October 6, 2010 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #700845charliehallParticipant
Do not let family, friends, teachers, or shadchanim bully you into something you don’t want! Your ideals are not unreasonable, and there are plenty of nice guys out there who would be happy to have a stay at home mom taking care of his children. Don’t think you are “settling” for someone who wants what you want. Not everyone can or should be a full time learner.October 6, 2010 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #700846popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Are there still “stay at home” moms? I thought there are only working moms and Starbucks moms.October 6, 2010 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #700847oomisParticipant
Pascha, never let ANYONE tell you what you know to be right for yourself. If the shadchan ONLY sees you with a “learning boy” then find another shadchan. Im ein kemach ein Torah. I commend you for your practicality. There are plenty of earners who make real time for learning as well. What on earth is wrong with us that this question is even an issue?October 7, 2010 12:07 am at 12:07 am #700848
“WIY: why not look for a guy who has a degree who is serious about learning, that way you get everything you want (granted he may not be as externally “yeshivish” as a full learne)?”
The person said what they did because I do need a Talmid Chacham (at least someone who can say over divrei Torah easily), due to my family background and love of learning. OTOH I feel like I’m asking to much to ask for someone who is both a Talmid Chacham and has a parnasa. It’s important to me to be a good wife and mother, I don’t think I can do that if parnasa is on my shoulders.
charliehall: yes but they mean well, and there may be a kernel of truth to what he’s saying, or it wouldn’t bother me.
pba: Yes there are 🙂
oomis: thanks but when you are raised that the best way is to be in learning, it’s hard to face another option.October 7, 2010 12:39 am at 12:39 am #700849
Why is asking for someone who is a talmid chacham and will have a parnassah too much to ask for? I don’t know you and what you have to offer but you seem like a good person and you should go after what’s best for you and believe you deserve the best. There are a number of good boys out there who can say over Torah and also have a degree or are going for one. It is possible that some of those boys want stay at home moms but you should know that in this day and age it is very uncommon and most girls work ESPECIALLY if they marry learning boys. I do know of a few stay at home moms but their husbands are from wealthy mishpachos so they work for the family business and the wife is at home with the kids.October 7, 2010 12:48 am at 12:48 am #700850
WIY: Just to clarify – I don’t want to be a stay at home mom, I’m a VERY high energy person and would be miserable. What I want is to be relaxed about parnasa – that I have the flexibility to work the number of hours I thrive on, and not be stressed that if I work less we will have parnasa issues.October 7, 2010 12:57 am at 12:57 am #700851
If a husband is kovea itim and has a job where he is making let’s say $60 K and up per year, than a woman should not have to worry about working. In that case, she would be able to work at her leisure to have some extra money for herself. A man should not have his wife bear the burden of being the sole breadwinner.October 7, 2010 1:02 am at 1:02 am #700852
Ok thanks for clarifying. So for what you are saying you would need a boy with a good job or good degree, who is also a ben torah. Not a big pot to select from but there are some good boys like that left out there Hatzlacha with finding him.October 7, 2010 2:19 am at 2:19 am #700853
reb d – “If a husband is kovea itim and has a job where he is making let’s say $60 K and up per year, than a woman should not have to worry about working.”
60K? with how many kids? Not in this world, and not as a frum jew.
“So for what you are saying you would need a boy with a good job or good degree, who is also a ben torah. Not a big pot to select from”
Jeez, Ya think.
