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reb M> The topic here is that the chareidim are doing their part by raising large families, and why is this issue not part of the equation of “sharing the burden”?
it is in the gemorah whether one can take someone’s life instead of his own – who says your blood is redder. And, as with all contracts, they require agreement of both sides. If you can convince the rest of Israelis of your mailos, I’ll have no problems with that at all! So, the question becomes: why don’t non-charedi Israelis value great charedi contribution in growing families, learning Torah, providing religious services to others, having great middos, inviting foreign investment, providing kiddush Hashem and kiddush medina story in international papers about great Torah lifestyle, etc?
You can’t blame this on anti-religious sentiment – B’H majority of Israelis are either observant or traditional, with many others indifferent rather than anti-religious.
rebM > EVEN those that agree under some circumstances to seme sore of chareidi devision/s in the army, that is only for those anyway not learning.
Any bachur or yungerman that is learning must be excemp from all and any other kind of service.This is a pretty reasonable position, with some details open to negotation – who counts as “learning”, and what quality of “learning”.
Mir mashgiach used to plead with the bachurim: I am signing your exemption as toraso umanoso, I never lied in my life, don’t make me into aliar, learn at full strength. What are the current mashgichim telling to you or your children – can someone quote?
YYA> Dati Leumi Rabbanim: “IDF Is Violating Orders;
this is the right way to deal with the issue – they participate, and then deal with problem that arise.> Ehrlich” is defined by Hashem and His Torah. Not by your personal sensibilities
Ehrlich is about obligations to the others. I understand you are taking offense of my suggestion to leave the country. This is purely a socratic argument here. You plan to take advantage of a service that others are providing for you and refuse to participate. You propose a payment that they find insufficient. Then, don’t use the service. You can live in EY outside of medina.> No one is looking to “get some acceptance” from the poritz.
When you live under Poritz and have a chance to live in a normal country, you need to move. See Rambam/desert. Any commentaries there that discuss whether and how is EY different in this aspect?> Because before there was a medinah and an IDF the Maskilim, Zionists and Secularists just loved us.
this is over the top. this is not current Israel.
> Don’t hold your breath waiting to see Belzer soldiers…
you know israeli politics better than I do, so maybe this is a ploy. But presumably rabbonim sign something they can agree with, they just hope that the plan will not work out. why then others do not sign to this? Could it be that you are projecting your uncompromising position onto them?
> the children belong to the Chareidim.
It is suggestive, but history is not always predictable. We had generations where things shifted a lot. Conservative movement in US was very strong 40% of population – and now it is not, they just stopped having children and enthusiasm towards the ideology. Everyone was “frum” in Lita contrary to Germany – until suddenly everyone stopped. If you continue ignoring social and ideological problems with charedism, you are making your community weaker, not stronger.it is more predictable that Israel will have observant majority – if you add RZ, stam observant and traditional Yidden together. Then, it will not be kashrus out of Ben Gurion’s sentimentalism, but because knesset will consistently vote for it. Is this exciting enough? Something unimaginable 100 years ago. Will we all be able to run the country together in an erliche way, or we will continue squabble? will your eineklah join IDG with kashrus mehadrin, women instructors in beis yaakov skirts and sheitels – but with, say hallel on yom haatzmaut? bli brocha?
AAQ said: “Everyone was “frum” in Lita contrary to Germany – until suddenly everyone stopped.”
YYA: Ever heard of the “Haskalah” movement?this was not out of nowhere, haskala was already in western Europe. Were Litvaks ready? no. Alter rebbe tried to slow down its arrival by helping the Czar fight Napoleon, at least he understood what was going to happen … But it is very shortsighted to blame maskilim – their appearance was natural consequence of the progress in science & technology – to which, at the time, neither Jews nor goyim had a good answer. Now, we do. But, at the time, our answer was inadequate. These are not only my thoughts. Similarly, R Soloveitchik asks – what if Jews at the Roman times came up with something like Spanish-time philosophical works – this, more timely, response, would have let the world understand Jewish ideas better at the time they were absorbing some of them into a new religion.
YYA: By that definition there may already be a majority. But Chareidim are growing far faster than any of those groups, except for the far right of the RZ who are becoming more Chareidi…
AAQ: “will your eineklah join IDG with kashrus mehadrin, women instructors in beis yaakov skirts and sheitels – but with, say hallel on yom haatzmaut? bli brocha?”
YYA: Women instructors for men, or women in the army altogether, is אביזרייהו דגילוי עריות. With or without sheitels. Kashrus is literally the least of the problems in the IDF. Hallel on Yom Ha’atzamot? For what exactly?
