February 6, 2011 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #740294smartcookieMember
I am not advocating anything, nor making any judgments. I am simply adding up the sum of the previous posts.
Sorry pops, you don’t know your addition.February 6, 2011 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #740295popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Sorry pops, you don’t know your addition.
Perhaps not. But being bad at math is not very culpable.February 6, 2011 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #740296
“Many of us now-single mothers had to become strong and unafraid IN ORDER TO RUN OUR HOMES AND TAKE CARE OF OUR CHILDREN ON OUR OWN.Do not jump to the totally WRONG conclusion that this new-found strength IS WHAT SCARED THE POOR LITTLE HUSBANDS.
You could not be further from the truth!”
There is nothing wrong with women standing up on their own to stop themselves from being abused. This is in the case of real abuse. There are a lot cases were the abuse isn’t real -were friends of the woman convince the woman that she is abused. If you don’t get your way every single time, then you’re abused. They can be doing this for years until the woman sees it as the “truth”. They can now take this empowerment and go off the derech and take the kids with them. The women’s lib movement was a lot about women’s empowerment -this isn’t always the way of Hashem. I think the women who cry wolf about abuse, is because a lot were brought up as JAP’s. They think “Alas Koompt Oonez”!February 6, 2011 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #740297
Health,did you read my poem called Mechitzah?
On that thread,I clearly rule out throwing all your marriage issues out there as if EVERYTHING IS UP FOR DISCUSSION with ANYONE.In other words,I agree with you.February 6, 2011 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #740298
Sorry, I’m not really into poetry or those long winded rhymes.
Maybe it’s because my ex is a writer or it’s just not my speed. Did I perhaps talk too much about my marriage?February 6, 2011 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #740299ShrekMember
I do not think women “cry wolf” about abuse. In my experience (with friends who are divorced), most women try very hard to make their marriages work. They stay and suffer for YEARS in the hope that things will improve, or for the sake of their children, or to avoid stigmatizing the family. It’s not easy to be divorced in frum society, and when families break up there is usually a good reason for it.February 6, 2011 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #740300
Health–You? No!You said your ex talked a lot to others and you feel they convinced her she was being abused.So I am saying–talking to friends about EVERYTHING is not okay.
But I know zilch about your situation…and am not judging it.
Hey…did you say my poems are long-winded??February 7, 2011 2:38 am at 2:38 am #740301
Shrek – Your experience – isn’t. There are plenty who are abused, there are plenty who try to work things out. There are also plenty who are spoiled and cry wolf to get sympathy from anyone they can. It’s very sad when the woman just wants out of the mariage and they will say and do anything to get there. They don’t even care what’s best for the children. I’m also sure there are men like this.February 7, 2011 2:46 am at 2:46 am #740302
I can vouch that ple will do anything to destroy the other side,kids being trampled in the process notwithstanding.February 7, 2011 2:49 am at 2:49 am #740303
eclipse -Any of those poems or rhymes are long-winded to Me! They probably aren’t to others who like that sort of thing.
I agree talking about everything and anything to friends is wrong.
But I don’t even blame my ex for talking, she comes from a frei, broken home. I blame her friends who misled her. 1 Letzonus can bring down 100 Tochachos! Letzonus doesn’t mean Joke -it means making light of something. Making light of me, my family, etc…February 7, 2011 3:05 am at 3:05 am #740304
Health,I act like my story is over.It isn’t,I’ve just learned how to deal with it as best as I can.If I look at photo albums of kids who were unfairly taken from me…I can’t–so I don’t.I’m turning the pages of this book called My Life,and the BIG PICTURE IMPROVES MORE AND MORE EACH DAY.Really,soooo much has gotten better in the last few years.On the other hand,CERTAIN THINGS CAN’T GET BETTER,BECAUSE THE TIME IS GONE,AND WITH IT,SHARED MEMORIES THAT COULD HAVE BEEN.I concentrate on the “here and now” because there is enough good to make the pain of the not-good BEARABLE,and I still lead a relatively happy life,b”h.
What your ex did has not enhanced your life,and has distanced you from some/all of your children too.
But I do believe that whether my personal avodas hashem will be as a single person or not—THE BEST IS YET TO COME.I believe that,and it keeps me going.February 7, 2011 3:13 am at 3:13 am #740305
1dayatatime, I will agree with you that in “some” cases that might be true, but please don’t be so naive. In addition, if a person has an addiction or an illness they have the CHOICE to fee the addiction or seek help. PLEASE THINK ABOUT THAT!!! That is called responsibility and accountability. Do not accept unacceptable behavior and make excuses for it.February 7, 2011 3:19 am at 3:19 am #740306
thank you Aries!February 7, 2011 3:22 am at 3:22 am #740307
eclipse – “What your ex did has not enhanced your life,and has distanced you from All of your children too.”
