Shalom Bayis and Being M’vattar

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Shalom Bayis and Being M’vattar

Viewing 19 posts - 1 through 19 (of 19 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #2537927
    LuckyStrike
    Participant

    Hi,

    I have a few sources from which it can be inferred that in a husband/wife disagreement being m’vattar isn’t always the correct approach. Sometimes, the husband for example, has to put his foot down as it were. For instance, when Avrohum Avinu told Sarah that she did indeed laugh and that it was inappropriate. My question is, does anyone know of a source that says this openly/clearly with regards to a husband and wife and when is it applied? To me it seems to be in cases where it is truth vs shalom. In those cases the truth should prevail.

    #2538155
    @fakenews
    Participant

    You are crazy!
    Go apologize to your wife and seek counseling.

    The gemara specifically says the opposite of what you are trying to conjure up over here.

    #2538167
    ujm
    Participant

    The Shulchan Aruch explicitly rules a husband must prevent his wife from acting non-tznius. That’s but one of many explicit examples in Halacha. The same obligations applies regarding a father to his children.

    #2538169
    The little I know
    Participant

    LS:

    Several corrections. Avraham never said, “No, you laughed.”. It was Hashem. Second, to be mevatter is not about emes-sheker. Third, Chazal tell us that the occasional untruth to preserve shalom bayis is acceptable. It is recognized that this is a double edged sword. Either one must do it or may not. This requires guidance.

    #2538195

    I presume it is a joke, but if you look for the source, it is probably quran.

    #2538247
    rescue
    Participant

    “Being kind when toughness is required is considered foolish because unclear or overly lenient behavior often enables negative outcomes rather than fostering genuine well-being. Without the necessary boundaries or accountability, kindness can devolve into self-neglect, exploitation, or the reinforcement of harmful behaviors

    Erosion of Self-Respect and Boundaries
    Kindness becomes foolish when it is offered at the expense of your own well-being or values. Constantly saying “yes” to requests that disrupt your life or tolerating repeated mistreatment to be “the bigger person” leads to burnout, resentment, and a sense of being undervalued. True kindness requires discernment and boundaries; without them, it is not an act of strength but a form of self-sacrifice that signals a lack of self-worth to others”

    If you show your wife you lack self worth she will stop respecting you and if she stops respecting you, she will also instinctively know she can manipulate you and push your buttons which she will do because she is very intuitive. Men let themsleves get stepped all over all the time because they think being nice and kind is smart. You need to be honest and have good boundaries otherwise you will become a doormat

    #2538246
    rescue
    Participant

    Fake news I hope your joking.
    Being mevater is a very foolish thing to do especially when you need to in certain instances, stand your ground. You don’t want to be a doormat. And woman aren’t the kindest when they know that your not going to be leaving them any time soon.

    #2538636
    @fakenews
    Participant

    Rescue: You seem to be listening to too much Andrew Tate type of garbage.

    None of what you wrote here is helpful towards creating a healthy marriage, much less a warm, loving environment.

    Not being mevater isn’t the main factor here, having a solid relationship is. And considering that OP came to bunch of internet randos looking for some sort of Torah based affirmation that he should ignore his wife’s interests, we can reasonably deduce that his marriage is probably on the rocks. And giving OP a bit of tough love to help him get out of his own way will undoubtedly help a lot more than any male supremacy BS from Tate.

    #2538662
    HaKatan
    Participant

    @The little I know:
    וַתְּכַחֵ֨שׁ שָׂרָ֧ה ׀ לֵאמֹ֛ר לֹ֥א צָחַ֖קְתִּי כִּ֣י ׀ יָרֵ֑אָה וַיֹּ֥אמֶֽר ׀ לֹ֖א כִּ֥י צָחָֽקְתְּ׃

    The Bechor Shor states explicitly that the latter statement there was spoken by Avraham, as @LuckyStrike noted.

    #2538775

    I suggest excellent books by R Pliskin, especially one called “Marriage”. For some here, this is an urgent request (assuming you are married).

    And note that Avraham did not have the last laugh here, so to speak – later on, he gets explicit instructions: “listen to her”

    #2538776

    Is bechor shor an only opinion on this issue or are there others? see how the attitude of pushing your own position while hiding the others moves from politics to drush…

    #2538780
    LuckyStrike
    Participant

    >>And considering that OP came to bunch of internet randos looking for some sort of Torah based affirmation

    This is a forum comprised of many who spent time in yeshiva. I am simply looking for a source. Would you prefer I stick my head and the sand and make believe it can’t possibly exist?

