Shidduch Crisis, Daas Torah and Hishtadlos

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  • #634692

    shkoyach
    Member

    One more thing… for all those of you that want to see ppl married so you give advice like keep going out or ignore your feelings its not a good reason… you may be the cause of the divorce crisis. I’m sorry to say it, but sometimes Hashem sends us msgs that “no this is not for you” and of course we have to go to Daas Torah, but sometimes it’s cold feet and other times its really not. Be mechabed that and help the person figure out. Dont just unvalidate their feelings altogether.

    time

    I will admit, sometimes, the person does need a good kick in the pants to go thru with it but be sensitive and understanding that dating is a confusing time for many and you need to clarify if there is an anxiety.

    #634693

    tal
    Member

    SJS, I think you may be convincing yourself that Rabbanim respond in matters they feel they are unqualified. In regards to the ear infection, the rav will say go to the doctor because he is an anav and not like the rest of us who feel we can make decisions based on nothing. We feel we are chachamim today because we know medicine or stock markets or whatever your field is however we are exactly the opposite. However, if they feel they are qualified to speak about this shidduch, they 100% should because they know emes. Never doubt a work spoken by a talmid chacham you have choosen as your rav or else you have not placed all your confidences in him and aseh licha rav has not been completed. And those that don’t properly trust rabanim cannot properly trust Hashem. (I’m not infering anything just making a general statement.) Rabbanim will also rarly say drop the shidduch unless the feel there is an extreme nesecity; rather, they will speak to you until you have come to a firm desicion as I know from experience.

    Rabbanim don’t speak when they are not certain. The problem is we do and therefore believe the rabbanim are like us. We speak divrei leitzanut while they speak emet and that is just the way it is though they’d never agree.

    #634694

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    oomis1105:

    The rav can tell her she is a Moredes if she does not go to him. Then it is her choice to go or not. She is assur for the man if he has intent to divorce (she does not enable the divorce, so her intent is not relevant).

    Remember the “my Rabbi is a Rat” case? Its a similar issue on the Halachic side. She had a choice, but there are consequences from that choice.

    (not to say its a good thing, but we are discussing from a strictly halachic standpoint)

    #634695

    squeak
    Participant

    SJS, there are different ways to ask a Rov. One way is, as you said, to ask for an Eitzah. When you do that, you are not bound to follow what the Rov says. There are some people who are able to be mevatel daas to the Daas Torah and will follow the Rov’s advice to the letter without questioning. This is a high level to reach and those who live this way are not harmed by it (quite the opposite, in fact). I wish I could be that way for everything.

    Your last statement is utterly bogus and shows a lack of respect for Chachomim. In the example you gave, (if I was on the level I described above) I would accept the Rov’s decision on which antibiotic. And since I have emunas Chachomim, I would KNOW that the Rov is only telling me this because he knows what he is talking about. Otherwise, he would have recommended a physician I should go to for advice.

    You may or may not believe this, but I personally DO take extensive medical advice from a certain Rov. At first, I didn’t tell the doctor about this, but when I eventually did the doctor told me that he knows this Rov very well (because many others who go to him take the Rov’s advice also) and that he learned a thing or two from the Rov. I assure you that in the case of a contradiction I would blindly the Rov’s decision. Ironically, the only time I was so to speak led astray was the time when the Rov told me he didn’t know the situation well enough and I should follow the doctor’s advice.

    #634696

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    squeak:

    Goes back to one of our main questions in the coffeeroom:

    Who knows better, the expert who knows the case and has studied the field or the Rav who does not?

    Now, if the Gadol has Ruach Hakodesh helping him, the answer is obvious. But who says the specific person you ask does?

    Thats why the “Chazon Ish” example is somewhat off. The Chazon Ish is someone who we can not comprehend who he was and his connection to Hashem. Similar for Rav Elyashiv.

    But stam a Rov?

    In your case, the Rav is knowledgable and is willing to admit he doesn’t know in some cases, I agree with you 100%, as he is an “expert” as well, with the advantage of looking at the case with a Torah perspective.

