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in be’or teffilla many years ago, i learned that the 18 original brachos of the amida are k’neged the 18 bones of the spine, and the raa’ya for the 19th bracha is the little bone at the end of the spine. k fine.
10 years later i’m studying for a quiz on basic a&p of the central nervous system and my book says that 7 cervical bones + 12 thoracic + 5 sacral bones which compose the spinal column. which equals 24 plus the coccyx.
anyone have a good lamdishe answer to settle the two?
I have no idea, but according to this, if I daven the amidah with a lot of kavanah, will my spine “straighten”? I have kyphosis (NOT scoliosis!) and I need surgery! Maybe I should try this!
The part of the back the thoracic and lumber vertebrates which makes up the back is 18.
anyone have a good lamdishe answer to settle the two?
What’s to settle? Chazal said there are 18 bones in the spine and that’s it. Whatever you “learned” in anatomy class is obviously wrong and to be disregarded*. If Chazal say there are 18 bones, then they are to believed and all the so-called doctors are to be ignored.
The Wolf
* Although, for your exam, I suggest you answer “l’shitosom.”
You forgot Lumbar. If you exlude Cervical and count Sacral and Coccygeal as being 1 each, you can get to 18 or 19.
Btw some people have 8 cervicals. I do.
saying shemona esra with kavona, can only help. I guaranty you it can’t harm.
also to the op: I have never heard of what you said but if chazal say there are 18/19 spinal “bones” there are, and its obvious the doctors are including parts not part of the spine
Ever heard of pie?
Just a wild guess –
“7 cervical bones + 12 thoracic + 5 sacral bones which compose the spinal column. which equals 24 plus the coccyx”
Now take out the cervicals:
“12 thoracic + 5 sacral bones which compose the spinal column. which equals 17 plus the coccyx”
And we have 18.
Now the only problem is the border between the cervical and thoracic vertebrae isn’t all that clear… and I doubt in ‘those times’ they knew/made that difference.
It’s actually 7 cervical + 12 thoracic + 5 lumbar (you missed those). The 5 sacral vertebrae are fused into the sacrum in adulthood, so you might count that as one bone. The coccyx is also made of several rudimentary vertebrae, which are generally fused in adulthood.
So it’s at least 24 + 1 sacrum + 1 coccyx = 26, and possibly over 30 if you count the sacral and coccygeal vertebrae separately.
Well Yent, what you bring up is (IMHO) a major issue I have with “magic” Yiddishkeit. My personal feeling on the matter is that many many years ago when some of these things were written (this is my whole premise on the start of chassidism) the knowledge of the average shlep was nil. And we were pretty much all shleps. There is a reason those times were called the dark ages. Your average Jew was in serious danger of no longer following/knowing/observing torah and halachah. So a new method of keeping the faith was made. A focus on the mystical, ethereal Judaism. I believe that in an effort to stem the tide, a conscious effort was made on the part of the gedolim to adapt and teach what they could to keep people observant. Kabbalah. Mysticism. Segulahs. All of that combined in all likeleyhood saved the Jewish people of that time. Because even if you couldn’t teach the masses the actual in depth halachos of shabbos, you could interest them and dazzle them with loft thoughts that “must” be kept in mind during Kiddush. There are other things, too many to mention that are not “core” judaism, but were enacted as a way of riding out some rough times by glamorizing the observance and thus skirting the almost impossible task of educating an entire nation. Lets face it, the Middle ages was a rough time to be a Jew.
So when i find someting like you did, I really don’t give it much thought. I do not suspect that a “mistake” was made. Rather, a calculated misdirection was employed. After all, its som much simpler and more convincing to tell a guy “you should daven everyday because each brachah represents a part of your spine” than it is to say you should daven beacuse we are repleacing a service that was done by our priests in a temple 2000 years ago but was destroyed, so some old folks decided that words would be enough and we now have to say it 3 times a day….and on and on and onnn……. You will lose that person in a heartbeat.
Ctrl Alt Del,
I think I saw the reference to the 18 brachos of Shemoneh Esrei corresponding to the 18 bones in the spine brought in the Gemara (4th perek of Brachos), which would not make it some middle ages mystical thought to have. As I recall, the reference to the spine was brought in a discussion of how to bow during Shemoneh Esrei (if physically capable, one should bow deeply enough so that the bones of the spine in your back protruded).
Now, I doubt that the Tanaaim were unfamiliar with the human spine. How they were counting was likely different than how we count today (perhaps they didn’t count the portion of the spine in the neck as part of the 18, for example, since we were talking about the position of the back when bowing). I’m not an expert on anatomy.
KeenObserver,
It’s actually 7 cervical + 12 thoracic + 5 lumbar (you missed those). The 5 sacral vertebrae are fused into the sacrum in adulthood, so you might count that as one bone. The coccyx is also made of several rudimentary vertebrae, which are generally fused in adulthood.