Let’s put Devorah aside … So this seems to be the core question – so we are having or soon will have a kosher majority in Israel. By forging a joint position, this makes it possible to resolve all the issues you are concerned about in a democratic way (supreme court will eventually give up too in the face of a sustained majority). Are charedim capable of joining other kosher Yidden in forming a Torah-true country? According to my theory – yes, as most of the strict boundaries in the charedi community are for protection. So, now protection will not be needed.
The rest is a tactical question of chicken and egg – can charedim start cooperating and help bring kosher Israel faster or will you be waiting for someone else to deal with the problems and will join only when it is safe. Whole Chumash is about being leaders in solving issues, not waiting until someone else will create a perfect environment for you.
YYA, thanks for the answers, I think this is the core issue:
> Now let’s talk about “taking advantage of a service that others are providing for you and refuse to participate”.
> There are about half a dozen main arguments why Chareidim, myself included, do not feel any guilt about this whatsoever,
.> The whole point of life is to do רצון השם יתברך ולדבקה בו.
and long poetic elaboration, confirmed by the rabbeim.i don’t understand. My argument is simple and has nothing to do with chilonim or goyim: you are openly taking advantage of others, making them protect you. This sounds like gezelah, aggravated that this is about taking life risks, not just money. There is no davening or learning that can override such aveiros. Sheretz byado. Rambam is pretty clear on that aspect of teshuva.
Maybe the only of a “half a dozen” arguments that seems to make sense to me is that if government makes arrangements to allow you not to serve, then you got a contract with other Israelis through legit democracy. So even if many are unhappy, it is legit. But we are now talking about possible change in the legal situation. So, if you have a choice between being a gazlan, doing something that you don’t think is allowed and leaving, leaving is the ehrliche Torah answer. I am wondering whether you can present this argument to your Rav and let me know his reply.
Thanks for referring to Rambam. My question is whether anyone comments on this, suggesting that EY is different here.
> Since there is basically wall to wall consensus on this in the entire Chareidi world, so for all of us the issue is closed.
a true scotsman here? Or as one Manhattan lady exclaimed – how did Nixon won the election if I don’t know anyone who voted for him?
Who made “charedi” a synonym to “Torah”? If after we went through various logical aspects of this, the final answer is based on “I am right because I am right”, then it is an indication of a weakness in the position.YYA> Which is actually why I started this thread on a different topic.
Back to your original question, maybe there is a mutual reliance here. To simpifY:
charedim don’t care about serving because chilonim protect them.
chilonim don’t care about population growth, because charedim have big families.What would happen, if all chilonim suddenly decamped to Uganda. I presume charedim would run to man the guns, F-35s, and iron dome. Or to the airport. It might be very confusing at the beginning as a lot of training is required. Presumably, chilonim will be responsible in their retreat and they’ll train charedim first.
Now, reverse to your question. What would happen if all Charedim decamp for Stamford Hill? Chilonim will start worrying about population. They’ll have some apartments in Yerushalaim to move in. Government will start paying for having more children, but it is not easy to change basic family structure.. Maybe harder than to train for flying F-35s. Some might want to convert bunch of non-Jews …
Maybe in both scenarios, RZs will save the day – by being able to relate to both camps and teach them to either fly F-35s or to keep zone defense when there are more kids than parents in the house.
So, now that we realize that everyone is important, maybe time to start respecting each other now. The hint to that is gemorah in Megilah, making megillah reading on market days to accommodate farmers who bring you food.
YYA> It isn’t at all our problem to make a “kosher Israel”. Our job is to keep the Torah as taught by our Rebbeim
sounds like an answer Moshe gave at the sne … well, that also happened only once in history … this is a self-protective instinct to go away from others not just to Torah but even only to the Torah taught “by your Rebbeim” …
YYA> You said “charedim don’t care about serving because chilonim protect them.” The way you worded that statement is כפירה .. “Chareidim don’t go to the army because Chilonim do go.”
So, (again, this is a Socratic logical discussion, not a social policy) let’s say chilonim go to the army, but they are bad at that. The country is, H’V, open to attack, any neighboring country can send missiles or invade. You will then say, there is no halachik reason to organize defense or do something else – flee, negotiate, bribe, etc? Can your charedi town ask Iron Dome to exclude your town from the system? I think this would be a real kefirah.
YYA> Correct. If the Chilonim WOULDN’T go to the army, there would be no problem for us to go…
excellent attitude. And very forward-looking to the times of presumed charedi majority. There are certain areas where charedim already excel – hatzolah, hevra kadisha. Is there any other military-oriented services you can start now? police your towns against terrorists and non-halachik demonstrators? uncover and prevent your chevra from clicking on Iranian messages? simply, having your own military training, organizing units that can later join army on your own conditions. Many countries in the region have tribal militias.