    The equivilent would be to ask a Kashrus expert a Choshen Mishpat question. Would he send you to a Choshen Mishpat expert (as my Rav has done for some of my questions) or try to answer based on his non-expert knowledge?

    #634697

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Never doubt a work spoken by a talmid chacham you have choosen as your rav or else you have not placed all your confidences in him and aseh licha rav has not been completed. And those that don’t properly trust rabanim cannot properly trust Hashem.

    Tal, this is false. You have to be on the lookout to make sure that your Rav is always true to Torah. Shabtai Tzvi led many people astray. Yes, he was a rare case, but ultimately YOU are responsible for yourself. If you find that your Rav is possibly veering away from halacha (and lets say in an extreme example says shrimp is kosher), you have to find out whats going on. Rabbonim are human – most of them are absolutely wonderful and follow halacha, but some can go astray. Trusting Hashem implicitely is very different from trusting a human being (albeit one on a higher spiritual madrega).

    Rabbanim don’t speak when they are not certain. The problem is we do and therefore believe the rabbanim are like us. We speak divrei leitzanut while they speak emet and that is just the way it is though they’d never agree.

    I don’t think this statement is accurate. It would be hard to verify though. While they might be much better at this than most of us, they are still human and have faults the way the rest of us do. And, if we transmit the information poorly, they won’t neccesarily understand the situation properly and give bad information. Its not that they are wrong, but ultimately, you would have followed their advice which could have been disasterous.

    there are different ways to ask a Rov. One way is, as you said, to ask for an Eitzah. When you do that, you are not bound to follow what the Rov says.

    You say EITZAH, I said ADVICE. I never said don’t ask, but I did say that YOU have to make the decision and that YOU are the one who lives with it. Is your Rav looking out for what’s best? YES. Does this mean he cannot be wrong? NO.

    Also, my childhood Rav happens to be a doctor as well. So in that case, I could trust him if I asked him about antibiotics. But I wouldn’t ask the Rav of my shul right now because other than being a parent himself (and thus presumably having lots of ear infection experience), he is not an expert in the field. If I had a halachic medical question, then of course I would turn to my Rav. There is a great distinction.

    I think GAW also had some great points.

    #634698

    tal
    Member

    SJS, I’ll respond to both posts in one place for simplification purposes and because I have a final in a few hours.

    First I’ll address the other post as it was written quite a while ago: I used the word probable because for me to have reached a false conclusion was improbable not impossible. But, in any case, you proved my statment yourself. As you are not like most girls, you are able to stand up for yourself. I commend you for your strength but as you said most girls do not have this courage. So, we have to deal realisticaly. As the shadchanim and parents know they are pushing for direct and immediate answers, they should stop because the girls are to weak and they are being harmed by those responsible for their welfare.

    Second post: First point: If your rav is a true yirei elokim, such an instance would not occur. Shabti Tzvi appeared as such but in retrospect he was not. Multiple rabbanim of his dor were against him. Additionally, because your rav learns, you are not exempt. You must learn to know if your rav is a rav. Does he follow Torah or not because the moment he tells you something that is an obvious chet there is something amiss? This is hard to discern but completly possible. Human beings are the model relationship for our relationship with Hashem. If we can’t even trust those we love such as our families and rabbanim than we live our lives suspicious of others and we are not trusting Hashem. The key to ben adam limakom is ben adam lichavero.

    Second Point: Your response proves you do not know my rabanim. I cannot think of my rabanim engaging in pointless conversation or anything else. If we sit around saying our rabanim are only human what are we? Do you know the chazal, “If our rabanim are milachim then we are men but if they are men then we are like donkeys.” Someone can correct me as I cannot remember the exact words of chazal.

    Third Point: My rabanim are not wrong. Those that are, are not the ones that have sufficiantly proven themselves as yarei elokim and talmedie chachamim.

    I think this was intended as a PS: As I said, a rav who is a yarei elokim would tell you to see a doctor. Those that would write a Rx probably are not true rabbanim as they are not anavim. A close friend of my father’s who is a rav calls my father to better understand medical situations before making desicions, confering with him. He just does not say yes or no based on a lack of knowledge because he is a rav.