Pascha – give me the oldest age of a guy that you would go out with and how tall are you (I may have an idea)October 7, 2010 2:38 am at 2:38 am #700854
WIY: Thank you. I am not worried – I know Hashem has the right one for me.October 7, 2010 4:07 am at 4:07 am #700855
With all due respect, you really shouldnt say geez or jeez as it is short for the name of a certain Jew boy who went off the derech and started Christianity.October 7, 2010 4:09 am at 4:09 am #700856
You are welcome. Of course He does, the question is do you or do we really know yet what is right for us. Shidduchim is in many ways a process of self discovery where people begin to figure out what they are really all about, what they want, and what is important to them.October 7, 2010 4:38 am at 4:38 am #700857
You are right. It depends on where you are living. If one wanted to live in NY or NJ, and had let’s say 6 kids, than they would need a job where they were making at least $100-$150 K to have a comfortable standard of living. And, of course, these are jobs requiring education. Law, medicine, dentistry, optometry, etc.October 7, 2010 4:39 am at 4:39 am #700858
Paul started Christianity. Not Jesus.October 7, 2010 4:47 am at 4:47 am #700859
I know you are right I guess I should have said the guy who Christians consider god or the son of god.October 8, 2010 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #700861superficialMember
BP Totty. Why do you think the learning system should be changed. Have you discussed this with R’ Malkiel Kotler or one of our other precious Gedolim?!
EDITEDOctober 8, 2010 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #700862popa_bar_abbaParticipant
You don’t need to make $100- 150k. Most men are not capable of making that much money. It is ok to work a normal job and tell your kids tuition committees to fly a kite.October 8, 2010 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #700863
“It is ok to work a normal job and tell your kids tuition committees to fly a kite”
Why is tuition the first thing to go? How about driving one car?October 8, 2010 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #700864oomisParticipant
“Are there still “stay at home” moms? I thought there are only working moms and Starbucks moms.”
A stay at home mom, Pops, IS a working mom. Three lashes with a wet noodle, for you.
“With all due respect, you really shouldnt say geez or jeez as it is short for the name of a certain Jew boy who went off the derech and started Christianity”
I once mentioned this in the CR, and “gee” is the same thing -just an even shorter form of the word. It was first used (as in gee whiz) as a way of cursing, using the Bethlehem Boy’s name without actually using it as profanity. Either way, it refers to Oso Ish, and should not be said by Jews.October 8, 2010 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #700865
Do you know how many people don’t pay full tuition. In most schools tuition levels are insane and if one has 3 or more young children one has to be wealthy to afford full tuition. 2 cars is often a necessity if there are 2 working adults in the house.October 8, 2010 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #700866bptParticipant
No, Superficial I did not. But you are free to pursue the lifestyle of your choice, so don’t let me talk you out of it. Just be sure your wife / inlaws / parents agree to your plan,and its a go!
By the way, how was Roosevelt Island? (or was that another thread?)October 10, 2010 12:20 am at 12:20 am #700867
WIY – I dont doubt that making ends meet in todays day and age is hard.
However, all to often there is this attitude of “tell your kids tuition committees to fly a kite”. There is almost nothing you can do for your child like a good quality Jewish education.
So pay the tuition, have Hakaras Hatov and pinch the budget somewhere else.October 10, 2010 12:38 am at 12:38 am #700868
superficial, Im not sure what BPT said that you took offense to, but I can say from personal experience, many, too many, but NOT ALL, of those who chose long term Kollel lifestyles, would have chosen differently if they had had a crystal ball.October 10, 2010 4:37 am at 4:37 am #700869
Thats a pretty big thing to say, but then again we are on the internet and we are anonymous so we can say what we want and nobody will know if its true or baloney, but some people do use common sense when reading comments. Be advised.October 10, 2010 5:04 am at 5:04 am #700870sof davar hakol nishmaMember
sorry i’m responding so late-
A little nervous about admitting this publicly, but…
I look specifically for a realistic form of financial support. I need the peace of mind to know I can stay home with my babies if I want to, and not worry about food on the table. Also, I don’t want to depend on charity from ANYONE – not my parents, not the gov’t, not a yeshiva (unless he’s working for them), not his parents. It just really bothers me to be a taker.