The one frum child I have is also distanced from me due to her belittlement of me during our married years.
“Health,I act like my story is over”
Noone who is divorced thinks this, but a lot of non-divorced people think you can put it all behind you.
“If I look at photo albums of kids who were unfairly taken from me…I can’t–so I don’t”
She took 90% of the pictures. I’m still waiting for my half. I’ll probably have to take her to court for this also. I want the option of not looking at them if I don’t feel like it and vice-versa.February 7, 2011 3:37 am at 3:37 am #740308
I believe that anyone who is NOT in this situation should forgive their children for all the nonsense they did today and give them a huge hug and kiss good night. Count your blessings!February 7, 2011 3:39 am at 3:39 am #740309
It’s called P.A.S.(Parental Alienation Syndrome)and I must say that anyone who causes one parent to be totally despised by the very child h/she once cradled with deep affection….will have to account for it.It’s NOT A HEFKER VELT.February 7, 2011 3:44 am at 3:44 am #740310
Eclipse, no its not! Hashem is the ultimate score keeper.February 7, 2011 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #740311
So I’ve been checking out this thread with interest and finally decided to share. I am your pretty typical BY graduate, went to what is considered the top seminary in E”Y, and went on to marry a ben torah who would be going to college for the purpose of eventually making a parnossah. (My parents were unable to “support”, nor would I have wanted them to.) Eventually, after 2 years (and 2 children), that time came and my husband
B”H found a good job. My husband is a really special person; kind, giving, honest, well-liked, hard working, etc. We have a very good relationship, always looking out for each other. Sounds great, no?
Yes. And no. After 5 years of being married, I found out that my husband has an addiction. A bad one. All along, I had this niggling feeling that all was not right, but I couldn’t place my finger on it, nor did I dream what it could be. Baruch Hashem, I was given the strength to deal with this (though it’s often very, very hard knowing my husband could have done these things) and my husband has agreed to seek help. But he’s done this for so long (since before we were married) that yes, when he sees other women, he does wonder why I don’t dress like that. It does bother him that I’m no longer skinny. How could it not?
My point is, I’ve learned a lot from my situation. Some of the things I’ve learned:
A- Yes, it is a man’s job to guard his eyes. But the women also have to be careful to dress in a way that doesn’t cause a man who mistakenly looks to look again.
B- Also, there are men out there who will look, whether it’s because they are bad or because they have an addiction. Why do you (the women) have to make things worse for their marriage?
C- An addiction does not always start as a real choice. For example, in my husband’s case, he heard some kids talking in high school and out of curiosity went to the internet to check things out. From there, it was all over.
D- If you have internet in your home – a mediocre filter will NOT do the trick. Make sure you know what every child (and adult) is doing online. This is crucial to prevent viewing things mistakenly which could cause major issues.
Just as an aside, a relative of my husband’s is very good with computers and does everything on the computer (business, learning, etc.) When I mentioned that if I could, I would throw the computer out of my house due to the waste of time that it causes, (and due to my husband’s addiction – but I wasn’t about to tell him that…) he very strongly disagreed. Sometimes I wonder – if he would only know, would he still respond in the same way?!? He admires my husband so much; if he would know what he was really doing, what would he think then?!?
May Hashem grant us all the strength to do the right thing. Sorry for this long post. I hope it shed some light on the matter.February 7, 2011 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #740312
to really smile
It looks like your working your program really well, keep it up and good luck
IT GETS BETTER
Always remember: It’s just “one day at a time”February 7, 2011 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #740313
I doubt if i’m the naive oneFebruary 7, 2011 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #740314
to really smile –
All people have nisyonos, some have it with one thing, some have it with another. Everybody has to work on themselves. Do I think someone who looks at bad things is worse than someone who speaks LH all day? NO! But in our generation a lot of people believe the only evil is Internet, TV, movies, etc.February 7, 2011 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #740315
My ex also had/s a similar addiction and I tolerated EVEN that,against my will.But EVERY SINGLE RAV’S advice pointed to ME being at fault somehow!
“Are you thin?” I was!
“Are you ALWAYS accessible?”(Excuse me?)
“Do you ALWAYS talk to him nicely?”
“Could it be he’s out LEARNING IN A DIFFERENT BAIS MEDRASH SOMEWHERE,because YOU make it so stressful for him?”February 7, 2011 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #740317
1 day at a time: thanks for the encouragement. you sound like u talk from experience. but what does tfs stand for?
health: ur right, BUT internet IS doubly bad because if used in the wrong way, it can affect everything else. for example, because my husband looked at these things, he felt horribly about himself and it held him back from learning and growing spiritually. until he stood up to it and admitted to me he had a problem, he was spiraling downward in a lot of ways…February 7, 2011 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #740318NotABochurAnymoreParticipant
to really smile – When a man looks at another woman, it is not necessarily (and I would say it usually is not) because of addiction. Men are built like that. That’s why min HaTorah, you can marry more than one girl. Please use the word addiction carefully. There are ppl with real addictions out there and some who just have a normal yetzer hara.February 7, 2011 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #740319
eclipse – sorry if I’m being slow – what point are you trying to make? and what did they fault you for – his addiction or the lack of shalom bayis?February 7, 2011 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #740320
Nice to hear that there is still some woman out there who’s not afraid to accept responsiblility for her part in the Tznius situation….
