Shidduchim and Commitment

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  • #589891

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    I’ve been involved in Shidduchim for longer than I want to admit, as a Shadchan. I observe some boys and girls commiting within the first five dates, and others still looking for a Shidduch, five or more years later.

    I dont think anyone feels that those who commited within the first five dates, were very lucky and found someone they clicked with quicker than those who keep on looking for years. My mother A”H always said, a Shidduch is Basherte, BUT you have to do your Hishtadlus and be openminded, or you can push away your Basherte.

    I see boys in Shidduchim, who in their older thirties are still looking for certain type of families, even if the girl, by their own admission, is just what they are looking for, even if the family type isn’t so different from their ideal. I’ve seen girls who in their 30’s are looking for a with-it guy, while these girls look and dress like Seminary teachers. I’ve heard of good learning guys who speak of inappropriate topics on dates, so they’ll get rejected, no matter how many times they get reminded not to. I’ve heard of girls spending the bulk of their dates talking about the Shiurim they go to and how they love their Rebbetzins. These are just examples of my theory below. I have many others.

    I think some people are behaving aand thinking in a way that prevents them from getting married, because deep down they really don’t want to get married. It’s their subconscious tactic to stay single.

    #647841

    AZ
    Participant

    I’d be very curious to know apox. how many boys you know who are in their 30’s and how many girls do you know that are in their 30’s

    #647842

    aggadah99
    Participant

    This may not hold true for those still looking after a few years, but a big part of the problem is that they just don’t know how to act, how to treat a girl, what to expect. From your examples and from what I see from my son, they’re trying to impress

    the other person. Part of this is the system. There’s pressure to prove yourself.

    There’s competition. When they first start to date they may not be ready, but feel obliged to do so, by their parents, their peers, whatever. And later on, they may be just plain scared due to what they see around them.

    #647843

    oomis
    Participant

    “I’ve heard of girls spending the bulk of their dates talking about the Shiurim they go to and how they love their Rebbetzins. These are just examples of my theory below. I have many others.

    I think some people are behaving aand thinking in a way that prevents them from getting married, because deep down they really don’t want to get married. “

    I don’t know that I agree with that last statement. I do agree that girls who have nothing more to talk about on a date, other than about their rebbetzins and shiurim that they attend, are probably very boring dates. However, I do not believe that this is what they do because deep down they don’t want to get married. I think they simply have not learned how to cultivate the art of having a normal conversation with a boy. I will not get into the reasons why I think this is the case, and open yet another can of worms, but it is very clear that many girls AND guys simply have no clue as to how to behave on a date and have a normal discussion with someone of another gender.

    #647844

    Nobody
    Member

    Yey! Oomis you and I agree for a change on the subject of shidduchim!!! PS I have another compliment for you. I bet my reasons for not wanting to suggest why some boys and girls have not cultivated the art of conversation match your reasons and I agree that’ll open not just a can of worms plus all the extras as well.

    I agree with your comments that those who have nothing more to talk about are more than likely to be boring or just lack the social skills and art of beautiful conversation.

    By the way many of today’s girls and boys also lack the art of good conversational English and the skills to communicate.

    Those who are looking for a cop-out because deep in their sub conscience they don’t want to get married will not be boring they will just say he/she is not quite what I’m looking for

    #647845

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    To AZ:

    Too many. There’s way too many on Kesher, and other websites,and Shadchan lists… etc. In any case I was addressing my statements to those that are in Shidduchim for more than 3 years. The 30 year old singles are the REAL extremes.

    To aggadah99:

    Is the thought of dieing w/o children any less scary than divorces?

    To oomis1105:

    I hear what you’re getting at and agree.

    #647847

    kapusta
    Participant

    I didnt really read through the comments, but if a boy is acting inappropriately on a date in his 30’s wouldn’t that be a reflection of his character? If thats what hes like on a date, then in real life even more.

    *kapusta*

    #647848

    AZ
    Participant

    To AZOI.IS:

    How many boys do you know who have been dating 5 yrs (27 yrs old) How many girls do you know who have been dating 5 yrs (24 yrs old.

    #647849

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    AZ:

    Unfortunately, about 5 times as many girls as guys. I can’t come up with an exact figure. Matchmaking is hard enough, and more often than not fruitless. Please don’t make a bookkeeper out of me.

    Why do you ask? Why is it relevant?

