Sheitel With A Cap On Top

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  • #604869

    shmoel
    Member

    Which Chasidus has the minhag where the wives wear what looks like a sheitel with a dark circular cap in middle of the sheitel, covering most but not all of the shitel (some sheitel “hair” protrudes from all sides of the cap)?

    #1072199

    shmoel
    Member

    It’s quite common in Boro Park. Bobov, perhaps? And what is this type of sheitel called?

    #1072200

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    I think it’s called a shpitzel (or is that only when the sheitel sticks out in front? Not sure…).

    #1072201

    shmoel
    Member

    A shpitzel is a tichel with a few strands of “hair” attached to the front of it. It is different than what is being described above.

    #1072202

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    My bad. 😛

    #1072203

    mytake
    Member

    🙂 Cute the way you describe it. The “dark circular cap” is either a hat or a dark tichel that is set in a way to look like a “cap”.

    It can be worn on either a sheitel (with some of it protruding from the sides) or with a shpitzel (in which case you will only see it in the front.

    You will find it in Viznitz and Satmar, and I’m sure in plenty other chassidus…

    #1072204

    Emunat Chachamim
    Participant

    Who was ever ???? sheitels to begin with? The reason a woman covers her hair when she gets married is to show a distinction between a married woman and an unmarried woman (Maseches Kesuvos). Nowadays, Sheitles are so well made that its impossible to tell if it’s her real hair or not. Great, so now how come most of our wives wear Sheitels? Again this is one of the things that since everyone does, makes us feel like its OK. But that is wrong and if you learn threw the Sugya, you will see that there is really no Heter!

    The Reshonim say a lot of scary things about a woman who goes out in public wearing a Sheitel. Now really think about it, life on earth is not forever but the world to come is! So is it worth lossing out on a life that’s forever because of a silly wig that your wife wears!

    And again, just because everyone does it, that does not make it right. I suggest anyone who still has a doubt to learn threw the Sugya with all the Reshonim and Achronim and then you will understand where I am coming from. This is a huge Nisayon. Let’s not fail it!

    #1072205

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1072206

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1525&st=&pgnum=386

    And particularly this excerpt:

    ??? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????

    #1072207

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant
    #1072208

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The relevant part to answer the question, “Who was ever ???? sheitels to begin with?”:

    ??? ??????? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ???”? ?? ?????? ?”? ??”? ????”? ????”?, ??? ???? ?? ????”? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????

    #1072209

    I asked a rov this question about sheitels and he said even though a majority of poskim don’t permit it, the rabbonim allow it because of the confluence of a) people were insisting on wearing shaitlach and ?? ??? ?? ?? ????? b) there were Sholom Bayis issues when insisting on a tichel and c) at least the women were covering their hair altogether, something that not long ago was a very difficult thing to accomplish even with shaitlach. Because of this it became the communal norm in most places to permit them since we need to choose our battles.

    #1072210

    akuperma
    Participant

    The classic answer to the question of why women wear hats on top of sheitels, is that it is necessary to “keep the wig warm”.

    One should note that in social situations where a hat is expected, a woman who is wearing a wig will wear a hat as well.

    While one can often halachic support for a fashion, one should also realize the frum fashions follow “style”, but that frum communities as someone socially isolated sub-cultures have their own “sense of style.” All frum Jews will find a halachic basis for everything they do (in part, that is what defines being frum), but really the bottom line is “it looks good on me” (which no frum Jew would ever say since that is arrogant and boastful and vain, so we find some halachic argument to justifiy ourselves).

    #1072211

    bigkhuna
    Participant

    Most shaytals can be recognize as such as opposed to her own hair. The shaytals styles are unnatural. A woman would have to have certain hair and spend hours at a beauty parlor to get the appearance of most shaytals. It is the Satmar woman with the little hat on their hair which gives the appearance that the hair sticking out is their own hair. They have the Louis Lane look.

    #1072212

    big: The few fake strands of hairs protruding from under the hats worn by Satmar and other chasidim is so obviously fake or synthetic that almost anyone knows right away that it’s fake hair.

    #1072213

    Mammele
    Participant

    Everything is relative. It really depends on what you’re used to seeing and got to know. Frum women will recognize virtually any sheitel as such, those not familiar with our culture will likely not “chap” either one.

    But by attempting to portray the custom human hair wigs as better Halacha’wise when they are so elaborate and try to imitate the most fashionable hairstyles you are quite frankly fooling yourself….

