Sharing the burden – Why Israel needs Chareidim to survive.

a good point. social contract requires agreement of all sides – so, go find chilonim who would agree with you, and then do your part.

yya is one hundred percent right

.

R’ Yaakov Yosef,
You are 100% right.
The problem is that there is no one on the other side looking for an explanation.
Halevai ther ewould be the understanding and respect for the frum community and their values.

Eretz Yisrael does need Chareidim to survive.

That’s why they should join the army.

As it says in the Torah HaKedoshah:
ויאמר משה לבני־גד ולבני ראובן האחיכם יבאו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה׃

The Hasmonean Brigade is the perfect place for them.

Torah, training, and taharah from anti-religionists.

The Chareidim actually have ‘Efrat’, which is a Chareidi organization whose sole purpose is to save Chiloni babies… Think about that for a second. Chareidim, for themselves, don’t need the services of Efrat at all. But they pay for it and volunteer for it. Is there any comparable Chiloni organization that ONLY helps Chareidim? [Efrat has nothing to do with Kiruv and doesn’t in any way mix into the lives of these children when they grow. They do their עבודת קודש simply so that these Jewish babies should live.]

[yya]

—

extremely powerful argument
.

@Yaakov Yosef A
You are very funny!

But counterpoint: your words make no sense.

I literally do not know what you are talking about.

@yankel berel
You should read what I said better.

I don’t need Chareidim to survive. Eretz Yisrael does!

A Brigade which has no women and time for Torah and Tefilah is wonderful!

Why do you hate a true Torah army regiment?

@vayidom

because the fact of the matter is that this is nice only on paper

the reports coming back tell a story of nice haredi wrapping paper with melting pot materiel as the product

you cannot deny that this is their aim …

to remake the haredi into their own image
.
.

flatbush > Today even truck drivers,plumbers and lay people dress like rebbes. It’s a different world.

is it really a different world or just looks strange? are these shterimel-dressed people all behave like tzadikim? I don’t think middos moved at the same speed as the dress code. Same goes for learning. To quote someone “if we have 1000 times more people in yeshiva than during Rambam’s time – where are 1000 Rambams of our generation”?

Vayidom- I live in Israel and speak with families and boys who have joined the army. It is nothing like you think in your dream of a perfect solution. The army in any and all its brigades is a negative influence to put it mildly and the boys have been affected in irreversible aspects of their lives. Daily there are reports from within that the army has not and does not have intention to provide the spiritual safe haven that they promised. Its a farse and if you feel that its worth it to passify the people who would wish you did not exist- then go for it. Most people who understand know that they do not actuallly need us as there are 3 times more non-religous draft evaders than chareidim draft evaders and if they were looking for missing manpower they would target their own. They target us because they do not like what we represent and joining the army is their way of suppressing us.
Its time to open our eyes and be strong so not to be confused and rattled in order to acquiesce to the powers that wish to destroy the chareidi society.

I think the most principled response from Chareidim is that they won’t serve in the IDF because they don’t support the Zionist state. Simply saying the army is bad for religious observance isn’t sufficient. The argument draft pushers will use is to join religious units or to try to change the IDF to be more religiously friendly. If the Zionist state is legit then there isn’t a strong argument against serving in the IDF. The IDF draft push is part of what pushed me to the Satmar view. The Status quo created by Agudah and others isn’t maintainable long term. Chareidim need to be of one voice that we oppose the Zionist state and we don’t want to be ruled by it.

@ julius

the argument against the draft because of the resulting remake of the draftees into their commanders image is very powerful

this is against the whole torah

much stronger than some weak reasoned principle of the 3 shavu’ot

which does not withstand even summary scrutiny
.

julius> we oppose the Zionist state

what does it mean?
you don’t want to live there? fine, I think Israel is not USSR, you can get up and leave
you want to live in EY but do not want to live in the Medinah? Go to PA, Gazah, Jordan, Syria and make your case for being a perfect dhimmi.
you want to live in a country but do not agree with the government? It is a democracy, so you can vote for your shitah?
you want to live in a country but do not want to follow the laws created by that democracy? then, you are a criminal in any normal country.
you disagree with the government just because it is run by Jews but not according to halocha? Then, you are a real Zionist – have much higher expectations from Medinah that you would from any other country where you would follow the laws.

yankel > I want to live in EY free from secular coercion
> and that is my definite right

This is such a modern, assimilated statements. Maybe we should call it CZ – charedi zionism. Jews lived under all kind of governments both in EY and in golus. We know how to react to them. This “rights” is a very modern position.