    Dont tell me to try matching them up, because at that age, most have heard or gone out with most of those of the other gender, or are not interested in going out with the people suggested. Which is why it’s imperative to get the singles married when younger.

    AZ has an agenda to close the age gap in Shidduchim. See HERE – YW Moderator

    #647850

    AZ
    Participant

    Mods thanks for being on top of the situation.

    I think the numbers put forth by AZO.IS

    “Unfortunately, about 5 times as many girls as guys” speak for themselves. Any care to explain how that is possible??

    I just take umbrage at the term “agenda”, as if I have some selfish goal in mind.

    #647851

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    AZ’s (good) point aside, “reasonable expectations” are needed from both sides. To push for perfection (in the true sense, not just criteria) is a symptom of not being ready to get married, even if you are an older single.

    #647852

    AZ
    Participant

    Thanks Gavra:

    it seems like it’s nist AZOI.IS

    THE reason that there are 5 times more older girls than guys (authors own admission)…..

    AGE GAP AGE GAP AGE GAP

    I’ll go on record as saying that redding shidduchim to sem girls (age 18-19) who will be coming home in the next couple of weeks, is a terrible avla and will undoubtedly perpetuate and exacerbate the crisis.

    #647853

    tzippi
    Member

    OK, AZ, how long SHOULD girls stay in the freezer? Give us a few guidelines, please.

    #647854

    It’s a real shame that this thread, which makes a very good point, is on the verge of getting shut down due to a poster who insists on changing the topic to a topic that was discussed in great length elsewhere in the CR as has since been closed.

    Consider yourself warned AZ.

    #647855

    Just Smile
    Participant

    AZ –

      “I’ll go on record as saying that redding shidduchim to sem girls (age 18-19) who will be coming home in the next couple of weeks, is a terrible avla and will undoubtedly perpetuate and exacerbate the crisis.”

    STOP THE SHIDDUCH CRISIS AND DON’T GET MARRIED. AZ – you crack me up!

    (Sorry mods.)

    #647856

    racheli00
    Member

    My friend was dating someone who seemed really good- potentially- personality, hashakafas, etc. were good but she was caught up on very minor things like:looks or annoying behaviors that she just decided to stop going out.

    But she had great dates- convos, hit it off etc. but those little things just ticked her off, when she asked me if i thought that was a reason I said no, give another date to see but she was reluctant since in our circles giving a third, fourth is leading a guy on… is it really leading a guy on? shouldn’t pple be able to have a fair chance not just twice before it gets serious?

    #647857

    Jothar
    Member

    Shaya Ostrow once wrote, “Many people say that they haven’t met the right one. Oftentimes, the right one they haven’t met is themselves”. True dat. Until you face reality and who you are you are just wasting money.

    #647858

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    Please- don’t be sorry

    #647859

    AZ
    Participant

    STOP THE SHIDDUCH CRISIS AND DON’T GET MARRIED. AZ – you crack me up!

    Try asking Shaya Ostrow why there are some many more older girls than guys. (I have discussed it with him, he readily acknowledged the obvious).

    Just Smile: Srry for cracking u up, but redding shiiduchim to 21-23 instead of 18-20 WILL alleviate the crisis.

    Dearest Mods, ever wonder why I never post in any other thread?? No. YW Moderator-72. any other mods, want to join the chorus?

    #647860

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    Delaying the “redding” of Shidduchim to young girls won’t eliminate the Shidduch Crisis, but it will surely alleviate it! Every little bit helps. We are in major trouble with the surplus of older single girls. Hashem Yerachem.

    #647861

    tzippi
    Member

    To the Mod: my apologies for shlepping it off tangent myself.

    #647862

    oomis
    Participant

    Thanks, Nobody.

    Now here’s a word of advice for kids in the “parsha.” If you are dating exclusively through shadchanim, then it behooves you to contact the shadchan within 24 hours of the date to say thank you, I would like to see him/her again, or thank you, but I don’t see this going anywhere for tachlis, though I appreciate your efforts on my behalf.

    Many guys are not calling the shadchan back for a much too substantial amount of time, and that leaves the girl in limbo (girls may also be guilty of doing this, but it seems to be more of a male issue, from what I have recently observed). Both parties should have the courtesy to let the shadchan know if there is any potential in this shidduch, or if they are ready to go on to the next shidduch. It is simply good manners to do so.

    #647864

    AZ
    Participant

    If anyone bothers do understand how it’s possible to have more single girls than guys tehy will understand the obvious truth of how redding close in age shidduchim WILL alleviate the crisis.

