August 16, 2011 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #598669
I don’t really buy the age argument because while its true that a 23 year old guy can date girls 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 and 23 a 23 year old girl can date guys 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, etc. I think the real problem is that older girls are so busy with school, work and other things and are looking for somebody to conviently already established lives. Its hard to find a guy that “fits into your life” because newly married couples are supposed to build their lives together. It is also a requirement for these girls to work and go to school if they want to support a husband who is learning full time, so the older girls who are not married have done that in anticipation. What you have is a catch 22. I think that the only way this can be solved is by encourging most boys who are not cut out to be the next roshei yeshiva anyways to go to work at 23, 24 or 25 and then these girls wouldn’t be so pressured to go to school and find jobs and can focus on what’s really important- getting married. Only then would there not be as many single girls.August 17, 2011 12:00 am at 12:00 am #799399mommamia22Participant
Being “carreer” minded is the problem . A girl can take a bookkeeping class, go for a two year degree to be an ultrasound technician, work in an office, etc.
A lot of the women that I know were very carreer minded and wanted men who were very accomplished either in learning or in their careers as well. What ever happened to accepting mediocrity for the time being, and leaving room to progress and grow with time?? Starting out living tight and not being scared? We feel such a push to be completely settled, I think that’s what’s hurting us.August 17, 2011 1:20 am at 1:20 am #799400minyan galMember
momma, nobody should have to “settle” and particularly not have to settle for mediocrity. That is no way to start a marriage. Perhaps you meant that they should be prepared to live on a smaller income than in the homes they were raised. That is completely different than mediocrity. If one, or both, of the people making up the new couple are mediocre, they, unlike some fine wines, will not improve with age. One, or both of them, will settle for low paying jobs or he may just take up space at a kollel without learning much – after all, he is mediocre and not much is expected of him. Most marriages like this are bound to fail. A couple should have a very long talk about how they see their future together before the engagement is announced.August 17, 2011 1:44 am at 1:44 am #799401
That’s not the main age argument. The most basic age argument is very simple and cannot be denied. It is as follows:
Each year, more frum/yeshivishe people are born than the year before. This is a fact. So, for argument’s sake, let’s say 1000 such babies were born in 1989, and 1200 were born four years later in 1993. Let’s also assume for argument’s sake that exactly half are boys and half are girls. In the year 2011, the 1200 girls born are ready to go out – they are 18 years old. But who are they going out with? Not their own age, because the boys won’t start going out until they are 22 (let’s say). So they are stuck going out with the boys born in 1989 or earlier, which leaves them 200 short no matter which way you cut it. I haven’t heard of any adequate argument against this simple numbers problem, and it seems like the most basic cause of the “shidduch crisis.”August 17, 2011 4:56 am at 4:56 am #799402mommamia22Participant
I agree with you completely. No one should strive for mediocrity. My point was that we often get caught up in wanting the “package” to be complete beforehand. This is where I think the problems lay. I have cousins who married very young who later went for graduate degrees and doctorates. There’s no reason someone can’t strive to reach their potential and do their best, but I think it’s a mistake to either strive to complete this before marriage or only meet those who have accomplished this beforehand. If someone says being average is enough for them, that may be a red flag. On the other hand, if someone says “I have goals and I strive to accomplish them with time” that’s another story.August 17, 2011 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #799403Lomed Mkol AdamMember
Yitayningwut: We actually agree on something.August 17, 2011 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #799404yungerman1Participant
yitayningwut- My partial solution is to have girls start going out when they turn 21. This will cut down on the population growth discrepancy as they can date boys closer to their age. If all girls did this then 21 will be the norm instead of 19 and no sitgma or boys wanting your girls would exist.
An added benefit will be that these girls will have more time to mature and develop a career for themselves… as well as enjoy a couple of more years with their friends with fewer responsibilities.
Anyone see an issue with this?August 17, 2011 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #799405anon1m0usParticipant
YeshivaBochur:My wife was tired of being set up with bochurim that expected her to support and wanted an established man. My father did not let me date until I graduated college, had a job and was able to support a family. I granulated college when I was 23, also started working in my last semester and met my wife right after. She did not want to wait for “mediocrity” and she got me:):)
mommamia22: Career minded is not the problem. It’s the expectation that the wife needs to support. Some of these girls grew up in learning home and want more for their kids in terms of finances. They want to dress nice and not wear handme downs.
