- This topic has 32 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 7 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
this is disturbing me greatly…
everyone is so busy with the 4 inches for ladies and torah lerning for men….. in order to bring the geula..
1.but mitzrayim, they were taken out because they didnt change their language. so why is it acceptable for such profanity to come out of jewish peoples mouths? why do regular yeshiva boys feel free to say what the heck and freakin the whole day? and these are the best of them i am sure you do not need me to demonstrate…
2. the bhmk was destroyed because of sinas chinam…. so focus on the brotherly love, on the being warm to evryone, lending a hand where needed….
so many tragedies can be averted if we only open our eyes and increase our awareness of our surroundings.
Ikno
Improper speech is also a product of lack of tznius and pruztkeit. Its a type of looseness. Additionally it also says we were taken out of mitzrayim in the zchus of nashim tzidkaniyos and in our times as well the midrash says we will be redeemed in the zchus of nashim tzidkaniyos. By the way you can still love someone and hate their actions.
… I cannot seriously believe that someone blamed boys potentially cursing on women not dressing Tzniusly. Wow.
Sam2
….A lack of Kadusha in the mind brings a lack of kadusha in the mouth.
I will tell you why I am incensed at this claim. It’s not because it’s demeaning (which, if it’s true, it isn’t). It’s because it shows a terrible, terrible mindset. It shows an outlook of, “It’s not my fault.” I never could possibly have done something wrong. If something inappropriate or Assur occurred with my body (speaking improperly, Chillul Shabbos, anything), it’s because someone else did something wrong. It can’t be that I am at fault. It must have been because of some other person. That is a terrible attitude that causes one to sink deeper and deeper into improper behaviors because it shows an inability to stand up to what you did wrong.
The proper responses could have been along the lines of that there’s nothing wrong with these words nowadays. Or that Ein Hachi Nami, speech becomes loose sometimes and presumably real B’nei Torah are working very strongly on fixing it. Not, “It’s not their fault; there are people doing Aveiros in this world that causes those words to come out of their mouths.”
Maybe it’s the other way around… maybe pritzus and lack of tznius is a result of improper speech…
Sam2
Yerushalmi Terumoth (ch. 1):
??? ???? ?? ???? ??? (????? ??): ???? ????? ?? – ????? – ??
Also, see Mesilat Yesharim (ch. 11) about the severity of this sin, where he brings this and other sources.
Found this on stack exchange.
I am not blaming anything on tznius all I’m saying is that looking at things you shouldn’t leads you to have shmutz in your head and it tends to come out of your mouth.
I was referring to WIY’s post.
lkno: I don’t think he was talking to you.
WIY: Right, that is equating improper speech to improper dress. Not stating a cause-and-effect. I will not deny that someone who looks at inappropriate things is also more likely to say inappropriate things. I’m just saying that blame the inappropriate speech on the person saying it, not anyone else.
??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????
Simple ‘curse words’ are not nivul peh. They are not lashon nekiyah, but they aren’t nivul peh.
.. I cannot seriously believe that someone blamed boys potentially cursing on women not dressing Tzniusly. Wow. “
Interesting – that is not how I interpreted WIY’s statment. I got the direct impression that it is a lack of tznius on the part of the BOYS (having nothing to do with girls, but simply a matter of the boys lacking in personal eidelkeit), a chisaron in THEM, that allows them to use prutzadig language. I never heard my father O”H or either of my brothers or my husband use foul language. I have rarely heard yeshivah bochurim do so, either, but if they do, it is on THEM and no one else.
Dubya and iknow: There are very few Mekoros that mention what Nivul Peh is. Inappropriate speech, as Yitay mentions, is obvious. Many people take it as a Davar Pashut that curse words also are, but there are no real Mekoros either way about them (though I feel that the Tochachah is probably a good Ra’aya that it includes curse words).
“What the heck” and “freakin” are considered profanity now? Really??
jewishfem: I do consider those words profanity, just a milder form. They’re still profanity and I personally don’t feel comfortable with them.
lkno: That’s not going to convince her when she doesn’t think they’re profanity at all.
I don’t know for sure that I do either- actually, I personally have not such a problem with “what the heck” but I try not to say “freaking.” Actually, I try not to say either, because words like those are crutches- they end up overused and by the time one’s done speaking one hasn’t actually SAID anything of substance. Also, they tend to be conducive to certain situations- not only am I more likely to say a word like “freaking” when I’m upset, but it almost makes me MORE upset because that’s the context of the word in general. Sort of like how thinking of raindrops and roses and cute little kittens makes people feel happy (even if they, like me, don’t like cats).
But I DON’T think they’re curse words. In fact, I think they’re quite blatantly NOT curse words because in the popular context, which, as I’ve said multiple times here, is the REAL dictionary of words, they are perceived as absolutely not being curse words. Perhaps they’re seen as one’s trying to sidestep the issue (even that I’m not sure of as they’ve sort of morphed into their own personal identities), but they’re not even CLOSE to being seen as curse words.
If that’s something you don’t want to be seen as doing, then kol hakavod. But IMO, calling it “nivul peh” or “cursing” is a trifle much (especially when I started reading the OP and I was under the impression that she was talking about kids using words that get bleeped out on TV). It’s a sensitivity issue, but those who aren’t quite that sensitive aren’t doing anything WRONG.
WIY: There isn’t a curse word dictionary written on women’s knees. Any correlation between the two would seem to come exclusively from the guy’s side.
Profanity or not, it’s definitely offensive coming from a Yeshiva Bochur. Or Bais Yaakov girl for that matter.
I think “freaking” may be…well…disrespectful is the first word that comes to mind, although I’m not sure it’s quite what I mean. I don’t like it when people say “freaking”. But I definitely do not consider it profanity. And I think “what the heck” is perfectly acceptable.
For those who believe “what the heck” is profanity, how do you feel about more old-fashioned expressions– for instance, “what in tarnation” or “what on earth”? They mean the same thing and are used in the same way.
There is a famous story with rav Pam that his Talmudic wanted to know if the word “heck” is bad, so they asked him if it’s ok to say words that could be bad etc (they were beating around the bush) and he responded “You mean like fress? No you should try not to say it.”
What is “fress”?
Also– “his Talmudic wanted to know”…??
TN is AT: Great story. Still chuckling
Fress means to eat like a glutton.
“What the heck” and “freakin” are considered profanity now? Really?? “
I don’t consider them to be profanity – BUT – they clearly stand for words that ARE considered to be profanity (and sound very similar to those words), or if not actual profanity, vulgarity at the least. 50 years ago, kids would not have been able to say “freakin,” without an adult wanting to wash their mouths out with soap. The fact that it is in such common usage by otherwise respectful people, shows how desensitized and accepting we have become to ALL manner of foul language.
Although we may know better, I believe that there are those (especially young people) who do not know the more vulgar versions of “heck” and “freakin”. When I was a child, I was very fond of a card game I knew as “B.S.”, and I was playing it at my friend’s house when her mother came over to us and said “B.S. stands for something not so nice, so let’s call the game ‘I Doubt It’ instead.” I wondered and wondered what B.S. stood for and didn’t find out for years.
A fresser is a big eater in Yiddish. Like someone who can eat a plate of cholent and kugel at shul kiddush, and then go home and eat a seuda there. One thing I’ve been trying hard in the new year to do is reduce nivul peh; I’ve been told that some things I say, particularly words beginning with c or t, are the epitome of classlessness. Lips are a very powerful thing for Jews, and speech must reflect what we want to truly reside within the heart and neshama.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.