    Mods: I understand that the shidduch crisis/ age gap issue is not nearly as interesting to the cr community as all the other earth shattering topics such as cholent,cr anniversary thread, good shabbos and a host of other topics. I have a simple request to allow one thread on this topic. If the cr chevra aren’t interested they just won’t post. BYTW Judging from the last time it was discussed it was quite active.

    #647865

    squeak
    Participant

    AZ, If I may answer for the mods and the CR populace, feel free to start a thread of your own to spout your agenda. Then stop hijacking other threads.

    #647866

    lkwdfellow
    Member

    AZ mave have an agenda, but he puts much time & effort into helping singles. While you may or may not agree with him, he has done his homework. Fact is that there are much more older girls than guys, no question. His only agenda is helping singles get married.

    #647867

    squeak
    Participant

    AZ may be interested in helping singles, but I believe that his agenda hurts them.

    And the “facts” have yet to be proven. I have heard only anecdotal evidence. And not because I am uninvolved, either.

    #647868

    tzippi
    Member

    to lkwdfellow: I have no doubt that AZ’s heart is in the right place. But I really, really want an answer to my girls-in-the-freezer question. Especially since – hold on, gang, I’m about to get this back on track – I’m just imagining all these bitter, jaded, freshly defrosted 22 year olds who will redefine freezer burnt and frustration over not having been able to get on with their lives. They’ll just be so thrilled to enter the wild world of shidduchim. This can’t be a grass roots effort with people deciding to “do the right thing for the klal” unless EVERYONE’S on board, and that can’t happen without some massive, united takana of the kind we saw in far earlier eras.

    How about focusing on some of the issues in shidduchim, like our boys not being resourceful enough to stand on their own two feet to handle the responsibilities of their kesubos? I realize that we need more Torah than ever but parents are spread so much more thinly than ever. Hello, there are parents of younger children who still need to pay their tuition, camp, etc.

    But wait, I have a solution! The boys will only marry YOUNGER children so the parents won’t have any other obligations. No, that won’t work, I’ve actually heard of boys who WON’T marry younger children because they’re worried the parents will be too old to take on their responsibilities.

    Ok, another solution. These 22 year old girls will now have the time and freedom to devote to getting their degrees and some job experience. But what about girls who WANT to stay home, or at least not have the burden totally on them so they will have menuchas hanefesh for their kids? There used to be quality boys out there for them. I’d like to think there still are, and that the working boys aren’t totally disenfranchised.

    So you see, AZ, I think you’re dealing with a particular demographic that has a LOT more problems. I want a future generation of families with shalom bayis, and we’re not raising them, or guiding them through shidduchim all that well, from what I’ve seen.

    #647869

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Tzippi:

    Not to drag this thread into a different direction, (SJS has tried this one) There is a great deal of pressure in our society to get married. Many people are just not interested (don’t feel up to the task, Ben Azzai, Boys are below them, etc.). I don’t consider that to be a problem in of itself.

    However, we (as a Klal) will have to figure out a place in our society for people (specificly women & the shidduch crisis, but also men) who a frum, normal, but not married and have no plans to do so.

    As for the OP, perhaps they (your examples) are correct not wanting to get married?

    #647870

    proud tatty
    Member

    This makes no sense. The one who started this topic, who, to me at least, appears to be female, comments that she personally knows more single girls than single guys (which would be in line for expectations of a frum female). Where do you AZ get the chutpa to use her as your proof of your stats?

    And you wonder how all of us questioned your findings before? Seriously? We can’t even read your works without bursting out in laughter. It is deductions like this based upon one persons quote which lead you into an entire drasha that makes us think you have an agenda.

    You are not doing yourself any favors here, then your arrogance about how you can hijack threads because, afterall, people talk about cholent, makes me question how much of this is ga’ayva talking.

    #647871

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    racheli00- I hear your dilemma & this is definitely a problem. However, you shouldn’t let social pressure stop you. If you need that 3rd date to see where things are going- it’s ok- see each other again. It’s not the end of the world to say no after the 3rd or 4th time. If there’s a valid reason after 4 dates, then who’s to stop you??

    Of course you need to consider the other person’s feelings and not dafka drag it out.

    Also remember- some things can be resolved outside the date: speaking to parents, a Rov (Rebetzin), mentor etc. With this guidance, decisions on whether to continue or not are simpler and clearer.