    >>that he should ignore his wife’s interests,

    How do you “deduce” because I want to know if a source exist for a given mode of behavior means I want to ignore my wife? Maybe I am the wife? How do you know if I am even married?

    >>we can reasonably deduce that his marriage is probably on the rocks.

    You dont’ know what you are talking about

    >>And giving OP a bit of tough love to help him get out of his own way will undoubtedly help a lot more than any male supremacy BS from Tate.

    Your “tough love” is nonsense and has only accomplished that you are the one who feels supremacy and you can pat yourself on the back.

    #2538784
    rescue
    Participant

    @fakenews I would agree with what your saying but I see nuance that you do not. op asked this question looking for textual context. Which means he struggling but feels guilty to do what he knows is right for himself but feels he must do cuz he was tought to be “mevater” his whole life. He’s struggling with his mind and his heart.
    Ideleoligy versus reality. Always being good can translate very quickly into being taken advantage of.
    for too long men have been and have allowed themsleves to be doormats. And in many circumstances if you want woman especially your wife to respect you, you have to stand your ground.
    I would agree with you fake news if woman were the better gender but they are not.
    Remember in the garden of Eden when eve convinced Adam to eat it and Adam ate.
    That parable is a window into the nature of both men and woman
    Woman are by nature, cunning. Intuitive, and they can spot weakness like the plague.
    The second they spot weakness, especially in a close relationship, they will automatically disrespect you.
    The best you can do is _know who you are_
    _respect yourself_
    And don’t let anyone including your wife step all over you

    #2539153

    rescue> you have to stand your ground.

    Gemora recommends being an arova rather than a ceder tree – if you “stand tall and stand your ground”, you are at a risk of being broken eventually. Arova survives the wind. Look at books of R Pliskin and R Twersky for a lot of good practical advice on this.

    #2539322
    LuckyStrike
    Participant

    You missed the point of my question. Again, even if we’ll say that being an arova is the preferred hanhagga do any seforim speak out clearly that there are exceptions to the rule like we seem to find by Avrohum and Sarah and by Dovid when he responded to Michel bas Shaul’s criticisms?

    #2539668
    rescue
    Participant

    Those examples should be enough for you lol. They are embodiment of human relationship and concepts and should help guide you while you are confronted with complex situations. Also you should trust your own judgment. As your conscience is in tune with what _you_ need. That means you’ll know when you need to stand up for yourself. Someone outside yourself can’t tell you unless they hear the circumstances.
    Cus every situation is different. It really depends. But if your confused about a certain situation ask your mentor or someone you trust that has good judgment but most of all, judge for yourself. You’ll know when you should and shouldn’t

    #2539673
    rescue
    Participant

    Don’t get confused by ideologies which is beliefs systems that are disconnected from truth and from reality. You cannot fit ideologies into real life circumstances as it doesn’t fit. Be human. Be normal. Sometimes you can believe “always be mevater” but what happens when the other person isn’t playing fair. Theill take advantage of you. That’s not w mitzva that’s delusional thinking. And disconnected morals. Morals have to fit with reality. Yes you should learn from the relationships in the Torah that should help give you a window into how humans are supposed to act and how real humans act in a multitude of scanarios. But you still need to filter that into your specific and unique life circumstances

    #2539813

    Lucky, I understand that you are not interested in various things moeforshim say on the pasuk but in the specific sugya of how to relate to your spouse. It is a great question and many mitzvos are involved here and many conditions for various actions. I posted ^ two authors that wrote books about this, so you may want to read those and then tell us what you found.

    On a superficial level, such questions raises eyebrows. We had here a lady who was asking whether it is allowed to patch a kid sometimes. A nice question, but she was zeroing on it a lot. When people starting asking her, it sounded like she was abused by her parents and she was not now applying same technique to her own children and was asking group for approval of her “minor patches”.

    #2540235
    50minusONE
    Participant

    Oh my goodness! If this had the option to give a like or thumbs up I’d give your comment one.!!!

    I burst out laughing from glee

Viewing 19 posts - 1 through 19 (of 19 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.