    #1072214

    owl
    Member

    –Nowadays, Sheitles are so well made that its impossible to tell if it’s her real hair or not.–

    That’s how you know it’s a sheitel, if the hair looks too good to be true, particularly in a woman over 30.

    #1072215

    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    “http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1525&st=&pgnum=386

    And particularly this excerpt:

    ??? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????”

    Does the mechaber of that sefer have many followers here?

    #1072216

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    This may not be well known in the U.S., but the Chazon Ish favored sheitelach over teichelach (scarves).

    #1072217

    golfer
    Participant

    Seems to me the discussion here regarding married women’s headcoverings is all about tznius. And tznius is not as simple as it sounds. Our Chachamim have provided us with general guidelines, but every woman has to find with her own heart and her innate wisdom the path to observing this mitzvah correctly, modestly, and pleasantly. There is no way to define with mathematical precision the manner of speech or dress or behavior that will attract too much attention. While I appreciate (as always) the learned CR members who kindly provide the relevant mareh mekomos, I think we’re better off leaving the sheitels to the ladies. And I hope nobody will mind my asking some of the ladies reading this to take a good look in the mirror next time they’re about to go out shopping or to a simcha, and think – is this how I want my husband to see me, or how I want everybody else’s husbands to see me?

    #1072218

    a_y: I don’t think that comment about the CI is accurate.

    #1072219

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    nolongersingle: do you have specific information on this? Because I have it on very good authority that that was his opinion.

    #1072220

    interjection
    Participant

    is this how I want my husband to see me, or how I want everybody else’s husbands to see me?

    I don’t know any women who dress for other men. Take that back I might know one woman, but Im thinking hard and I can’t even think of a second.

    I know MANY women who dress for other women. Actually most women, if not all, dress for other women.

    #1072221

    golfer
    Participant

    Exactly, interjection.

    Therefore, it might not even have occurred to them to think of the very question that I asked them to think about.

    If they take it into consideration, they might make some adjustments.

    #1072222

    interjection
    Participant

    golfer: Why are the other husbands looking?

    Most women who know that their husbands are already ogling every other woman on the street, feel that there is no need to dress special for their husband. Many do anyway, because their tzidkaniyos but they resent that they feel their husbands don’t deserve it.

    If the rabbanim want the women to dress more tzniusly, they should talk to the men about shmiras einayim, at least as much as they talk to the men to convince them to bully their wives to not wear A-line skirts.

    #1072223

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why are the other husbands looking?

    They’re human beings with a yetzer hora.

    If the rabbanim want the women to dress more tzniusly, they should talk to the men about shmiras einayim

    They want both, and many do in fact talk about shmiras einayim.

    Men shouldn’t use how women dress as an excuse to not practice shmiras einayim, and women shouldn’t use men not overcoming their yetzer hora as an excuse to be machshil them.

    #1072224

    golfer
    Participant

    I wasn’t going to answer your post, interjection, because I couldn’t possibly have put it better than DY.

    But I was (slightly) offended by your comment about men ogling every other woman on the street.

    I can’t speak for all men. But I know a few, personally, who are careful with shmiras einayim. That doesn’t mean you have to be their challenge. There are enough challenges out there for them.

    And I know at least one who, while he deals with this when he’s out in the world, is uncomfortable to find himself in improper surroundings when he’s attending a simcha. It’s not always possible to walk out and go home, and it’s not the kind of place where you expect to have to walk around looking at your shoelaces.

    ** As of yet my husband’s Rav has not requested that he bully me about anything at all, but I was wondering, what’s wrong with an A line skirt?

    #1072225

    interjection
    Participant

    what’s wrong with an A line skirt

    They had an asifa a few months ago in lakewood where they told the men that they have to stop their wives from wearing skirts that flow too much.

    I can’t speak for all men. But I know a few, personally, who are careful with shmiras einayim. That doesn’t mean you have to be their challenge. There are enough challenges out there for them.

    I know there are plenty of men who are careful with their shmiras einayim but I also know there are plenty of women who are careful to dress tzniusly.

    #1072226

    interjection: It’s great that there are plenty of women who are careful to dress appropriately. But unless every man looks at his shoelaces all day, like golfer put it, they’re going to see women. And if some aren’t up to par they will be challenges to every man that see them, due the nature Hashem created men and women.

    #1072227

    Lovelyme
    Member

    Emunat chacham: are you saying women should not wear wigs?