    Hatzlocha

    #647872

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    To AZ:

    I’m with you! We need a Takana to be put into place ASAP. Not only is it AZ’s agenda, it should be Klal Yisroel’s agenda, unless we want to start a movement of Jewish nuns, ch”v.

    My letter above, just had some observations, but again, by and large, IMHO, its the scarcity of good guys causing the problem, enabling them to demand and get whatever they want. That’s very much a result of the present age differential in dating. Once a new crop of young girls comes on the market, the older girls have that much less chance of ever getting married. Sad!

    Because of the law of supply and demand, too many boys have become swollen Gaiva-heads, having not all that much to offer and demanding a lot, and usually getting it in the end, and more.

    Hoping/dreaming for a solution b’karov.

    #647873

    tzippi
    Member

    To Azolis: define “good guy.” Can a guy be a good guy if he’s out of a full time yeshiva framework?

    The girls may be waiting for one normal good guy, but that guy had better be in learning full time. I have no problem with a girl wanting that, BTW, but I maintain that a LOT of the problems are in full time learner gene pool.

    I don’t think we should encourage these huge egos by agitating for a solution that will only feed their egos. The girls will be better and more and more qualified, the boys will be increasingly infantilized, and frankly, the 22 year old girls who are defrosting just may not find the sechora substantial enough. Believe me, I am tremendously machshiv Torah, and it will be my great joy to see my sons within the daled amos shel Torah for as long as possible, but I feel that it’s not enough to raise our sons by the clarion call of “I am boy, see me learn.” We’re not giving them time to work as counselors, permission to go on SEED programs, or even start their own summer landscaping business. What is differentiating one boy from the next?

    Again, my apologies to all for following the tangent, not the main post.

    #647874

    AZ
    Participant

    Not sure where to start.

    proud tatty:

    “Where do you AZ get the chutpa to use her as your proof of your stats?”.

    Please read most recent post from AZOI.IS (who was the one that started this thread).

    As for the statistics of far more girls dating than guys, if the MODS allows I’ll re-write the info deduced by the Avi Chai Foundation. Simply put it a result of two obvious factors.

    1. Population Growth

    2. Age gap

    As long as there are far more 19 year old girls than 22 yr old boys (population growth) and that is the typical starting age of dating respectively (age gap) we have a massive problem.

    tzippi: Has anyone suggested putting girls in frezzer?? I certainly haven’t; simply because they won’t listen. HOWEVER, if significantly more shidduchim are redd to 21-23 yr olds and fewer to 18-20 than we make a huge dent in the crisis. Is there something u disagree with?

    Not correct. Simply put. Who do the “not good” guys marry. And yes by and large they are getting married. However the inequity of numbers does give all boys unfair leverage in the shidduch parsha that can only be rectivied by evening out the numbers.

    squeak: I’d be more than happy if only the mods allowed it. I just want one dedicated thread on the topic.

    #647875

    an open book
    Participant

    AZ:

    i’ll do you a favor & not get married for another couple years at least, ok?

    (seriously)

    -someone who occasionally discusses chulent

    😉

    #647876

    AZ
    Participant

    Tzippi:

    If you can just explain why a 22.5 yr old boy marrying a 21 yr old girl (instead of a 23 yr old marrying a 19 yr old) qualifies as

    If you feel 22.5 boy to a 21 yr old girl will have such horrible shalom bayis please clarify the basis for such suspicion.

    From a closing the age gap standpoint it makes all the difference in the world!

    For those who think the shidduch crisis is limited to the Yeshivish (learning boys) community, think again. Try speaking to SYAS or YU Connect among other organization that deal in the non yeshivish chevra. They have the same crisis. Clearly, the cause of the crisis ISN’T the learning thing.

    #647877

    Bais Yaakov maydel
    Participant

    racheli00: if your friend went out on a few dates and liked the other person then all of a sudden wants to drop the shidduch because she doesn’t like his crooked nose or the way he holds his knife when he eats…then it seems to me that she is looking for a way out. and i would think that this person is afraid of marriage. it happens. maybe not as much as AZOLIS implies, but it happens.

    (the nose and knife were just examples of trivial external dealable things)

    #647878

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    RE:For those who think the shidduch crisis is limited to the Yeshivish (learning boys) community, think again. Try speaking to SYAS or YU Connect among other organization that deal in the non yeshivish chevra. They have the same crisis. Clearly, the cause of the crisis ISN’T the learning thing.