Am I the only one? I still have to figure out how to say this to shadchanim. “
boy boy boy your waiting to be screamed at. Money comes and goes, here today gone tomorrow. yiras shamayim and midos don’t. i know people personally and i pitty them because they married into such rich families… that they’re supported by them and own houses because of them…. that the poor daughter in laws have to dress according to the way the mother in law wants… things are NOT NOT NOT at ALLL so simple as they seem. Money is convenient but you never know what goes on behind close doors. It’s a package deal. I would rather live a simple life and make my own choices of what to wear, dress my children in , what school to send them to… etc.
unfortunately people are so blinded by money, i know of a shidduch taht the couple got divorced because to begin with , it wasn’t a good match but they were so blinded.October 10, 2010 5:07 am at 5:07 am #700871sof davar hakol nishmaMember
superficial, Im not sure what BPT said that you took offense to, but I can say from personal experience, many, too many, but NOT ALL, of those who chose long term Kollel lifestyles, would have chosen differently if they had had a crystal ball. “
what are you saying? that if they knew what living a kollel lifestyle was about they wouldn’t have chosen such a lifestyle? well, young people have to make that choice for themselves, is it material comforts (and comforts that aren’t guaranteed, depending on if he makes parnasa or not) or a much simpler lifestyle. it’s not an easy choice but an ideal and strong desire for kollel can keep them going for a long time.October 10, 2010 7:05 am at 7:05 am #700872
sof davar – ideals and desires dont feed and clothe the kids.October 10, 2010 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #700873
“it’s not an easy choice but an ideal and strong desire for kollel can keep them going for a long time”.
If the couple has kids and there isnt enough money to support them, they get help from Uncle Sam. Once they start with that it’s almost impossible to break away from that forever, no matter how the guy is Shteiging, unless its the rare situation where the guy is offered some top position somewhere, either in Chinuch or business through connections, before they’re in the red financially. Ive seen too much of this with close relatives, with a lot of unhappy campers among them.October 10, 2010 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #700874
I suppose it’s like any course of life; may regret that they didn’t join kollel. And some doctors wish they became lawyers, and many businessmen wish they were plumbers. Or toenail cutter import/export professionals. Just because some people regret their path doesn’t invalidate it.
Everyone has their unhappy campers.
Certainly, it’s not for everyone, or even the majority of people, but it is possible, a young avrech has a fiscal plan, and works accordingly, and his wife is willing to work hard – and he is a successful learner – it can be done with drastic money. Perhaps not in lakewood, but it can be done. Your experience seems to limited to your relatives, and I don’t suppose we should stereotype the entire kollel world based on that. I have seen couples be very successful without major support.
I know of one Avrech who lives on around $2,500 a month in eretz yisrael. His wife works in computers for Bituach LeUmi at the tune of 9000 shekel a month, and the rest he gets from his Kollel. Is that above average? Certainly. Does it happen? Yes. Is it possible? Yes. Hard as heck. Definitively.
Does a girl have a right to say “no”? Of course! More then that, if the yes isn’t a burning one, I would also think another life path was necessary.October 10, 2010 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #700875
Moq, you’ve mentioned unique cases in Israel. I’ve heard of college educated women who had to diaper babies, etc for a job. Some happily, some not.
“if the yes isn’t a burning one, I would also think another life path was necessary. “
I totally agree, but until they’re in it themselves, they’re “out of it”. How many cases have you heard of that? Ive heard many.October 10, 2010 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #700876
sof davar hakol nishma:
“boy boy boy your waiting to be screamed at. Money comes and goes, here today gone tomorrow. yiras shamayim and midos don’t. i know people personally and i pitty them because they married into such rich families… that they’re supported by them and own houses because of them…. that the poor daughter in laws have to dress according to the way the mother in law wants… things are NOT NOT NOT at ALLL so simple as they seem. Money is convenient but you never know what goes on behind close doors. It’s a package deal. I would rather live a simple life and make my own choices of what to wear, dress my children in , what school to send them to… etc.
unfortunately people are so blinded by money, i know of a shidduch taht the couple got divorced because to begin with , it wasn’t a good match but they were so blinded.”
1. Who said money is the issue here? If you knew me, you would know how ridiculous that assumption is. The issue is FOOD. CLOTHES. TUITION. HOUSING. I don’t have family who can help me, and I DONT WANT TO ACCEPT CHARITY FROM ANYONE ESP. THE GOVERNMENT. This is capitalized to make sure you read what I wrote. I am not talkign about wanting to have enough money to have 2 cars and a bungalow.