To the rest of you – Why are some women so afraid to dress Tznius’dig outside? Once you’re home, you can go ahead and dress up like Miss America (and you should, for your husband)!February 7, 2011 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #740321
bachur24 – I know that many men look at other women not because of an addiction and that it’s a normal yetzer hara. you obviously didn’t read my entire post. do i need to spell out what kind of computer addiction he has?!? and yes, my husband is an addict – he told me himself…February 7, 2011 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #740322
They fault you for everything.If they don’t fault you,they defend him.
Me:My husband raises his fist at me when we disagree.
Rav:Did he actually hit you?
Me:No,but it’s pretty scary!
Rav:Well,THIS IS THE WAY A MAN GETS ANGRY.The main thing is he didn’t HIT you.
Me:He twisted my wrist.It’s still red.
Rav:Aha…What did you say that made him so upset?
Me:I saw the recorder he’s always taping me on in his pocket,and tried to take it.
Rav:Aha….February 7, 2011 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #740323
When you are numb instead of outraged…February 7, 2011 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #740324
Enough blaming all women for not dressing up for their husbands!
I always did,and it’s adding insult to injury to accuse otherwise!!February 7, 2011 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #740325
One more point for those of you who keep saying that “men shouldn’t look”-you are 100% right. Men shouldn’t look.
But they are human beings, and that is why the halachos of Tznius in dress for women were put into place.
Because when hormones and heritage are in conflict, guess who wins?
Both genders have their work cut out for them. Let’s not give any of ’em more credit or criticism than they deserve.February 7, 2011 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #740326
And then people wonder why you’re left with a million complexes by the time they’ve all chewed you and spat you out.
Lovely day today,:)February 7, 2011 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #740327
eclipse – I’m so sorry you had that experience. But again – what point are you trying to make?February 7, 2011 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #740328
If your last post is an accurate account of how things went down, I wouldn’t call that guy a Rav.February 7, 2011 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #740329HaKatanParticipant
Eclipse, I hope no others ever experience the pain you eloquently convey and and I don’t mean to minimize your personal circumstances.
But there are women who do not understand that a healthy intimate relationship is the main glue that keeps a marriage together. While that doesn’t excuse what men do in response to a lack of that physical intimacy, the woman, in that case, if she reasonably could do better, whether in attitude or in deed, she is playing with fire by not doing what she should be doing.
Men also need to know the emotional needs of women, and be able to reasonably fulfill that, too. One leads to another the other leads to the first.
Rabbi Shafier, of The Shmuz, has an excellent “Nidah” series of audio shiurim. In one of those, he mentions how Yaakov Avinu should have been “head over heels in love” with Leah simply because he married her and had an intimate relationship with her. If I recall, it was only because Yaakov was the Ish Emes that he was and Lavan’s trickery so abhorred him, that this was able to override an otherwise natural (and this is also common medical knowledge) feeling of being emotionally bonded to Leah.
I may not have accurately repeated this portion of his shiur, as I listened to that shiur a number of years ago, but you can get it online and hear for yourself.February 7, 2011 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #740330
TFS- Thanks for sharingFebruary 7, 2011 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #740331
mytake – I think we’re on the same page… on everything u said so far.February 7, 2011 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #740332
eclipse – “My ex also had/s a similar addiction and I tolerated EVEN that,against my will.But EVERY SINGLE RAV’S advice pointed to ME being at fault somehow!”
Wow! I should have had you ex’s Rabbonim. No Rav ever took my side. There were Rabbonim that I didn’t even speak to and were against me. The problem is and knew about this from before is that some Rabbonim are Nogeiah B’dovor. I’ve seen cases like your husband that they protect because of PC and cases like me which my faults are 1 millionth of these guys, they attack.February 7, 2011 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #740333
TO REALLY SMILE:My point is you hit a raw nerve.Was that not clear??February 7, 2011 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #740334
Again, why do you pick on frum women? ARe you saying that the women your husband was looking at on the internet was untzniusdik frum women? Obviously NOT! In addition, he came to you with a problem. He should have worked on his problem prior to getting married and NOT bring it in to marriage. Obviously you love your husband but why are you making excuses for him???? Why did it take him so long to ‘fess up to you? YOUR husband has a problem!! Part of that problem is admitting it and seeking help. Blaming what other people do or don’t do is foolish, your husband’s problem is his, HE owns it and HE needs to choose between feeding it and giving in to it or getting help. At this point when he was risking too much he chose to get help, but instead of holding your husband responsible and accountable you fault others. HOW is that going to help him?