    #634699

    Joseph
    Participant

    gavra:

    You said: Who knows better, the expert who knows the case and has studied the field or the Rav who does not?

    tal already answered this point of yours, prior to your comment: SJS, I think you may be convincing yourself that Rabbanim respond in matters they feel they are unqualified… Rabbanim don’t speak when they are not certain… and see tal’s entire comment above.)

    You said: The rav can tell her she is a Moredes if she does not go to him. Then it is her choice to go or not.

    No, its not a matter of choice. If she is a moredes, she is obligated to take corrective action to ensure she is no longer moredes. (If she fails to, there are consequences. But she was still obligated to stop being a moredes.)

    #634700

    Joseph
    Participant

    gavra:

    You said: Who knows better, the expert who knows the case and has studied the field or the Rav who does not?

    tal already answered this point of yours, prior to your comment: SJS, I think you may be convincing yourself that Rabbanim respond in matters they feel they are unqualified… Rabbanim don’t speak when they are not certain… and see tal’s entire comment above.)

    You said: The rav can tell her she is a Moredes if she does not go to him. Then it is her choice to go or not.

    No, its not a matter of choice. If she is a moredes, she is obligated to take corrective action to ensure she is no longer moredes. (If she fails to, there are consequences. But she was still obligated to stop being a moredes.)

    tal:

    #634701

    squeak
    Participant

    SJS, what does Eitzah mean if not advice?

    GAW: No matter what, having my Rov’s advice is more valuable than not. I can decide before I ask him how much I will be bound by what he says, and his answer may differ based on my approach. But I already know that for most things, if he has something to say about it I will listen.

    #634702

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    squeak: agreed. Just note as below, you must know your Rav.

    Joseph: Can you give me a Mekor that it is Assur to be a Moredes (not “it is bad, but you are oyver the issur of…”, and not that you are stam not fulfilling your shibudim). There may be one, I just can’t think of it off the top of my head.

    Also B”H from my Rov I have seen (as I stated from my Rov above), you are correct that they will defer, but I will not make a blanket statement about rabbonim that I don’t know. You have to pick a good Rov.

    #634703

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Squeak, I was just pointing out that regarding advice, we were both sort of saying the same thing.

    So, we have to deal realisticaly. As the shadchanim and parents know they are pushing for direct and immediate answers, they should stop because the girls are to weak and they are being harmed by those responsible for their welfare.

    I agree with you about having the pressure stopped, but I also think we need to teach young women how to stand up for themselves. This is one of the most important decisions they are going to make in life, and if they cannot stand up for themselves at this junction, how are they going to do it for other important things?

    As for your point about rabbonim – I don’t know where you get this idea that rabbonim are infallible. That is NOT a Jewish concept. Even Moshe Rabbenu made mistakes. We are all human, and while our rabbonim may be closer to truth than we are, they still can make mistakes.

    As for rabbonim being against Shabtai Tzvi – many rabbonim were against Chassidus originally! Does that mean Chassidus is anti-halacha? NO. You cannot just use that statement to say well no one is against my Rabbi…

    You are 100% correct that I don’t know who your rabbonim are – I never said I did. And to be honest, my rabbonim have NEVER put me in a situation where I thought they were doing anything that was against halacha or answering a question that they were not qualified for. BUT! That doesn’t mean its not my responsibility to make sure that when they give ADVICE to me, that I think about it and decide if its actually best for me. I am the one who has to live with it.

    I think you need to seperate your responsibilities (ie making sure that you Rav is not slowly veering off the derech or giving you bad advice or overstepping his bounds in an area he has no knowledge…) from your Rav’s responsibility of making sure he is giving you good, solid advice that is within the bounds of halacha and that he has knowledge for. Now, usually both sides do what they should, but I think its naive to say “Just because my Rav gave me some advice means I should take it.”

    My mother was close to her Rav from growing up. She and I had a problem at some point and she consulted him. He gave her advice that would have been absolutely disasterous for us. She did NOT take his advice and everything worked out. Had she taken his advice, it very possibly could have splintered our relationship. So who was right? In this case, not the Rav. This is a rare occurance, and the Rav thought he was acting according to the best interest of all parties involved, but was still WRONG.