2. OTOH, I know myself, that for peace of mind to serve Hashem and to have a home which is focused on doing Hashem’s Will and not my own, my husband has to be able to take the burden of parnasa. There is NOTHING wrong with this, this is the curse of man since Adam, he will till the earth. Hillel Hazakein worked, our Avos worked, (even Yaakov as a shepherd), the Chofetz Chaim had a store, and my husband will work and serve Hashem his whole life.
3. As for my “asking to be yelled at” – Divrei Chachamim b’nachas nishmaim – wise people speak softly. Please make the strength of what you say the content rather than the emotionality.
sof davar hakol nishma
“what are you saying? that if they knew what living a kollel lifestyle was about they wouldn’t have chosen such a lifestyle? well, young people have to make that choice for themselves, is it material comforts (and comforts that aren’t guaranteed, depending on if he makes parnasa or not) or a much simpler lifestyle. it’s not an easy choice but an ideal and strong desire for kollel can keep them going for a long time.”
I know many people who struggle being in kollel. It’s really not for everybody.
“I suppose it’s like any course of life; may regret that they didn’t join kollel. And some doctors wish they became lawyers, and many businessmen wish they were plumbers. Or toenail cutter import/export professionals. Just because some people regret their path doesn’t invalidate it.
Everyone has their unhappy campers.”
This is true. Finding a parnasa is like finding a shidduch – like splitting the sea. And not always is it the perfect life we envisioned, but the point is to serve Hashem not to be perfectly happy at all times.October 11, 2010 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #700877
Don’t me wrong, money is plenty important. Food, clothing, sanity. The level that you don’t need to constantly worry about money is important, and should be a goal. True, money comes and goes, but we certainly must make our histadlus, and a girl has every right to make sure the guy who signs here kesubah – that is, the guy who obligates himself to support her while she is bedridden with morning sickness for say, six months – can keep his end of the commitment. That is histadlus. Some may argue what histadlus is (does he davka need to be a professional, yada yada yada) but that is a question of what are the fiscal realities on the ground.
That’s not materialism; that’s intelligence. Surely, a girl may decide to give up on the right given to her by the Torah for various idealistic reasons – but the default is HE supports HER. And should stay that way. There a world of difference between materialism & histadlus.October 11, 2010 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #700878so rightMember
Moq, what you say is true. Yet by default SHE has obligations to HIM as well. Some of them, says the gemorah (Kesubos 4b), include pouring his drinks, making his bed, washing his face, hands, & feet. So when we insist he support her, let us at the same time she do her obligations.October 11, 2010 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #700879
Nay, let us build healthy relationships that are not based on obligations…October 11, 2010 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #700880so rightMember
Yet in your previous comment you referred to what “obligates” him; so I brought the other side.October 11, 2010 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #700881
You are correct, she certainly has obligations as well. I speak whimisically (and hopefully). As chazal teach us – before marriage, b’stey enayim – afterwards – b’ayin echad.October 11, 2010 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #700882bein_hasdorimParticipant
Answering the original question,
Stability, a plan, a degree, a pending degree, Money, Gelt, Kesef, Dinera,
and of course the potential to make more money.
Oh! I almost forgot, middos are also verrry important,
as well as looks. but if the first ingredient i mention is there
looks really doesn’t matter.
Their own looks & designer wear, is good enough for the both of them.
There are also those who are looking for the next Gadol Hador.
So It’s either the next Bill Gates, or the next Rav Elyashiv.
Sorry, no room for anything in between.
Disclaimer: This is only the case with 75% of the population,
the other 25% I guess live on the edge.
This information was acurate as of last year, maybe things have changed.:-)October 11, 2010 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #700883
Thank you Moq. So right, thanks also.October 15, 2010 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #700884cshapiroMember
someone who is generous. honest and genuine….everyone has skeletons in their closet, just dont pretend to be something your not. daven to hashem that shes the rite girl and youll be fine.
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