So it’s at least 24 + 1 sacrum + 1 coccyx = 26, and possibly over 30 if you count the sacral and coccygeal vertebrae separately.
From a picture on Wikipedia, it looks to me like the 7 cervical vertebrae are in the neck/by the skull (i.e., not in the back). That would leave the 12 thoracic and 5 lumbar and the sacrum/coccyx in the back… which would add up to 19 (18 if the tailbone was not considered to be in the back). Perhaps this is how our sages were counting?
I would guess that the “spine” that they are referring to is the thoracic, lumbar and sacral bones, which would be 12 + 5 + 1 = 18.
The distinction between where the cervical spine ends and the thoracic spine finishes is of little to no importance because there are always only 12 thoracic vertebrae, but there can be an additional cervical spine vertebra. There are people who have six lumbar vertebrae and those whose sacrum is fused to the last lumbar vertebra, but those are exceptions to the rule. So I think the cervical spine is the neck and the spine is the rest. The coccyx, while technically a vertebra(e) is not necessarily part of the “spine”.
I don’t think you have to assume that a mistake was made because we “didn’t know much back in those days”. Chazal really knew everything, but on our level we have a hard time figuring out what they meant, so even though we seemingly know a lot, we probably have to know more details now because of our low level of understanding so things have to be clearer for us.
The gemara in Taanis discusses the shemoneh esrei which is expanded to 24 brachos in cases of communal threats (such as famine) and details the text of all the additional brachos, so perhaps there is no need at all to adapt Chazal to medical knowledge just marvel at the reality, Torah came from the Maker!
Meh… count this vertebra, disregard those vertebra, count these fused bones as one, count those as multiples… it’s all arbitrary and post-hoc explanatory at best. Much simpler and better to say Chazal was right, we only have 18 bones in the spine and all the anatomy books are, perforce, wrong. Do *you* believe some anatomy book over Chazal?
The Wolf
This is a Gemara in Brachos (I don’t remember the Daf) and the Artscroll commentary there deals with possible discrepancies and different opinions about which bones to count.
Keep in mind that the Gemara is talking about the bumps of the spine, not its make-up.
The Gemara says that the 39 Melachos are learned from the 39 times that the word Melacha shows up in the Torah. The Gemara then asks about the word Melacha that appears by Yosef. Then the Gemara says, why don’t you simply count it up and see if you get 39 without it. Well, the Gemara says, there is also another Melacha in question — Vehamelacha Haysa Dayam — and we don’t know which one to count. By Yoseph it might not mean work, and by the Mishkan it might mean the product, rather than the work.
What we see here is that if not for the question that the Gemara had about which one not to include, the Gemara would never have mentioned why that Melacha is different. We would have been asking how come there are more than 39 appearances of the word Melacha. Some Meforshim would take certain ones out of the count and WolfishMusings would have laughed at them.
Chazal say that Yetzias Mitzraim is mentioned fifty times in the Torah. If you count it you can find almost double. There are a few Peshatim about which ones to count, but the main point is that Divrei Chazal have to be learned and studied and understood after toiling over their holy words.
The Gemara in Shabbos quotes Reb Yochanan that you may not say Torah unless you are completely sure that it is the case. He punished a Talmud for not accepting a Drasha that, to us, sounds like out of the hat.
The Maharal says that someone who knows that he is far from the Chachamim is at least on the same track, that he can realize the contrast. However, one who takes their words lightly and thinks he can critique the Chachamim is not on the same track. He doesn’t begin to understand the framework.
and WolfishMusings would have laughed at them.
Who is laughing?
I can’t seem to win.
When I recommend that Chazal ought not to be taken at 100% face value when their observations are found to be in conflict with modern science I catch grief. And now that I say “go with Chazal and forget about modern science” I’m catching grief again by being accused of “laughing at Chazal.”
I just can’t win. So fine, what do I know? It’s obvious that my wickedness and evil nature will prevent me from ever doing anything right. I guess I’m just doomed to continue doing evil no matter which approach I take.
The Wolf
ctrl alt del:
Although I respect your “G-d given” right to an opinion, I have to say, yours is the scariest post I’ve seen here in a long time. Unless I am misunderstanding,you are suggesting that Tannaim and Amoraim all the way down through the ages until today fabricated (read: lied) an entire body of literature called kabballah that is beyond the ability of the “average schlep” to understand. Then they enacted various decrees against it being taught to the “average schlep” (ie., only to one student at a time, he has to be wise, only the main topics, only after having satiated himself on shas and poskim etc).
All of this would serve to keep that same “average schlep” frum. Did I misunderstand you somehow?
My rebbe said that it’s the 18 bones in the spine that show when you bend during shemonah esrei.