Hashem put you in a certain environment, which is more exciting than many generations of Yidden had. You can live in EY; you can learn without being afraid of Roman soldiers or commissars catching you; you have a healthy number of religious Jews around you – some agree with you on everything, others – argue on some; you can participate in the politics of that state. You would think that you’ll be thanking Hashem for this, go to work, fulfil your civil obligations, learn, teach others …

Maybe, there is here another modern phenomenon – presumed safety. As helicopter parents watch for their kids, expecting to control every challenge they get, you can’t live with a thought that someone in your community will be confronted with a minute challenge – talking to non-religious Jews, having to endure a woman in charge of your basic training, having to get up and leave from a meeting because of kol isha or anything else inappropriate.

@always_ask_questions
> I think Israel is not USSR, you can get up and leave
many jews get arrested while trying to leave

> you want to live in a country but do not agree with the government? It is a democracy, so you can…
we jews disagree with the democracy version of zionism as well. We do not want to, chalila, improve it, we want to see it destroyed (peacefully)

> you want to live in a country but do not want to follow the laws created by that democracy? then, you are a criminal in any normal country.
correct. jews were legal criminals in nazi germany. we are criminals in nazi israel as well.
calling someone a “criminal” is not a moral statement of right or wrong, it is a technical reality vis-a-vis according to who has the guns.
to be clear, many Jews lived here before the evil zionists came and violently took control. those same jews can continue to resist and reject that government. So too can anyone else from wherever they are in the world.

> you disagree with the government just because it is run by Jews but not according to halocha? Then, you are a real Zionist
I agree. those are the worst types of zionists. may Hashem quickly destroy all those who rebel against Him and profane His Torah.

@yankel-berel
>every jew has the inherent right to live in EY
that is certainly not a Torah given “right”, so who is declaring such a “right” for all Jews?
We Jews are in gulis, which literally meant that we lost any collective G-d given “right” to live in EY.

The rest of your musing are equally foolish. who gives you the “right” to not be coerced by secularist? Are you free to demand that you have no nisyonos?

Where do you get all this foolishness from, notzris? nationalism? mental issues?

YYA> This has nothing to do with democracy, by the way. The laws of a kingdom or dictatorship are not any less binding, and the laws of a democracy are not more moral when they contradict the Torah, simply because they were legislated through due process.)

This is a good question. We do differentiate between good and bad governments. From Shapur to R Feinstein talking about showing proper respect and participation in a moral country.

Obviously, democracy per se is not a synonym of morality. Rome was a republic and even when currently historians talk about “Roman empire”, Romans at the time continued calling it a republic, with the Emperor being one of the officials… Senate was the symbol of the republic, even when it was subservient. Gemora understood the nature of this imperial republic t in AZ – where Antoninus asks Rebbe whether he should ask Senate to reduce taxes on the Jews or have his son become the next emperor – and he has only one chance to ask …

Still, in our times, empirically, republics and democracies are mostly free countries with some moral foundations. It is based on the fact that these systems are built on already proven political models and on access to general education. Would you agree with that?

> BTW, a Jewish non-Torah government in Eretz Yisroel doesn’t even have דינא דמלכותא status, rather they are considered ליסטים, like Mexican “cartelocracy”.

I heard this opinion. I would appreciate if you could give reasoning and source behind it. My guess it would be either:

1) based on analysis of Israeli government system as it is. We talked about that before, and Israeli system is pretty normal by modern standard and much closer to Europe than to Mexico (both being democracies). Not perfect, but quite reasonable.

