shidduchim: what's all this about middos?

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  • #592532

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Should middos really be a focal point in your search for a spouse?

    Which purposes of marriage are furthered by having a spouse who has good middos?

    I don’t deny that people who have good middos are easier to get along with, but that is at most a necessary condition for a good marriage. Shouldn’t you be principally “looking for” the things which actually relate to the purpose of marriage?

    #1093664

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Yeah. Marry someone with money.

    #1093665

    Presumably, “the purpose of marriage” is best accomplished with

    “a good marriage,” for which “necessary conditions” must be met.

    #1093666

    oomis
    Participant

    Without good middos, there is no marriage. Does anyone want his or her children to be brought up by someone with BAD middos?

    #1093668

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Oomis: Without 4 wheels, there is no car, and you certainly would not want a car with only 3 wheels. But if I ask you what is the most important aspect of a car you are looking to buy, you don’t say 4 wheels.

    Comlink: Same as oomis.

    Rebyidd: Agreed.

    Also, this apparently used to be one of my “perfect threads”, until rebyidd unperfected it after 4 years.

    #1093669

    Joseph
    Participant

    Middos are much more important than looks.

    #1093670

    I don’t deny that people who have good middos are easier to get along with, but that is at most a necessary condition for a good marriage.

    Presumably, “the purpose of marriage” is best accomplished with “a good marriage,” for which “necessary conditions”

    must be met.

    I mentioned the relationship between

    a “good marriage” and “the purpose of marriage,”

    but I didn’t say that marriage cannot exist without good middos,

    so you can’t answer me with the same answer as you gave Oomis.

    Anyway, what do you consider the purpose of marriage, and what are the

    “things which actually relate to the purpose of marriage”

    (that one can look for in shidduchim) which follow that idea?

    #1093671

    oomis
    Participant

    There cannot be a FUNCTIONAL car without wheels, and there is no functional marriage with partners lacking in middos. Not one I would want for my children, anyway.

    #1093672

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Of course. But do you go to a dealer and ask for a car with 4 wheels, or for a car that goes well and lasts a long time and is safe.

    #1093673

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If you they’ve got cars without enough wheels in their inventory, and you know people who bought such cars and couldn’t drive, you’d make sure to ask for a car with four wheels.

    #1093674

    oomis
    Participant

    A car that lasts long and is safe, is analogous to a marriage where both partners have good middos,and thus the marriage will more likely also be long-lasting and safe.

    #1093675

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    The midos aspect is just some propaganda started by feminists who wanted fat and poor girls to get married.

    #1093676

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    So now feminists are suddenly into marriage?

    #1093677

    oomis
    Participant

    Scared driver, ftr overweight girls and poor girls have as much right to be married as anyone else. I think your remark was a bit insensitive. Thin, rich girls AND guys all have need of having good middos. We all do.

    #1093678

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    scared driver delight: Hopefully it won’t happen, but you will probably eat those words, since you’ll most likely marry the wrong person for ridiculous reasons.

    People need to have their priorities straight. Besides, life happens. People’s health and looks can change and if that happens after you marry someone for the wrong reasons, you end up regretting it.

    #1093679

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Unfortunately, often when boys are looking for a shidduch, middos are not the No. 1. It comes after looks, dress size, money, etc.

    #1093680

    Joseph
    Participant

    flatbusher: You seem to believe income potential is #1 before even middos.

    If the only two guys available to marry your daughter were either a) a guy with tremendous middos tovos but little potential for a good income or b) a guy with not so good middos but with a master’s degree, a terrific job and income potential, who would you think preferable to marry – all other things being equal for the purposes of this discussion. Be honest in responding to the question as defined.

    #1093681

    golfer
    Participant

    Scareddd, I’m not sure I understand your post.

    Are you saying that-

    Feminists want fat, poor girls to get married.

    But if not for the efforts (?) of these feminists, girls who are fat, or poor, or some combination of the two, would not get married?

    And so you’re saying good middos are some sort of fantasy/propaganda invented by feminists?

    Or what?

    Oomis thinks your remark was a bit insensitive.

    I’m not understanding oomis either.

    A bit?