If a woman is standing unclothed in a room a man has the option to stay or walk away. Many goyim will stay and gawk, it would take a special goy to walk away. Most frum men would walk away it would take a very weak frum man to stay. That would be a man who forgets who else is watching! Yes frum JEWS men and women have certain obligations but blaming someone else for anyone not being responsible for their own actions is ludicrous. YES we can ALL work on OUR middos and commitment but we are not the only ones on this earth as you proved with your husband’s internet addiction which had nothing to do with untznius frum women. AND we can’t shelter everyone from the world around us. WE each have to remember that we stand before the KING and everything we do is seen and noted.February 7, 2011 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #740335
to really smile – “ur right, BUT internet IS doubly bad because if used in the wrong way, it can affect everything else.”
There is no such thing -an aveira is an aveira. There are plenty of people who speak LH so much; don’t think for a second this isn’t affecting you in many ways. While it’s apparent to everyone when someone looks at bad things, that they are doing something wrong, most people who speak LH don’t even think that they are doing anything wrong. I’ve seen in Mussar Seforim that half the teshuva is realizing that you are doing aveiros; a lot of people speaking LH don’t even have that realization. Your husband realizes his faults and is going to do something about them. I give him a lot of credit!February 7, 2011 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #740336
You obviously don’t have an understanding about addictions.
Not always does the person with the addiction know that they have one.
Those who realize that something is wrong, finally go for help. Others can live their entire life without realizing that they have a problemFebruary 7, 2011 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #740337gavra_at_workParticipant
You underestimate the power of the dark side. Melech Menashe was Mayid on Rav that he would lift his hems to run faster to Avoda Zara.
Many goyim will stay and gawk, it would take a special goy to walk away. Most frum men would walk away it would take a very weak frum man to stay.
IMHO, this has nothing to do with jew vs. non jew. This is a question of morality. The Amish, Mormon or even devout Catholic will turn away.
And it takes a strong jew not to look, especially if there are only three in the room: the guy, girl and the RBSO, and no one else will ever know.February 7, 2011 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #740338yeshiva guyParticipant
Does anyone think that more formal “education” for both men and and women prior to marriage will allow men to be more satisfied with what they have at home?February 7, 2011 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #740339
GAW – Even Yosef Hatzadik had to run. He wouldn’t have even lasted an extra second to take his clothes with him.
You are right, never underestimate the power of the Yetzer Hora!February 7, 2011 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #740340
to really smile and smartcookie
Why, are women so afraid to accept responsibility here??? Why do most women get so cynical, overly defensive and all worked up when the subject is brought up?
Any thoughts?February 7, 2011 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #740341NotABochurAnymoreParticipant
to really smile – my point was that yes, I understand what he was doing on the computer. even those actions are not NECESSARILY an addiction. sometimes (and i mean that. it’s not all the time) women (not you, eclipse) do not understand their husbands’ needs in those areas or aren’t interested. I just feel that words like addiction, OCD, etc. are thrown around way way too much by nonprofessionals. your husband admittedly has an addiction. My point was to clarify to the rest of the room that it isn’t always an addiction.February 7, 2011 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #740342
1dayatatime, I know all about addictions, thank you very much for assuming too much. I have dealt with many kids with drug and alcohol addictions and those who enable them do more harm than good! Maybe YOU don’t know anything about that! Everyone knows they have an addiction they just don’t want to label it such. Everyone knows when they are doing something wrong or they would be doing it in public for all to see.
Are you saying that those with this sort of addiction are out in the open about it or are they careful to cover their tracks? Well if they know enough to hide it they know they have a problem and they know that THEY have to choose whether to feed their addiction or get help. This guy hid it from his wife for 5 years. Obviously he knew he had a problem because he was careful to hide it from her. Do YOU get that? Do not sympathize with the abuser! Do not enable them! Do not make excuses for them! The only way to help an addict is to make them responsible and accountable for their actions. That is something YOU should learn about addiction.February 7, 2011 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #740343
Many of us felt inadequate, unworthy, alone, and afraid. Our insides never matched what we saw on the outsides of others.
We became true addicts
This produced guilt, self-hatred, remorse, emptiness, and pain, and we were driven ever inward, away from reality, away from love, lost inside ourselves.
First addicts, then love cripples, we took from others to fill up what was lacking in ourselves. Conning ourselves time and again that the next one would save us, we were really losing our lives.”February 7, 2011 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #740344
Bochur, you have a very good point. It is NOT an addiction, obviously they CAN live without it and will not go through withdrawal without it. It is a person who is not in control of his/her yetzer horah. And you can’t fault someone else for that.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.