    Please understand that I am not talking about getting a halachic psak, which is binding (unless its proven to be against halacha).

    #634704

    Joseph
    Participant

    gavra,

    I’m not understanding your question to me – are you assuming violating ones shibudim are not assur? As you are aware, shibudim means “obligations.”

    And any true Rov will defer when appropriate. One who doesn’t is a faker regardless of the garb he dons. If you can’t trust him not to defer when appropriate, you can’t trust him for Sof Zman Krias Shma.

    #634705

    goofy
    Member

    Dating and marriage have a lot to do with your own feelings, and nobody will ever be able to help you those elements. Any good adviser will tell you that.

    But there are times when you just don’t know –

    “Is this problem going to affect a marriage?”

    “Does it matter that this bothers me?”

    “Does this normally change?”

    “Did I judge properly?”

    I feel bad for the people who boldly trust themselves on these types of decisions. I’ve been badly burnt by trusting advice Rabbonim have given me, but I still go back the same people for advice. Nobody could have done better, and I would be worse off by trusting myself.

    The truth is, in this business, it’s very clear that there is a strong Yad Hashem in everything that happens and everyone needs a sort of Hashgacha to get anywhere. So it would pay to try to follow Daas Torah and Halacha in every step…

    #634706

    squeak
    Participant

    SJS, a good deal depends on how often you follow the Rov’s advice. If you decide pretty much everything on your own, but go to the Rov once or twice a year, I have no doubt that you will not see much seyata d’shmya from it. It’s the people who rely on their Rov for everything that find out how valuable daas torah is.

    Everyone can make mistakes, even Moshe Rabbeinu did. But how many people make as few as he did? The point is that if you think that your mistakes are on the same level as the ones a Rov makes, well, you’re making another mistake 🙂

    As for your comment about Chassidus, I see that you have no idea what Chassidus was like originally, or what the Rabbonim had against it. I never met a Chassid who rolls in the snow, or refuses to learn anything but Mussar all day. Chassidus evolved, and with that evolution it gained acceptance. Lihavdil, do you realize that modern day capitalism is not pure capitalism, as Karl Marx made some very good points in his manifesto. Capitalists decided to adopt some of his ideas in order to keep the workers from throwing off their chains. Aren’t you glad that you don’t have to work 14 hours per day and live in a hovel?

    #634707

    tal
    Member

    Just a few clarifications, again addressing point by point:

    #634708

    Joseph
    Participant

    squeak – when is it that you are referring that it is a person’s option whether or not to accept what a Rav states as merely a suggestion or binding? And are you implying that the Chasidim of the Baal Shem rolled in snow and only learnt mussar all day (and that it only evolved otherwise later)?

    #634709

    Joseph
    Participant

    squeak – re: your comments of the rolling in snow and mussar, I do believe you are referencing what they did in Novardok — which is of fairly recent vintage i.e early 1900’s — and the Alter of Navardok was a talmid of Rav Yisrael Salanter and the mussar movement. I’m not sure how you are fitting that into Chasidus.

    #634710

    squeak
    Participant

    Joseph, I’m referring to Shaar Daled of Nefesh Hachayim.

    #634711

    Joseph
    Participant

    squeak – can you please elucidate that with more details?

    Your description of rolling in the snow for mussar purposes fits in with what the Alter of Novardok had his talmidim do – they rolled around in the snow and layed down in graves, “al derech mussar”.

    Which Chasidim did similar? And what were the original misnagdim’s taaina on the Chasidim? And was that taaina applicable to the original talmidim of the Baal Shem?

    #634712

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joseph:

    Agreed, but I will not vouch for anyone’s Rav that they are not a faker (as we have seen happen, but will not discuss). As I said, you must know your rav.

    The shibudim are not as big of an issue as you may think since she can be Noder to get around the shibudim. (e.g. Nedarim 15b)

    #634713

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Squeak, my mother does consult her Rav quite a bit. He has always given great advice to her – in this case, he was wrong. Had she followed his advice, at best, my relationship with my mother would be strained and at worst we would have no relationship anymore. I am thankful that she took his advice, thought about it, and realized that this was wrong. And no, she didn’t “throw the baby out with the bathwater” and would still consult him. She still trusts him. But advice is that – it should be thought through before deciding whether or not to follow.