YYA> They don’t care because they don’t care. If Chareidim wouldn’t have large families ח״ו, do you seriously think the Chilonim would in any way change their lifestyle
Population issue was (is?) part of Zionist discourse. Government would use more resources to subsidize larger families. Maybe even more than now, as now “subsidies for Nth child” is a code word for paying charedim and, thus, controversial. Would this work? I am not sure – it seems that world experience with encouraging more children by money is not working well. But I am explicitly comparing this with Charedim/IDF. If ISrael were to rely on a charedi army right now – that also would not be easy.
YYA, a good question about definitions. We had some exotic discussions with some posters here, but I don’t think you are in the camp of denying validity to observant Jews who disagree with you. What you seem to be claiming, though, is that charedim are “a religious group”. This troubles me. And this may indeed be the source of differences.
I have no problem with, say, Teimanim or Yakkis to have their own minhagim, even Chassidim :). Even then, everyone can eat or not eat rice on Pesach, but if we were to form a joint army or social services, it would not be right if rules were different for different groups. Presumably, a beis din would be formed to develop a uniform policy. I know, for example, sephardi rabbis who allow their congregants to use Ashkenazi eruvin that are not al pi Sephardim.
YYA> A broad consensus of experts i.e. Gedolei Yisroel, say one thing, and ‘AAQ’ says other things. If you have your own ‘experts’, so follow them. We will follow ours.
I think we got to some point here: if we have an important communal issue – can every “religious group” follow their own derech or is there a need for finding a common solution. Let’s for simplicity exclude non-religious Jews, just two groups of religious Jews – and this issue is either joining current IDF or IDF consisting of both groups of Jews.
YYA> What precisely defines one as a “true Chareidi” is an interesting discussion in itself, but SOMETHING must be a red line.
We were discussing potential variety of halachik opinions, and I don’t think I used “true charedi”. Too lazy to scroll up, but I don’t recognize that there is “charedi halakha” separate from stam halakha.
> Something some Sephardim are machmir on, but it isn’t really a chiyuv even for them.
right. But this particular rav paskened like that for his congregation, but I never saw him carrying anything himself. I was considering jokingly offer him a something in the street until he mentioned that he used the eruv when he needed to move his mother in a wheelchair.
so on Scotsman, let’s take American example from 1950s (because I am more familiar with it). Here are R Kotler and R Soloveitchik having different attitudes towards a number of social issues. Both from impeccable pedigree, both T’Ch, both members of moetzes. both somewhat differ from established rabbonim of the time. There were rabbis who did not like RYBS approach, but there were also those who did not like R Kotler’s approach.
In our times, many would select the opinion of one over the other based on the group they belong to. How would you select one over the other at that time before each of them built their community?
YYA> Even if I don’t know what exactly ‘Chareidi’ is,
You keep harping on the “charedi” self-identification. I don’t really care. Was Rambam charedi? I asked here before – and would he be now?
When I started wondering whether Rambam in our times will go to Lakewood or to MIT first (nobody answered here), someone said – to Lakewood, because after MIT, he will not be admitted to Lakewood.I gave an example of two T’Ch who mutually respected each other, disagreed on a number of issues, and also were both connected with multiple other respected rabbis, with whom both sometimes agreed, sometimes disagreed. Let’s say, you are a pashute kosher Jews totally disconnected from this internal football, say, a Persian or a Teimani, landing in NYC. You know what Torah is, you can read it by heart, you know Rambam and S’A … So, you listen to these two T’Ch. Do you have a way to select which one of them is the “real Torah”, or maybe you decide that both have value, and you show both a good Sephardishe respect.
For example, on co-ed high schools – R Soloveitchik writes certain rationales for this. He was certainly aware of all possible objections. In fact, his first response from a shaila from NY board in 1950s was that he is not going to respond to such a provocative topic without an assurance that someone needs it. Only when they wrote back that they bind themselves to follow his psak, he writes a full answer. In truth, some of his rationales are somewhat outdated and may not apply in our times – and a lot of serious MO schools are indeed not co-ed any more.
YYA:
on Rambam> he wasn’t “RZ” because Zionism wasn’t invented yet… He wasn’t “MO”I think he was MO at his time. As one Chabad-Charedi rav/engineer responded to my question about Rambam’s relations to various philosophies, he answered succinctly: Rambam was not afarid to be mode alhaemes regardless of the source.
> To become a doctor 800 years ago, there was no need to go to college or medical school … Let alone gratuitous courses in kefirah … Rambam sat and learned full time and was supported fully by his brother [contrary to how people misinterpret his shittah…]
I agree, stam being a doctor was a good parnosah for a medium-educated person at the time. Still, Rambam was working for senior leaders in Egypt, so presumably he was better than someone getting a degree from a diploma-mill. But, his other work in astronomy and philosophy shows great familiarity with “modern” (for his time) works. Note that between Spain and Egypt, he was in Fes. Modern muslim apologists call Fes medrasa “first university”, preceding and possibly providing an example to Sorbonne and Oxford, as it integrated religious and scientific studies. You had to be muslim to attend. And later on in Egypt Rambam was accused (and acquitted) of being a “former Muslim” (a death-penalty crime) by someone who knew him in Fes. Whatever the circumstances. clearly Rambam was hanging out around people who learned in the medrasa, in addition to his previous studies in Fes.