    (I always thought feminists were davka the ones who wanted girls- fat, poor, skinny, rich, or whatever sort- to get good jobs, good educations, good pay. Since when are they mixing into shidduchim?)

    #1093682

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Methinks SDD’s post is being taken too seriously.

    #1093683

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Lior: I’m saying what the boys are looking for. Have you had children in shidduchim? usually the mother is involved, and the first thing most seem to ask is dress size, then they want a picture, then they ask if the family is willing to support. If the ls are davka looking for a long-term learner, I don’t think income potential is an issue

    #1093684

    oomis
    Participant

    Oomis thinks your remark was a bit insensitive.

    I’m not understanding oomis either.

    A bit?”

    I said it that way, so as not to be overly critical-sounding of the poster’s remarks. Obviously, I feel that any pejorative statement about one’s weight or financial status, is totally out of line.

    And DY, if anyone here has a daughter who is overweight and not married yet, or the parents are poor and for this reason shidduchim are not readily coming their way, that not-so-seriously-meant statement can be a tremendous source of pain of onaas devarim. I do think the poster was being flippant, rather than deliberately mean, but there are some things people may not find so amusing. Just sayin’…

    #1093685

    golfer
    Participant

    Could be, DY.

    But everyone here knows I always enjoy a post that makes me laugh.

    Scareddd’s post did Not make me laugh.

    At all.

    Am I losing my sense of humor?

    Or was scareddd totally out of line?

    #1093686

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I could be wrong, but I read it as cynical to those who deem those issues too important.

    #1093687

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    (I was responding to oomis, but it came out, appropriately as well, as a response to golfer.)

    #1093688

    PAA is a great troll because he says the emes amongst his foolishness.

    “Good middos” on a resume or by calling a close friend is having 4 wheels on a car. The thing to look at is exceptional middos. Now, it might not be to find such a person. If so, middos really are not an issue to consider (unless of course the person has bad middos).

    As an example:

    Shprintza: Rizzy, I don’t know who to go out with?

    Rizzy: Nu, what are the choices?

    Shprintza: Moshe – he’s well to do. is a good learner, and people seem to say nice things. Or Yankel, he’s not so bright, but his friends say he has great middos.

    Rizzy: Wow, his friends on the phone say he has great middos? Go for it. Middos are the most important.

    Let’s change some things:

    Shprintza: Rizzy, I don’t know what car to lease?

    Rizzy: Nu, what are the choices?

    Shprintza: A Camry – it’s affordable, safe, has nice features. Or Altima – it’s not as nice, but it’s dependable according to Nissan.

    Rizzy: Well, if Nissan says it’s dependable, then that’s what’s most important in a car. What good is a car if you can’t depend on it.

    Nisht. Of course middos are important. But nu nu nu what is great about their middos? They didn’t hit their shtender? They were not thrown out of seminary? They did their required chessed hours with a bren. All yidden are good within.

    The emes is all the things about Moshe are also likely nothing. Who said he was a good learner? His chavrusa. No, says his chavrusa, he’s a real slouch (ie what’s he supposed to say). Who said he is well to do? The person who looks at what jewelry his mom is wearing? All of these things are nothing. Tachlis. Tachlis. If someone is going into a business, do they call the potential partner’s friend and lawyer and ask how they are as a person. No. They want proof. If your daughter is nice and has a great middos, come up with something that shows that – tell that. Find the person whose your daughter’s good middos were shown via. Ie the seminary roommate who was a slob. The friend in high school who was not so nice. Whatever. Don’t question why no one has al pi ruach hakodesh not chapped the middos tovos of your lil’ tzadikel (or tzadikla). I mean this with good charm btw. I do not mean to make light of a tough parsha…but it’s trolling thread, felt some license.

    DQB

    #1093689

    oomis
    Participant

    The original post asked if good middos should be A focal point, not THE focal point. And most assuredly, it should be.

    #1093690

    Joseph
    Participant

    Middos should be THE focal point.

    #1093691

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    isnt one of the points of marraige to work on your middos, so someone with good middos would actually be a detterent

    #1093692

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Why would good middos be a deterrent?

    #1093693

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    because they wouldnt work on themselves

    #1093694

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    No, it gives you more time to work on your middos if you don’t have to worry about your spouse’s bad middos.