    #1072228

    mw13
    Participant

    akuperma:

    “While one can often halachic support for a fashion, one should also realize the frum fashions follow “style”, but that frum communities as someone socially isolated sub-cultures have their own “sense of style.” All frum Jews will find a halachic basis for everything they do (in part, that is what defines being frum), but really the bottom line is “it looks good on me””

    +1

    As for shaitels in general, I’m under the impression that both R’ Elyashiv and R’ Ovadya Yosef strongly disproved of today’s shaitels, and I seem to remember R’ Elyashiv actually paskened that they are assur.

    american_yerushalmi:

    “This may not be well known in the U.S., but the Chazon Ish favored sheitelach over teichelach (scarves).”

    I never heard about that. Do you know why (or where) he said that?

    interjection:

    “I don’t know any women who dress for other men.”

    “Why are the other husbands looking?”

    It is highly unrealistic to assume both that 99% of women have never given a thought as to how men might see them, and that 99% of men will never be tempted to look at a woman walking down the street. This is why being mechazek in inyanay kedusha, both tzniyus and shmiras eynayim, is so important.

    “If the rabbanim want the women to dress more tzniusly, they should talk to the men about shmiras einayim”

    As DY pointed out, being mechazek in one of these areas does not solve the other. Both are important.

    “at least as much as they talk to the men to convince them to bully their wives to not wear A-line skirts.”

    First of all, I don’t think Rabbonim talk about tzniyus quite as much as you seem to think they do. Perhaps you came to that impression because the only speeches that you hear repeated are the ones pertaining to tzniyus, not the speeches about shmiras eynaim (or loshon hara or learing or talking in shul or listening to choshen mishpat etc etc etc). I have been to many, many speeches (approximately two or three a shabbos for every week of my life) and I don’t think even 2% of them were about tzniyus.

    Secondly, Rabbonim rarely “bully” anybody to do anything (if only because it usually backfires). The reason that Rabbonim talk to men about tzniyus is simply because they are the ones who are normally present for the Rav’s speech.

    #1072229

    Bookworm120
    Participant

    *breaks into song* “…When I go out in my sheitel with the cap on top!”

    #1072230

    ironpenguin
    Member

    I think sheitels are something that, when you look a little deeper, you find it disturbing. Yes, the purpose of covering your hair after marriage is tzniyus but everyone has to admit that a decent sheitel looks better than natural hair. Alot of times, Non Jewish people ask me about this. “If you’re covering your hair for modesty, why does your wig look so good?” After all, even when a married lady takes off her sheitel/snood/tichel, the hair gets crushed and unsightly after just a few months, so even if she had stunning gorgeous hair before her wedding, I think that most women will agree that they feel prettier with the sheitel on. I think, however, that banning sheitels is a misguided way to do things. Just like everything, use moderation.

    Don’t get a sheitel that is too attracting, and every women knows what that is and does not need to have it explained. If you get a decent, normal length, natural color sheitel and keep it a normal style for weekdays and a nice curl or blowout for shabbos, there shouldn’t be that many problems with tzniyus.

    When girls go beyond the line, they know it. I do not believe that girls have no idea when they are dressing innapropriately. They know it and I’m sure their husbands are aware also of what they are doing. No Asifa will solve this problem. It’s a Hashkafa problem of girls dressing up for others, or just wanting to be the prettiest girl around, something that they’ve learned it valuable. If the yeshiva world will value middos and tzniyus for its own sake instead of “frummer than thou” status, girls will respond and naturally wear more tzniyus items.

    #1072231

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If the yeshiva world will value middos and tzniyus for its own sake instead of “frummer than thou” status, girls will respond and naturally wear more tzniyus items.

    From my perspective, the “yeshiva world” (which admittedly has no precise definition) does value middos and tzniyus, and the girls in large part do dress and act more b’tznius.

    Of course, there’s an element of “no true Scotsman” here, because tznius is very much part of the culture we call “yeshivish”.

    #1072232

    Trying
    Participant

    There is a famous teshuva of Rav Yaakov Emdin Z”l specifically permitting a sheitel proving that it is covered – at least partially.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1408&st=&pgnum=36

    In fact, a talmid of his wrote back trying to get him to clarify or retract his p’sak and there is another tshuva later on to this talmid where he reiterates again clearly that it is permitted just like a piece of jewelry.

    You might also want to enter a search for “Peah Nachris here: http://hebrewbooks.org/advanced.aspx

    That’s a lot of material…

    #1072233

    Bookworm120
    Participant

    Would you say the cap is made of silk?

    #1072234

    Bookworm120
    Participant

    Wouldn’t have no other kind but silk.

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