    As for chassidus – yes, it evolved. Every part of our religion has evolved over the years. I’m too lazy to keep debating this point though, because its so far off from the point. We can start a new thread if you like.

    I honestly don’t think I am anything close to a person who has a lot of gaavah (eh, I have a large dose of chutzpah sometimes). I DO NOT think I am better or smarter or more knowledgable than rabbonim. If something seems wrong though, I think its my responsibility to make sure that it is correct. If I am given a halachic psak that seems off to me, I would go to a different Rav to find out how to proceed – maybe have him check it out for me or something. I am NOT saying to pasken for yourself.

    When it comes to advice though, you may want to ask your Rav what he thinks. Does he think you should blindly follow his advice? He might tell you that its only advice and that you have to make sure its 100% applicable to the situation. I really recommend you do disucss this with your Rav to get his opinion.

    I honestly hope that you never get a bad piece of advice that you follow blindly, because it may shake your foundation of trust in your Rav. After all, if you think you have to follow his advice without thinking about it and he was wrong, what else could he be wrong about?

    As for my situation – the Rav did everything right – he spoke to both of us, understood the situation etc etc. He explained his reasoning to my mother. And guess what, he was wrong. That happens – its ok that it happens. But thats why he gave advice and not a psak.

    #634714

    squeak
    Participant

    Joseph, are you trying to tell me that you don’t own a nefesh hachayim? You can always obtain the electronic version online.

    #634715

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I see that the issue of ‘daas torah’ rears its head every time. The posters who know me will know what my view is about this but I was truly astounded to read ‘tal’s words.

    “My rabbonim are not wrong” she writes. NEVER???? Even Moshe rabbeinu was wrong at times…

    “if you are true yrei elokim, it would not occur”. You mean to tell me that a Rov- or Godol, for that matter” never had a “takoloh’ ( failure) in his life???

    To insist that the above two statements are truesmacks of another religion , not Judaism…..

    And,BTW, many Gedolim supported Shabtai Zvi- did they not make a mistake? How about rabbi Akiva and Bar kochba?

    My point in these forii has always been that we are all human-yes, human,tal- and only the Almighty is infallible. BTW- the gemoro that you quote has nothing to do with our discussion, It deals with the power of prayer and that the previous generations were alwyas better than us- a statement that I readily concur with.

    Lastly, there are many rebbes (and the Chazon ish)who gave medical advice. I am pretty usre they were “anavim”.

    Methinks- tal- that you are still ab it young!

    #634716

    Joseph
    Participant

    squeak, I just asked for the favor of a larger synopsis 🙂 Do you know it off-hand?

    #634717

    tal
    Member

    SJS, I’ve just returned from a really long day at school w labs, research, and professors. Therefore, forgive me if I come across as harsh. I am absolutly exhausted.

    The argument in this thread is refered to in the language of logic as a fallacy. The conversation is completly circular. We are both repeating statments and therefore it is pointless.

    Anyone here can think of hundreds of instances in tanach where we were punished for judging our judges and multiple chazals stating the way we must approach and consider our rabbanim. My words will be interperted strictly and multiple personal examples will be used as some could possibly think incorrectly as appropriate premises for your conclusion. Your arguments may appear valid however they are neither valid nor sound. Because, after all, tanach can’t be applied to everything in this universe even though torah preceded the world. (The reason for the conclusion I have argued must follow because the torah’s arguments are both valid and sound.)

    Now that this is over, the convesation between squeak and joseph is much more interesting. Do you want to watch that one with me?

    #634718

    Joseph
    Participant

    gavra,

    I’m not sure what a fraudster has to do with your comment of “Who knows better, the expert who knows the case and has studied the field or the Rav who does not?” If you are moida that a fraud who calls himself a Rabbi is nothing but a faker, then one shouldn’t have such a rasha for a “rabbi” on anything. What does that have to do with expert advice, deferring, and/or the Brooklyn Bridge?

    tal’s comment of I think you may be convincing yourself that Rabbanim respond in matters they feel they are unqualified… Rabbanim don’t speak when they are not certain… and the rest of tal’s comment is 100% on the mark.

