Shidduchim & "The Boys' Mother"

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  • #616962
    Joseph
    Participant

    Why is everything wrong in shidduchim pinned on “the boys mother” by so many people? First of all, the boys father has as much to do, and more to do, with the boys’ shidduchim than the mother. Second of all, the girls’ mothers have as much to do with any purported, perceived and real problems in shidduchim as the boys’ mothers.

    Teretz is that the people blaming the boys’ mothers need a scapegoat for their own shortcomings.

    #1122844

    Is there any possibility that this information came from shadchonim?

    #1122845
    TheGoq
    Participant

    “First of all, the boys father has as much to do, and more to do, with the boys’ shidduchim than the mother”

    What do you base this on?

    #1122846
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Joe?

    #1122847
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    Even if you were right with your assumptions, your teirutz doesn’t explain why the boy’s mother is used a scapegoat more than his father or the girl’s mother.

    #1122848
    technical21
    Participant

    Although I don’t have a brother in the parsha myself, I spoke to a friend of mine whose 24-year-old brother was in shidduchim for the last year. She told me that her mother had a stack of resumes ad hashamayim, and every few days she’d look into another girl. She could kind of decide to say no for any random reason, until she found the “perfect” girl.

    This kind of mentality is the reason that so much of what is wrong with shidduchim is blamed on the boy’s mother.

    Another thing is that often boys’ mothers are looking for things in their daughters-in-law that their sons could not care less about- i.e. G.O. in high school (boys have no clue what G.O. is!), dresses in style (many boys don’t care, though some do), “bubbly/spunky”, etc. I’m not saying that this doesn’t work the other way, too, but it tends to run this way more often.

    In general, the attitude of “my son has everything coming to him because he’s a top learner” (whatever a top learner means) seems to come from boys’ mothers. I’ve heard it directly from mothers and from shadchanim about the mothers.

    Again, I’m not saying there aren’t others to blame- just that boys’ mothers have a lot to do with it.

    #1122849
    Joseph
    Participant

    Comlink: Which information?

    Goq: From being involved in this inyan and dealing with numerous families.

    sdd: They need someone to scapegoat. And the bulk of the complainings tends to come from the girls side.

    technical: You seriously overestimate the mothers influence and involvement in the boys shidduchim compared to his father.

    #1122850
    TheGoq
    Participant

    So what I infer from that is that people from josephs velt don’t have much respect for woman so naturally the man makes all the decisions but just because that is your experience that does not mean it is the norm.

    #1122851
    flatbusher
    Participant

    I have not heard that the fathers are as involved in shidduchim as the boys’ mothers. I have daughters and all the contacts with the boys’ side have been with the mother, which considering a good number of shadchanim are women it stands to reason they would deal with the mother since it wouldn’t be tzniusdik for men to do so. I have heard all the comments, and I have yet to hear from any father friends or otherwise that they are involved in finding shidduchim for their sons, though they are involved in finding shidduchim for their daughters. I have heard so much nonsense attributed to the boys’ mother concerning looks, dress size, etc. They can’t all be made up

    #1122852
    Joseph
    Participant

    Your inference is incorrect and does not logically follow what I said.

    #1122853

    She told me that her mother had a stack of resumes ad hashamayim, and every few days she’d look into another girl. She could kind of decide to say no for any random reason, until she found the “perfect” girl.

    This kind of mentality is the reason that so much of what is wrong with shidduchim is blamed on the boy’s mother.

    Is that her fault? What should she do if she has a stack of resumes? Pick the worst one? Do eeny meeny miny mo?

    #1122854

    Okay, replace “information” with “idea,” Joseph.

    #1122855
    Joseph
    Participant

    I haven’t heard shadchanim voice this idea much. It for the most part is derived on its own. The experiences of shadchanim were taken into account but I’m not familiar with them necessarily sharing the above comments.

    #1122856
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “First of all, the boys father has as much to do, and more to do, with the boys’ shidduchim than the mother.”

    Interesting. Most young men in shidduchim I have spoken to, specifically about shidduchim, always mention running it by their mother, asking if I can give the info directly to their mother or can their mother call me for more info. Almost never is the father the one to run things by, the one to follow up with or the one to follow up. Perhaps its just me.

    #1122857
    flatbusher
    Participant

    apush: I think yours is the common experience.

    #1122858

    Perhaps its just me.

    No, it’s not just you.

    #1122859
    Joseph
    Participant

    It’s you and some others I would assume. There isn’t one way that everyone does it. But the mother making the parental decisions regarding the sons shidduchim is not how most bochorim’s shidduchims are conducted.

    Now this is a nuanced topic. Often it is true that the mother will be the “secretary” for her sons shidduch prospects. She’ll make the notes of what was redt, will relay information, will inform others what her son is looking for, etc. But her being the shidduch secretary in no way demonstrates that she is calling the shots. She is the messenger. Often the father and/or the bochor will advise the wife/mother what questions to ask, what points to tell the shadchanim, etc.

    #1122860
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Often the father and/or the bochor will advise the wife/mother what questions to ask, what points to tell the shadchanim, etc. “

    And just as often the mother asks questions that the father/son would be mortified if they knew she even asked.

    #1122861
    Joseph
    Participant

    That’s why you need to marry well in the first place. 😉

    #1122862
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, what is the source for your opinions? How many people did you surveyed?

    As usual, you make unproven , blanket assertions, then require naysayers to provide evidence.

    My wife has never seen a father at a shidduch meeting, nor has s by e ever been contacted by a father

    #1122864
    apushatayid
    Participant

    What’s source?

