Anusaso) that might not have an obvious Issur.
DY: Yeah, it would be a better policy. But I get very nervous while on the spot and she stuck her hand out and then I hesitated then she gave a weird look and I really didn’t know what to do. But I knew that it wasn’t Assur so I decided just to shake her hand.June 17, 2016 5:02 am at 5:02 am #1155577Avi KParticipant
DY, what if she does not want to cross?June 17, 2016 6:44 am at 6:44 am #1155578
Yeah… and look at the other Rishonim and mefarshim who say it’s because ???? ?? ??? ?????? and they’ll grab at anything to legalize, permit…
I have written ????? ?? ???, something worth taking note.. You don’t need this extra load on your shoulders.. “look, here’s this guy on Yeshiva World, obviously a yodea sefer, who claims it’s OK to touch women (and professes he actually did it)… so I can go ahead and…June 17, 2016 11:46 am at 11:46 am #1155579
In response to your last comment to me (and I realize the discussion has moved on) – I have no objection to someone bringing up a general public Psak for discussion. I do have an issue with your Yenta-ish trying to figure out what Psak I personally received – whether by bringing a public Psak from the Posek I asked or any other method.
I repeat what I’ve stated previously in this thread – I received a Psak from Rav Belsky when I was starting to interview for jobs. I spoke to him in detail about it then, and then again later in my career when relevant. He may have been machmir, he may have been meikil, he may have been machmir in some circumstances and meikil in others – IT DOESN’T MATTER. It was a personal Psak, and I’ll keep it that way.
As to Moshe Dovid Leibovits’s writings on Rav Belsky’s Psak – my only point was that while these are interesting and can be useful, one should be aware that often, not all details of the circumstances or the Psak are brought, and one should therefore ask an individual She’ela. That is the only point, and I think one even a provocateur/Yenta like yourself should understand and agree with.
A Gut Shabbos to all,
an Israeli YidJune 17, 2016 11:53 am at 11:53 am #1155580
LF – there are clearly a number of respected Poskim who allow shaking hands in a business setting, as well as a number who do not. If one is asked why they do/don’t shake hands when Moshe Cohen, an Orthodox Jew, does the opposite, the best thing to say is that there are different authorities and views, and he follows a different view. It’s not a big deal, and I’ve never had an issue using this reason in a number of contexts (including explaining why Chasidim don’t shave, while other Orthodox Jews do).
As to what to say when not shaking hands – one thing I heard many years ago is that one who does not shake a woman’s hand should say “I’m sorry, but for religious reasons, my wife doesn’t shake hands with men, and I don’t shake hands with women”. By phrasing it that way, you hopefully avoid insult by making it clear that the issue is not that you consider women unclean or beneath you – the restriction cuts both ways.
an Israeli YidJune 17, 2016 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #1155581
Avi K, it depends if she needs to get to the other side.June 17, 2016 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1155582
LF: No, the Gemara says that, and it’s still only qualified to “Sisrei Arayos”. Arayos that are clear are things that mistakes on wouldn’t be legitimate. I was very clear here with what R’ Schachter said. If she’s attractive, it’s Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.June 17, 2016 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1155583
OK, so I guess we’ll have to use DY’s line (to dissect.. for those who obviously didn’t chap) “the Rabbi said I can shake your hand. You’re unattractive”
Let me just relate a story I read in Rav Moshe’s Haggadah:
A man was to have an interview regarding a position for employment. It was during sefira, he asked Rav Moshe ztz”l if he could be lenient and shave because it was apparently unkempt, unbecoming etc. Reb Moshe could not permit it, he gave a bracha that regardless, even without shaving, he should have hatzlacha. (Yeah, I know others here will complain he’s overstepping… Dass Torah…!!! but that’s the story)
At the last moment this individual caved in and shaved to make his appearance becoming. He had his interview and all seemed well. Then this non-Jew asked him why he shaved when he’d interviewed other Jews and noticed they didn’t shave. He had a hard time explaining. At the end the boss told him if he’s so ready to do away with his standards, convictions, ideals, who’s to say he’d be trustworthy enough working for him. Rejected. <End of Story>
Moral of the story. Everyone can tell, even non-Jews, when one is ‘bending’ it a bit. And it doesn’t do too much kavod. When one stand up to one’s convictions, moral standards, he/she is admired and held in esteem.June 17, 2016 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #1155584Avram in MDParticipant
one thing I heard many years ago is that one who does not shake a woman’s hand should say “I’m sorry, but for religious reasons, my wife doesn’t shake hands with men, and I don’t shake hands with women”. By phrasing it that way, you hopefully avoid insult by making it clear that the issue is not that you consider women unclean or beneath you – the restriction cuts both ways.
This is an extremely good point to think about when navigating this issue. I wonder what a good phrase would be for someone who isn’t married.June 17, 2016 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #1155585
LF: Don’t you love stories about Poskim that are against Shittos that they wrote in their Teshuvos?June 18, 2016 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1155586
Avram in MD – Perhaps replace “wife” with “mother” or “sisters”? It’s not quite the same, but I don’t claim to have a perfect answer in all circumstances. Anyone else have any suggestions?
an Israeli Yid
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