    #634720

    squeak
    Participant

    Joseph, I am far from comfortable blurbing the words of Harav Chaim Volozhin. Especially in this Shaar. He uses some very powerful words, and I could never repeat them for common distribution (I’m sure you will understand exactly what I mean).

    #634721

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joseph:

    I am sure at this point we are discussing semantics.

    Just be sure your Rav (CV, not yours per say, but in general) is not a faker. Sometimes its too late to tell.

    #634723

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    The argument in this thread is refered to in the language of logic as a fallacy.

    I agree – and think that its on your end. If I am “too far to the left for you,” realize, even squeak (who I usually end up disagreeing with) said that advice is NOT binding.

    Don’t take my word for it – discuss it with YOUR rav. I cannot imagine that a (non-chasidish) Rav would tell you to follow his advice blindly. There is a reason he is offering advice and not a psak.

    Also realize, that while your Rav may give you the right piece of advice at the time, by the time you implement it it may be wrong. Does that mean your Rav is wrong? No, but it might have meant you should have re-evaluated to make sure the advice fit, rather than just follow it blindly.

    I wish you much hatzlacha in your life journey.

    #634724

    JayMatt19
    Participant

    123, that was out of line, check out the coffee room rules. can’t believe that slipped past the mods

    #634725

    tal
    Member

    As ridiculous as responding is, I still want the last word. (People just think I’m older; but, I’m still a kid.)

    All of the Torah is [(forever living in the hearts and minds of) is English we use determine] determined by our chachamim. (All A is B)

    And, the entire world is a constant reflection of Torah. (All C is A)

    And, since A, B and C exist; the world is determined by the chachamim. (All C is B.)

    Proving validity is easy according to the modern logic system. (Easier if I would know enough to understand Torah.) It is sound to because the premises are written in the Torah. There is no rebuttal until the day someone proves one letter in the Torah incorrect. Because that is impossible, the argument stands as fact. Your argument cannot be arranged as such.

    Sometimes, the only way to force acceptance of an opinion is harsh language, which is the reason why we are commanded to put on an angry face for our children.

    #634726

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    tal:

    I have no clue what you are saying, but I assume it means we should follow the non-faker Gedolim?

    If so, I second.

    #634727

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    GAW she is trying to prove that Rabbonim are never wrong.

    You are wrong about my mothers Rav – it was a matter of philisophical differences relating to handling the situation and he was wrong. You can accept it or not, but he was wrong. It doesnt mean he is a bad Rav, just that he gave one bad piece of advice.

    I am not quite sure what you mean by Rabbonim determine reality – if they did, wouldnt they create a system where all men could sit and learn Torah and all women could stay home and raise their kids? That is NOT a reality they can create. That is a reality that HASHEM can create. Rabbonim are human beings and while they are closer to Hashem than we are, they are still human and make mistakes. The Torah tells us this!

    You are also confusing a HALACHIC PSAK and ADVICE/EITZAH. Does squeak sound like someone who is anti-Torah or rabbonim? He agrees that advice DOES NOT HAVE TO BE FOLLOWED.

    Lets look at this simple example: You hear that your Rabbi makes the best cholent. You ask him for advice and he tells you he recommends trying a red onion and adding that to your cholent. You try it but decide that you like your version (frying a vidalia onion) better because its sweeter. You approach your Rabbi and ask him respectfully if he ever thought of using a vidalia onion instead of a red onion. He said he tried it but it made the cholent too sweet. How would you keep making your cholent now?

    Silly example, sure. But where do you draw the line with advice that has to be followed? I do it at a HALACHIC PSAK – that needs to be followed. Advice does not.

    Now lets try another logic argument:

    1) All human beings are flawed (Only Hashem is perfect)

    2) All rabbonim are human

    If 1 and 2 are correct, then all rabbonim are flawed. Now, granted they have LESS flaws than most of us and are much closer to Hashem than most of us, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY DO NOT MAKE MISTAKES.

    Is there a reason you are reluctant to discuss this with your Rabbi?