yitayningwut: You still need to include a percentage of girls that do marry boys who are 18. I think we had this calculation topic before. Let’s not get into it again. But according to your numbers, do you suggest boys dating earlier when they are not ready?August 17, 2011 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #799406
So you agree with me, anon? I just think that the way the whole system is now really makes no sense. Sure its geshmak to learn but to expect a girl to be working to be in school and to keep a house a raise a family i think is a little bit much. Boys realize this and thus don’t want to marry an older girl because she is so busy with her school and her job already. Instead they marry younger ones who start all these things after marriage. This too doesn’t really make sense because at the end of the day these women come home and are too tired to deal with their kids and husband. The wife works the husband is in yeshiva so the kids are left in daycare all day or worse with goyish nannies, but this is a whole other topic already.August 17, 2011 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #799407yummy cupcakeMember
yeshivabochur, i hear what you are saying, but first of all, you can’t just have one income, the husband’s, and then say, now the wife doesn’t have to worry about a thing. one income is just not enough these days (sometimes, even two isn’t enough!) now, yes, there are exceptions to this rule, like the very wealthy ppl,or the young couples being supported by their parents (which is a whole different discussion) but you know, i don’t think young couples (not being supported by parents) are part of this exception. i can hear that one income is enough until you have kids.(that is ultimately what I want) but once the kids come, and hopefully, there will be at least a few, you really need the money, and these days, you need both the income of the husband, and that of the wife.
also, what you said about bochurim who are not cut out to be the next roshei yeshiva- i don’t agree. yes, if the bochur is mamash just sitting there and warming benches, and he really doesn’t want to be there, but he is doing it because that’s the thing to do, and it’s the “only way to get a good shidduch”, then he should go to work. but if someone is sincerely sitting and learning, and it means the world to him to be engaged in learning the precious words of the Torah, just because you don’t think he will become the next rosh yeshiva (and how are you supposed to be able to judge that anyway?)why would you rip him away from it? he is not wasting his time! and how do you know he won’t be the next rosh yeshiva? it doesn’t happen overnight! all big roshei yeshiva had to start somewhere. if they would have gone by your advice, we would be minus many of the great gedolim and roshei yeshiva we have today!
now, i think it would work, and make all sides happy, if: boy wants to learn. girl wants husband to learn, at least until they have kids. girl works. boy learns. they have a kid. boy works and definitely sets aside as much time as possible to learn, and keeps aside time, to assist wife in housekeeping and helping take care of kid. girl works (and it is possible to get a job that you can do from home, or you can find a job that only requires you to work half day- and don’t say that it’s not realistic, because i know so many wives who are doing either of these two options) once the kids get older and are all in school, if wife is working out of the house, she can lengthen her working hours, if desired, or if needed. there! now everyone is happy!August 17, 2011 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #799408
If parents are supporting guzente heit, i don’t see a problem with that other than how long can you rely on it? but for others you still would have the problem that some girls would be too focused on their work and school which is why i claim that they are not getting married. Also your solution to the other problem i mentioned would seem to work except this isn’t what people are doing. Many guys are still learning full time or almost full time even when they have a couple of kids. This is what the yeshivos encourage, send the wife to work and stay. I was speaking with a certain rosh yeshiva the other day who told me basically that he never wants any of his boys to go out and get jobs. I think if attitudes about working changed and boys had to be more responsible to support their families the community would be much better off.August 17, 2011 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #799409YW Moderator-42Moderator
anon1m0us granulated college when he was 23?August 17, 2011 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #799410ha ha ha haMember
everyone is not the same. just do what you feel is correct without having to explain.
*JUST DO WHAT YOU FEEL IS RIGHT!!*August 17, 2011 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #799411
My partial solution is to have girls start going out when they turn 21.
You still need to include a percentage of girls that do marry boys who are 18. I think we had this calculation topic before. Let’s not get into it again. But according to your numbers, do you suggest boys dating earlier when they are not ready?
ha ha ha ha-
You mean like it says in Sefer Shoftim? (21:25)
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Yitayningwut: Yes, we are good. You were quiet challenging (and that’s a compliment). Too bad that thread was closed (I caused it to get closed by starting to discuss science and Torah).August 18, 2011 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #799413
🙂August 18, 2011 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #799414
NISHT A SHIDDUCH CRISIS RATHER ITS A BITACHOM AND MIDDOS CRISIS!!!
no more all-caps pleaseAugust 18, 2011 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #799415
So manny times i hear how someone didnt act in a proper manner….whoever that other person party is … We really need to think about our actions in regard shidduchim… i have had the ZECHUS of being a sheliach to make a bh blh few shidduchem….. It appears that there is a lot of feelings of hurt in regard to this topic… We are zelem elokim we have to act accordingly…August 18, 2011 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #799416
sorry about that…August 18, 2011 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #799417tzippiMember
There’s always talk about getting the boys who won’t be klei kodesh out working earlier. How about a learner-earner model, where boys work and learn? These boys/young men will be able to learn substantially for years if done right.
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