    #1122865
    technical21
    Participant

    DY- I’m not saying it’s her fault; obviously she has to start somewhere. I think that the reasoning of narrowing down prospects is sometimes overly ridiculous.

    #1122866
    Joseph
    Participant

    lessc: You took a survey and census on your view? Was it done with Gallup? Additionally, you are forming your view based on the MO demographic whereas I am referencing the chareidi demographic.

    #1122867

    I think that the reasoning of narrowing down prospects is sometimes overly ridiculous.

    Of course sometimes it is. But do you (or anyone) know how often silly nonsense is factored in? We hear the stories, because they’re both funny and sad at the same time, and stick out. But is it really that common?

    #1122868
    technical21
    Participant

    DY- from the shidduch calls my friends and I have gotten since we started shidduchim, it seems to be pretty common. Obviously, there are no statistics about these things.

    I don’t know if there’s a better way- doesn’t seem like it to me, to be honest- but I just try my best as the girl not to perpetuate the same mistakes.

    #1122869
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, by attacking me and not providing your sources, you’ve proved my point.

    #1122870
    Joseph
    Participant

    You weren’t attacked, so calm down. You asked me if I took a poll on my observation so I merely asked you the same. And I made the additional point that we are talking about a different demographic than each other.

    #1122871
    apushatayid
    Participant

    how broad, or narrow is the charedi demographic you are working with? I dont even want to go there, but, how do you define charedi?

    #1122872
    writersoul
    Participant

    My mom makes shidduch meetings. She has had one male participant in all of her 15+ years running them.

    #1122873
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    If I was an immature boy I would totally use my mother as a cover to get what I wanted. Ie, I’m not shallow and want a skinny girl, it’s my mother who won’t let me date a skinny girl.

    #1122874
    technical21
    Participant

    Torah613Torah- they’re the ones who don’t usually care to cover up; they outright say that they want a skinny girl.

    #1122875
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Most boys don’t want to marry a skinny girl, they want a pretty girl.

    #1122876
    Joseph
    Participant

    Is prettiness objective?

    #1122877
    flatbusher
    Participant

    RebYidd, how do you know what MOST of anyone wants, knows, thinks, etc. There is no way to know that. I would agree that looks are a factor, but plenty of people I see are married to very average looking girls, some pretty, some not, some skinny, some otherwise. The joke is the boys seem to have less to offer than what they demand of the girls. Is that Daas Torah?

    #1122878
    from Long Island
    Participant

    Sorry guys, but as the mother of only daughters, I will tell you that the boys mother has enormous influence on whom her son dates. Frequently, the information from the Shadchan, gotten from the young man, in no way, matches the information gotten from his mother.

    Often, the mother projects WHAT SHE WANTS for her son, rather than what he wants for himself.

    It had made for many sticky, uncomfortable conversations and situations.

    #1122879
    oomis
    Participant

    I totally agree with LI mom.

    #1122880
    flatbusher
    Participant

    I also agree with LI mom. As I have mentioned in the past in a different thread, when I tried setting up a niece, the boy’s mother commented that the girl is not skinny and the family has no money and I quote, “I am looking for the best deal I can get for my son.” This is not an isolated incident

    #1122881
    Joseph
    Participant

    How do you ascertain from your anecdote that it isn’t an isolated incident?

    #1122882
    technical21
    Participant

    Joseph- many, many people have shared similar experiences. Obviously anecdotal evidence is weak, but many people in shidduchim have gone through “not enough money” or “not pretty/skinny enough” coming from the boy’s mother.

    B’H nothing like that ever got back to me, but I’m sure it’s been said.

    #1122883
    flatbusher
    Participant

    I’ve heard similar comments in connection with shidduchim I have tried to make, like “I have resumes with prettier girls in my son’s stack” I also heard of boys mothers who basically want to visit the girl’s workplace secretly to get a look at the girl in action.

    #1122884
    Joseph
    Participant

    Many people, I suppose, have also been asked what kind of tablecloth do you use on Shabbos.

    At least if you believe everything you hear.

    #1122885
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Well, I have heard the tablecloth question. Truthfully, I couldnt believe it when I heard it but it wasnt as outrageous as the ankles question I once got (does she have skinny ankles!).

    #1122887
    Hashemisreading
    Participant

    Do you stack and scrape at the table?

    Do you use mattress pads?

    Do you use plastic tablecloths?

    I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with asking the questions, except if the answer will make the mother say yes or no to a potential questions.

    I think these questions are helpful in finding out what type the family is. are they simple? classy, balebatish?

    #1122888
    flatbusher
    Participant

    The questions are ridiculous. All this pre-checking is ridiculous. If it sounds good, let them go out and decide for themselves.

    #1122889
    Hashemisreading
    Participant

    Sounds can be deceiving.

    #1122890
    Joseph
    Participant

    The couple may become infatuated if they go out before due diligent research was completed.

    #1122891
    flatbusher
    Participant

    you mean the couple that eventually marries shouldn’t like each other that much as long as the due diligence pans out. I dated a lot before I was married and did not go through the due diligence. I don’t know if the fear that a couple on a first date could be infatuated and that there is some LEGITIMATE reason why they shouldn’t continue to date.

    #1122892
    Joseph
    Participant

    They might “fall in love” before the research, which may demonstrate an incompatibility based on hashkafa or background or history or hidden attributes, is concluded and it may prove difficult or even impossible to break it up despite that it is a bad match.

    #1122893

    I understand why a mother would want her son to marry a pretty girl, but honestly, you don’t want a mother-in-law who would be so rude to actually say the girl is not pretty enough.

    #1122894
    Joseph
    Participant

    I understand why a mother would want her son to marry a pretty girl

    Why?

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