2) based on what we expect from the Jewish country. I am very much on board with that, but I don’t see how one could (metaphorically) call Israeli government “goyim” and then expect more from them. This is pure charedi zionism ™. And if we agree to expect more from our brothers, then it should be conditioned on treating them as brothers.

reb-mutche> Would you have said this when Nazi Germany ‘passed laws’ democratically,

see my reply to YYA, I agree that democracies do not have to be moral. Rome was not. Sdom was not. Just in modern times, democracies seem to be way more moral than anyone else. In the case of Germany, it was a weak short-lived democracy (Weimar Republic) that fell under a dual attack of communists and nazis, enabling nazis to get control under plurality and it stopped being a democracy at some point there.

> The current situation has NOTHING to do with the army needing more soliders.
> There are more non chareidi ‘draft dodgers’ than chareidi draft dodgers.

I think you feel uncomfortable with the situation (unlike some people/posters who simply declare – we don’t care, they are bad people – and you are trying to develop an argument to support your position. I don’t think it works out well. First, according to published numbers up to 80% of draft dodgers right now are charedi. Maybe these numbers are skewed and maybe they were not such a year ago. Even if you are right, it is not a good argument: all other communities provide soldiers, charedim do not. Putting aside a moral argument of why your blood is redder than theirs, there is a practical argument – a small remaining percentage of other communities are people with some problems or valid excuses. Totality of charedi community should include a lot of capable soldiers, even if you make a fair exemption for true learners.

> Almost all politicians now pushing for the draft of yeshiva bachurim, have in the past agreed to exempt yeshiva bachurim in exchange for chareidi support in ther parties.

Don’t confuse process with outcomes. Politicians are there to represent voter interests and find some resolutions to conflicts “so that people do not swallow each other alive” in the words of pirkei avos. They all might have their own personal interests. They come up with some consensus despite that.

Also, look at the history of the issue – there were multiple compromises with expectation that charedi community will come up with some solution, but it did not happen, so politicians, and their voters, have a right to be frustrated from their point of view.

YYA> . Everyone has ‘obligations’ that if fulfilled protect all of the things modern legal systems attempt to protect through the institution of ‘rights’.

exactly. This is what I was saying to posters who claimed “rights”. To your next argument, that we are asking for Israeli government rights according to their rules, I have no problem with that – elect your knesset members and petition the court, but posters wanted more than that.

YYA, great, we seem to agree on Romans and on practical goodness of democracies in our times. You also brought Brisker to support my observations of the Zionism of the “anti-Zionism”. I might have referred to that episode subconsciously, I do not pretend to have Brisker sense of humor. There is a similar observation of philo- and antisemites – both have excessive expectations of Jews and can easily go from one state to another.

But we seem to narrow down your argument to the “halakha” that non-Torah Jewish government in EY is by definition illegitimate. I presume this tradition from Chazon Ish and R Wosner is strong, but, as posted by you, is not very impressive so far – oral message, no references to classical halocha, and plenty of middle-of-the-road rabbis who did not hold by this. I would agree, though, that throughout Tanach and Gemora, Hashem and T’Ch “demand more” from Jewish leaders than from an average goyishe tribe chief. But if you try to apply that to modern Israel, you can’t avoid taking into account all political circumstances, leaving a lot of place to be meikel. So, my conclusion is – you choose to take this position, halakha is not forcing you.

There are reports that the new army regulations for charedim was done with approval of Beltzer and Karlin. So, if at least their followers will join this, we will see in a year or two, whether this approach works for both sides. Some progress,

AAQ:
I think Israel is not USSR, you can get up and leave

somejew :
many jews get arrested while trying to leave

AAQ :
people who knew they will be obligated to serve in the army, chose to stay in the country, and then got arrested for violating army orders. These people had time to leave before they were called up. They did not care.
I am not sure what yeshiva is responsible for your education. You seem to be totally oblivious to the idea of emes in a discussion.
.

.

.

AAQ – Let’s not forget the topic being discussed.
I understand that you want to see ll the frum community in the army.
You made that quite clear.
The topic here is that the chareidim are doing their part by raising large families, and why is this issue not part of the equation of “sharing the burden”?
Let’s stay focused.
Also, NO ONE in the frum community says that the ones learning should do any kind of service as the “medina” seea as service.
EVEN those that agree under some circumstances to seme sore of chareidi devision/s in the army, that is only for those anyway not learning.
Any bachur or yungerman that is learning must be excemp from all and any other kind of service.