    Right you are again, AZ! I’m a Matchmaker at SYAS, among m a n y other places!

    #647879

    tzippi
    Member

    AZ and Azoi.is (sorry for misreading your name), I took symbolic logic a long long time ago, so I should know better, and yet, it seems that a mass movement not to redd shidduchim to a certain age group is de facto putting them in the freezer. For this plan to work we have to condition a certain group of girl, and their parents, NOT to go out, or start looking, for a few years. What am I missing?

    Oh, wait, I know what I’m missing. The 19 year olds CAN go out, but the boys can’t be older than 20.

    #647880

    Bemused
    Participant

    I’m starting to get AZ (takes me time…). Redding boys to girls who are a bit older seems to make sense. The “girls’ freezer” does NOT, but I see that is not AZ’s point.

    #647881

    rebetzin
    Participant

    AZ I’m with you 100%. I just can’t understand why so many people on this site are in denial, and why they accuse you of having an agenda.

    #647882

    Jax
    Member

    AZ has risen from the dead, & made a new friend AZOI.IS! pretty funny they have the same two first letters!

    #647883

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    re:AZ has risen from the dead, & made a new friend AZOI.IS! pretty funny they have the same two first letters….

    Jax, my friend, there is no relation whatsoever. I never heard of him/her until today.

    The name of the game is Tachlis and easing and preventing heartache. Nothing in life is win win. Minor sacrifice for the good of the public is sorely needed.

    It’s almost midnight, have you red a Shidduch today to a 22+ yr old girl?

    #647884

    ywngirl
    Member

    did any of you see the list of 150 boys over 26??

    #647885

    Jax
    Member

    AZOI.IS: sorry i should have been nicer, & welcomed ya to the Grand CR! join the fun & intense discussions!

    -Jax Chairman of the CR Board!

    #647886

    AZ
    Participant

    Bemused and Rebetzin: Nice to see I’m not all alone. Baruch Hashem. If only more and more people would GET IT, we could really do something about the crisis.

    #647887

    justin2
    Member

    By only setting up a guy and girl, if they are close in age, may actually make the “shidduch situation” worse. Guys and girls, potentially, will not be “allowed” to go out with the person who is right for them, just bc of their age differential. Today, there are many married couples, where one spouse is more than a year or 2 older than the other; obviously they were meant to be! So although the idea of setting up people who are close in age, will give the “older” girls more dates, it may end up costing a few people the chance of finding the “right one” too!

    #647888

    AZ
    Participant

    “By only setting up a guy and girl, if they are close in age”

    Does anyone really think we will ever reach a point that ONLLY close in age shidduchim will go out?

    What is urgently needed is far far more close in age shidduchim than in the past. A good place to start is to not go run to redd all the lkwd guys coming out of the freezer (almost 23 yr olds) to the sem girls coming home in a week (19 yr olds).

    #647889

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    AZ:

    IMHO, you sound like Hashem’s noble Shaliach to ease the heartache of older single girls.

    May you have Hatzlacha! We’re with you all the way.

    #647890

    proud tatty
    Member

    To AZ and AZOI.IS, you guys deserve an Emmy Award for this performance of yours. AZOI.IS comes on for the 1st time and makes their post, suddenly, after weeks of absence AZ appears and is suddenly the 1st poster on this board.

    They then perform this masterful acting job, concluding with the presenter calling the the one with a solution (which, by the way did not deal with the original issue) and calls him the shliach of Hashem.

    I smell a con-job

    #647891

    what is wrong with you people? If men would date those who are closer to their age, and not just the fresh on the market girls, there would be more possibilities to match up! listen. we have 5 boys and 5 girls. 5=oldest, 1 youngest. If the oldest boy 5 took a 2 or 3 girl then who will the 5 girl marry? and the 4 boy might take the 1 or 2 girl. who will the 4 girl marry?

    why is it acceptable for men to marry late and not the women? I am tired of hearing “she is an older girl…just accept anyone…she’s 23” why do girls out of high school or seminary 18/19 start on the scene? what makes them appropriate to get married? There are many cases of women that got married young and realized that they missed out on growing up and are not mature enough to take care of babies and to raise a family. many of these women are getting divorced. why is the divorce rate of frum couples so high? yes, they are creeping higher and higher- how many people can you think of in 1 minute who are getting divorced? people are not mature enough to get married!

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