    You can have the last word when you PROVE ME WRONG or I get bored of this. The latter is more likely as I am already losing interest.

    #634729

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Tal & SJS:

    “GAW she is trying to prove that Rabbonim are never wrong.”

    C”V! Thats why there is a Par He’elam, because the Sanhedrin can be wrong, Kol Sheken our modern-day Gedolim!

    “1) All human beings are flawed (Only Hashem is perfect)

    2) All rabbonim are human”

    Yes, but they normally have a better idea of how things work with a Torah perspective, which is why their advice is helpful (when dealing with serious issues that advice is needed, not on chulent recipies!:).

    Rabbonim do create reality, but that is for a different thread (that may be inapproprate for the coffee room). (Rosh Chodesh & Bas Gimmel) Vhamavin Yovin.

    #634730

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    GAW:

    My rabanim are not wrong. Those that are, are not the ones that have sufficiantly proven themselves as yarei elokim and talmedie chachamim.

    That is a direct quote from Tal and what I have been trying to clarify with her.

    Can we start a new thread about rabbonim creating reality? I am interested and don’t really know anything on that topic. We can try to keep it appropriate.

    #634731

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    SJS:

    I will try to do so, perhaps tomorrow if I have time (unless someone else starts it, Kol Hakavod!)

    #634732

    oomis
    Participant

    I understand where SJS is coming from, and don’t think it is fair to belittle her ideas, whether or not you are in agreement. I don’t have to accept every word that every poster says as being Torah m’Sinai, in order to learn something from those words. Whatever your personal hashkafa, you can reflect on a statement and agree or disagree, and follow your strict religious heart. If that heart tells you you must always do exactly what your LOR tells you, whether or not it is a p’sak, then do so with simcha.

    Our LOR (plural) almost ran a kosher store out of business, and in fact the owner had to sell his business in order not to go bankrupt. His crime – adding a rav hamachsir, who was extremely reliable and makpid on kashrus, in addition to (not instead of) the local hechsher under which the store existed. This did not sit well with the LORs, and they threatened withdrawal of their hechsher, which although regrettable, would still have left the store under an extremely reliable hecher (that was never a question). Then the LOR proceeded to issue a “suggestion” that nobody patronize this store until the store is again under their hashgocha. That is what happened. Most people who follow their rabbonim implicitly, stopped shopping there. Those who continued to do so, explained that there was no question that the store was under the hechsher and hashgocha of an experienced, reliable mumcheh in kashrus, and that the LOR really had no right to be so arbitrary. After all, does it make a difference if I buy an OU product in a kosher store or in a national grocery chain?

    I listened to my rov, but we could see he was extremely uncomfortable with publicly making this “suggestion” to the oilem. So I did not shop at this store until it had changed owners and was once again under the hashgocha of the LOR. I will always feel they were very wrong, especially to cause someone to lose his parnassah, even though he sold the store. it caused the owners great agmas nefesh I am sure. And are there NO stores anywhere that do not have more than one person certifying their kashrus, so that their store is available for any and all Yidden that might want to shop there? Let’s say you only accept KAJ, and someone else only accepts some other certifying vaad. Isn’t it better to have both, so that the KAJ shopper and the Vaad shopper are both satisfied that the store is kosher for their needs?

    #634733

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I understand where SJS is coming from, and don’t think it is fair to belittle her ideas, whether or not you are in agreement.

    Oomis, I didn’t mean to belittle her ideas, I was just trying to point out a flaw in her logic and suggest she talk to her Rav. Was it something specific that made it out to be belittling her or was it the general tone?

    #634734

    Joseph
    Participant

    gavra: “non-faker Gedolim” is an oxymoron.

    #634735

    oomis
    Participant

    Oomis, I didn’t mean to belittle her ideas, I was just trying to point out a flaw in her logic and suggest she talk to her Rav. Was it something specific that made it out to be belittling her or was it the general tone?

    NO, NO, NO, SJS, I was defending YOU!!! I felt that your idea had been belittled. You misunderstood, and I am sorry about that. Obviously I was unclear.

    #634736

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Oomis, thats ok! I misread what you wrote.

    Deleted

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