On his brother’s support: I personally have no problems with people learning supported by their family or other willing donors. Kol hakavod. Especially if they are at Rambam’s level. “Rambam and I”, if I may use this phrase, have problem with those who impose support of them on others. Rambam does not approve relying on general tzedokah (and kal vehomer on non-Jewish one). I presume he would not favor using government funds that are designated for poor by staying or pretending to be poor. Not sure what he would think about people who strive to learn without clear results. He was clearly sympathetic – his Mishna Torah is for not-top-learners, but presumably for those who work & have less time to learn. But I think it is a fascinating way to analyze situations from Rambam’s POV. Not because he is “better”, but because his rationalism makes it possible to consider what he would do in our days.
YYA> Among Sephardim who went to Ashkenazi institutes of higher Jewish learning, I believe there are more in Yeshivish places than in YU style places.
I think many of them, including charedi T’Ch are more accepting of non-charedi positions on various social issues. As you probably know a joke about a lady who sat down near a rov on a bus to annoy him and caused a scene. Next day, she sat down near Sephardi rav and he paid no attention to her. When questioned why he did not upheld kavod Torah, he humbly responded: Hu rav, ani – chacham.
I once heard a sephardi ashk-yeshivish-educated moetses-following rav giving a chanuka dvar Torah, who never ever quoted anyone RZ, highlighting military aspect of Chanuka. I needled him (in private) “you sounded like a hidden Zionist”, to which he answered, to my amazement: “why so hidden”. I was not quick to answer – because you said this only in private …
YYA> In simple English, the rationale boils down to one line: “If they will anyway have boyfriends/girlfriends [=כרת], better they should have Jewish boyfriends/girlfriends than Goyish ones
I am not sure I can fully summarize Rav’s arguments, I think they change between different teshuvos and speeches. But here is some of it (from 1950s):
– most modern women get various ideas and opportunities in non-Jewish culture and they need to be knowledgeable in Jewish values to understand why they are different and better than alternatives (he is not talking Brooklyn, same way as R Avigdor Miller’s advice is not for those at Harvard).
– some of modern women, those who have/are getting high secular education, are capable and require same level of Jewish learning.
– having separate classes will mean that girls education will be at lower level than boys and the goals needed above will not be achieved.I would note that Rav presumes that American Jews will be involved in American culture and education as a given. I am not sure to what degree he approves of it for “masses”, but he simply takes it as a fact. For example, he criticizes Mizrachi who come to US to only fundraise for Israeli education – mostly from first generation Americans. He says – think that Israeli Jews will get something anyway, but second-generation American Jews might disappear (and not donate to Mizrachi). He says I was able to open the high school, I am not asking you for money, but I am stunned that none of you offered to help.
On the subpar Jewish education for girls, I can see the argument at the time. I think it is only partially true today. We seemingly have lots of schools for girls. And as a parent, I don’t want my daughters to focus on what the boys are learning (and, to be truthful, same goes for sons :). And YU has separate college for girls, and so do many MO schools. At the same time, those girl schools often make girls incurious and spend time to indoctrination in skirt length and not using cellphones (that they are all using). I know it is important, but I also know that they love talking at home about actual learning.
So, to summarize, I would characterize Rav’s push for co-ed learning as haraas shaah, similar to Chazon Ish’s hiding in a desert. None of my kids went to co-ed so far, not counting online colleges, and this does not contradict my respect of the Rav.The general charedi mindset is separation. Yes, the key to a future jewish majority that is very seperated from everyone else. I get the reasons, but the mindset not only creates a disconnect from non chardonnay society, it produces a disconnect within charedi society itself, between those who succeed in learning (or at least desire to learn even if they do not) and those who do not suceed so much) and those who do not. “The rest,” who form the majority are stuck – with no marketable education, their job opportunities are limited and most will be poor. Rav Steinerman zt”l, saw the situation for whatit was it was (and still is) and created forward tinkling programs to integrate “The rest” into the workforce, but he was stoned for what many considered and still consider his dangerous ideas. Very sad for all those who all those who are stuck….
So, now that R Landau and R Hirsh told bochrim to stay and learn, can charedim organize their own force to catch those who disobey this psak and deal with them in a beis din, before they get caught by civil authorities. This would be a good step towards learning how to run a country.
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