Avram, my point is valid either way. Iss shver tzuzein a yid back then too. I agree with wolf. And in truth, I don’t have a problem with saying that chazal were wrong if made mistakes about things. I just move on. Yes, they didn’t have x-rays back then so they did the best they could. This deoesnt mean i am abandoning everything they say. Wolf, im joining you in hell.
.
Wolf, im joining you in hell.
Please don’t joke about that. I wasn’t joking.
The Wolf
Wolf = Poe (for some)
Thats all. 🙂
After reading some of these posts I can’t stop wondering why this thread is still un-closed.
After all some of the posters are commenting things which are Kefira, at least in the eyes of the yeshivish world.
And yes, I studied advanced A&P.
After all some of the posters are commenting things which are Kefira, at least in the eyes of the yeshivish world.
Saying that Chazal were right is Kefirah??!!
Man, I *really* can’t do anything right, can I? I ought to just give up and cash it in now.
The Wolf
WolfishMusings,
Saying that Chazal were right is Kefirah??!!
Man, I *really* can’t do anything right, can I? I ought to just give up and cash it in now.
And why do you presume that 2scents was referring to you?
It seems to me that you want people on this site to call you a kofer. Why is that?
And why do you presume that 2scents was referring to you?
Force of habit. When someone says “kofer” (or any other variation of the word) the first thought is me.
Granted, it’s possible that 2cents was not referring to me.
The Wolf
DH: I think he was only referring to the later Kabbalah movement (13th-17th centuries and continued by Chassidus). I would be shocked if he was referring to anything in the Gemara and if he was then his opinion should just be entirely discounted anyway.
Ctrl Alt Del,
Avram, my point is valid either way.
I’m not sure about that. You posited that our sages brought the 18 vertebrae of the spine as a motivator to the stupid masses for davening Shemoneh Esrei – but it was not meant as a motivator at all, just a connection (or an explanation of bowing during the Shemoneh Esrei). Nothing was said to the effect of, “you should daven all 18 brachos because they represent your spine…” That’s a straw man you made up.
Iss shver tzuzein a yid back then too.
Actually, I disagree with this premise too. Literacy rates for Jews was quite high, certainly much higher than in the surrounding populace. In places like Vilna even the simple Jews were engaged in learning. This is not to say that there have been periods and places where education suffered tremendously, but I would think that someone learning Gemara (where you would come across this vertebrae reference) was not a “schlep”, especially since, a few pages before the vertebrae reference, the Gemara discusses the very reasons for our tefillos (in place of the korbonos) that you claim the schlep couldn’t understand.
Yes, they didn’t have x-rays back then so they did the best they could.
I think it’s incorrect to assume that the slope of technological and scientific advancement with time was always positive (e.g., the further back in time, the more ignorant). During the time of the Gemara, batteries were in use across the Middle East. The Romans had indoor plumbing. Egyptians practiced surgery. The period right after the Middle Ages was called the Renaissance, meaning a revival, because a lot of the advancements came through rediscovery of things the ancients knew but were subsequently forgotten. I think it’s quite reasonable to assume that the sages of the gemara knew what a human spine looked like – and that we are simply unfamiliar with their particular method of categorization.
And Reb Yochanan punished his Talmud for fun, or to motivate everybody else? Yeah, I know your answer: the Gemara l..d about that, too. R”L.
By the way, think about how silly this famous booster theory, promulgated by Haskala, really is. The Baal Shem Tov came around to boost the spirits of the masses after Tach V’tat. That is equivalent to saying that Reb Amnon Yitzchak is just trying to make people forget about their Tzaros from World War One.
Rav Hai Gaon, the Raavads, the Ramban, Rashba, Rabbeinu Bachya, Ramak, and Arizal, who taught deep secrets and refused to reveal them at large, were merely trying to say, “hey guys, wazzup!”
Why don’t you listen to the rest of the story from those who share these views? When the Hebrews left Egypt, through the intervention of a charismatic man, they needed an identity, so…
Why in the world would they need an x-ray to know haw many bones there are in the back. Do you really think they couldn’t examine a skeleton if they wanted.
In addition, the Gemara Berachos (28b) is obviously only referring to vertebrae that bend while bowing properly. I am sure that if one were to examine which vertebrae bend while bowing the number will be 18. It never says that there are only 18 vertebrae.
Good answer. Wolf, this time I’m on the other side. When something is easy to determine and chazal says something that appears wrong, you need to figure what chazal meant.
When something is easy to determine and chazal says something that appears wrong,
What are you going to believe? Chazal, or the evidence in front of your eyes?
Rav Uren Riech said (empahsis mine):
Furthermore, the Rashba says (regarding terifos) that if someone comes up to you and tells you that he knows of a cow that lived more than 12 months with one of the simanei treifah that you should not believe him.
So, again, I ask you, who are you going to believe? Chazal when they say that man has 18 bones in his spine, or the “doctors” who say otherwise?
The Wolf
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