    #1093695

    charliehall
    Participant

    ?????? ?????, ??????? ????????: ??????? ???????-??????, ???? ??????????.

    The people who ask for pictures and dress sizes don’t pay attention to what they sing on Friday night.

    #1093696

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ????? ???????? ????? ???????, ????? ???????? ?????? ?????

    #1093697

    cinderella
    Member

    “But if I ask you what is the most important aspect of a car you are looking to buy, you don’t say 4 wheels.”

    Well yeah. Because it’s a given that the car has 4 wheels. You wouldn’t consider it if not. Same with middos.

    #1093698

    Wisey
    Participant

    Isn’t it obvious that PBA was just trolling (or joking) when he started this thread? Every half-brained person knows that middos are critical, if not the most critical factor. The moshol of the car makes it even more ridiculous. (From my experience I think that PBA has at least half a brain)

    #1093699

    MDG
    Participant

    <sarcasm>

    Midot means measurements.

    Some measure character traits, some measure dress sizes, some measure bank accounts, some measure cars, some measure prestige, etc…

    Therefore we all are into midot. Each of us with our own preferences of midot.

    </sarcasm>

    #1093700

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Wisey,

    I don’t think “half a brain” wisdom is what we should be using as a guide.

    I concur that people with half a brain would agree with you.

    #1093701

    Burnt Steak
    Participant

    Its better to have half a brain then half a Brian.

    #1093702

    mord13
    Member

    If your spouse does not have good middos how do you build house if the spouse doesnt respect people then why is she going to respect you?

    #1093703

    There is a fundamental diff between one who respects others in the outside world and one who respects a spouse.one who respects outsiders is one who has a positive attitude in general thus translating into positive outlook towards others, however in a relationship, sometimes a man has to provide a reason to get his not-so-happy-go-lucky-inclined wife to respect “him” In particular.

    #1093704

    I’m not suggesting that it’s the husbands lack of kindness etc. , rather that although she by nature doesnt see it in others there is a way to allow her to see it in you. Whether to employ kind manipulation or not a competent maven must be consulted.

    #1093705

    MTAB
    Participant

    middos are most important

    however, today generally middos aren’t so good anywhere

    the actor fred astaire said half a century ago, “The hardest job kids face today is learning good manners without seeing any.”

    so don’t expect perfection ,just somebody who values good middos and works towards it

    #1093706

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    If wishing somebody has good middos is not an absolute requirement, the person in question needs to have their head examined.

    The good news is that virtually everybody has good middos, if you take this statement to mean that they are generally disposed to act kindly. At least, this is my rose tinted, naive view of the world. Good middos does not mean having perfect middos. A person with good middos, and a generally good nature, can occasionally not behave as such.

    So in summation, if somebody is searching for a perfect spouse in the middoz department, they are likely to be disappointed. But requiring that somebody is generally good natured and kind, is, for most people, crucial. Unless, of course, they themselves are horrible. If only there was a specific shadchan service for mean people. It could be the real answer to the shidduch crisis.

    #1093707

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    NeutiquamErro, you didn’t say how it matters.

    #1093708

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Well done, Sherlock. I also didn’t point out that reality may be a projection of our subconscious in order to provide a medium through which our surroundings may be comprehensible, or that the sky is generally blue and the moon rarely is. Because that wasn’t the point I was making.

    #1093709

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    So what point were you making, Albert?

    #1093710

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    The one written above.

    If you find yourself somehow unable to actually scroll up the several inches it would take to read this, then the point I was making above is that good middos is a vague term and covers most people, and is certainly a requirement for reasons I hope I need not enumerate. But perfect, or unfeasibly good middos, as in a person who never acts in any manner other than perfectly good natured, is unatainable. Basically, the term ‘Good Middos’, when used in the context of shidduchim, can basically be replaced with, ‘Not Horrible’. And this is hopefully the last I’ll speak of the matter.

    #1093711

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    You do need to enumerate to answer the question. I read your post but thought I had misread it because it is not relevant to the topic.

    #1093712

    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Ok then, it wasn’t necessarily in the same vein as every other answer. Shoot me.

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