Shidduchim: Why is everybody lying and is it ok?

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  • #698122
    Moq
    Member

    right! we need a kol koreh for boys to be attracted to average girls!

    That would work!

    Come on, these boys didn’t make this up; society conditioned them this way. If we wouldn’t be exposed to 24/7 to these standards – both in our community and from the secular world,we would have lower standards. But until we fix our tzinius problem and stop exposing ourselves to the entire secular world – well, this is the standard our girls will be held at. And then,

    But after twenty years of conditioning about what acceptable beauty is, what on earth do you want from the guy? Indeed, attraction is not a choice. It either is or isn’t. Granted, if a date is not replusive, sometimes, over a few dates they can seem more attractive if there is real chemistry elsewhere. And sometimes not.

    Yes, the current standards are silly, and are a direct influence from the secular world (and the wonderful frum world of fashion) – but by the time a boy gets to shidduchim, they are real.

    And yes, it gives a stunning girl a tremendous advantage in shidduchim that can cover up almost any chesaron – until after the chuppah, of course.

    R’ Eliyahu Goldschmidt (Dear Son/Daugther) opens up his shidduchim tape with admonishing boys to be honest with themselves about looks ‘one may not marry a woman without seeing her – perhaps he will find something ugly about her and come to despise her’.

    But look to the causes, not the boys.

    Looks – for both men & women, are important and real. Build a relationship on it? heck no. But when there is a real relationship, they are certainly important. It’d be wonderful to pretend that it’s shallow. Let us not get into a quote battle.

    Girls have standards too; true, they aren’t as visual as boys, but many ask how tall a boy is – gee, isn’t that shallow.

    I suppose they need a kol korey, too.

    And if a boy sees that a girl – wonderful as she may be – doesn’t cut it in the looks department , no matter what – should he torment her for a second date? And if he says no, should he say ‘she looks at a dying rat’ or should he say ‘what a fine girl; I’m sure she’s a wonderful match for my Chavrusa – for me, we pashut didn’t click’


    Shadchan, by the way, have always lied. It is traditional – in a sad way. The Rashbah permits Shadchanim to take money on this basis – after all, shidduchim are a mitzvah, and hence should be forbidden to charge for – ‘but they lie, and that is not a mitzvah, and for that they take money’. So this problem goes way back.

    #698123
    bpt
    Participant

    I think its along the same lines as the “lack of respect” thread. It starts with ones self

    People lie to themselves (meaning they kid themselves about their true ability and suppress their true goals / ambitions) so by extension, they feel that its ok to lie.

    #698124
    smartcookie
    Member

    Abuse in the family usually goes to the kids. I would be VERY SCARED to touch such a family.

    Kids who were abused, will USUALLY abuse their own spouse/kids even though they look and act like very fine people from the outside.

    #698125
    WIY
    Member

    Moq

    Fantastic post. You speak to the point.

    #698126
    Miriam
    Member

    Lying always comes back to bite you!

    #698127

    What I learned from this thread: Not everybody lies. (At least, if they do, they don’t say so.)

    There’s hope for my shidduchim!

    #698128
    aries2756
    Participant

    I think children need to hear their fathers tell their mothers that they are beautiful. Fathers need to say it out loud. They need to say to their wives and to their children “look how beautiful imah is” even when she is not dressed up for a chasunah, even when she is not wearing make-up, even when she is not looking her best.

    Parents need to instill in their children that beauty is not necessarily equal to a cover model, or a size two, or perfection. But beauty comes from within, it could be the smile the lights up the room, the compassionate eyes, or something else that a parent can point out to a child.

    #698129

    aries: that’s beautiful.

    #698130
    Health
    Participant

    mw13- This is who the “we” is:

    “We may be too into looks, money, etc,”

    #698131
    mw13
    Participant

    Moq: Well said, great post. Also, since you brought it up: I find it ironic that many who bash boys for being too into a girl’s size/looks will have nothing to say of the common practice of asking a boy’s height. Shouldn’t they be equally distasteful?

    aries2756:

    “I think children need to hear their fathers tell their mothers that they are beautiful. Fathers need to say it out loud. They need to say to their wives and to their children “look how beautiful imah is” even when she is not dressed up for a chasunah, even when she is not wearing make-up, even when she is not looking her best.”

    I don’t know, that sort of establishes attractiveness as something important in a spouse. Probably better to complement her on her middos.

    Health: Touche. I should’ve said “some of us may be too into looks, money, etc.”

    #698132
    aries2756
    Participant

    mw13, attractiveness IS something important in a spouse. The point is what one considers attractive. Is it her chein? Is it her smile? Is it her eyes? Is it the way her eyes laugh when she is telling a joke? Or is it makeup, the newest hairstyle, hat or sheitel? Is it the slimmest she could possibly be, or the latest fashion or color of the week? Or is it the way she holds her head high when she walks into a room, or the way she always smiles when she looks at her children? Is it her posture and self confidence is it her generosity and gentle ways? What makes her beautiful? What makes him handsome? Is it that special gleam in his eyes when he bentches his children before Shabbos?

    #698133
    mw13
    Participant

    I hear what you’re saying. However, I think it’s not worth pointing out physical beauty in general, rather we should pass on the attitude that physical beauty is of little, if any, significance. This attitude is best expressed by not talking about the physical at all.

    #698134
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    aries:

    I am getting confused. Attraction of the type I thought we were talking about, cannot be changed to an attraction to something else other than what we are talking about. (Yes, I am being vague to get through the moderators)

    If you do not think that attraction is necessary, we can debate that.

    #698135
    charliehall
    Participant

    To those who disagreed with my earlier post:

    I have never, ever heard of a non-Jew refusing to date someone because her family didn’t have money. Not once. WE are the people who value materialism over midot.

    And we are hypocrites when we bemoan the non-Jewish culture’s overemphasis on sex while overly defending sexual attraction when our own children consider marriage partners.

    #698136
    Sacrilege
    Member

    Height is completely different than looks!

    As someone who is taller than the average Jewish male, I feel extremely uncomfortable dating someone shorter than me (and the guys feel the EXACT same way)

    It is rare that you find a short girl who is makpid on a tall guy, but in that scenario is would be the same as a guy being makpid on looks, maskim.

    #698137
    Moq
    Member

    Charlie-

    Right. Our kids sleep with an average of 12 people before they settle down. Wait, no, that’s the secular world. Charlie, we’re talking about two different ballgames. I don’t think this is even worth arguing about.

    And of course non-jews don’t care about money when they are dating. They intend on having fun and moving on, not marrying her. Does money make in a difference in the secular world – when they marry? Sure. Never heard of a gold digger?

    But most of their dating has nothing to do with marrying. So you hear about it a lot less. Guys ideal of a girl is equivalent to kleenex – use once & throw away. Sorry charlie. We must be better then the secular world. Faaaar better. And we indeed need to raise our – as a society, as I pointed out before, not just jump on the unsuspecting male after twenty years of exposure. Change society, change the boys. But once shidduchim role around, it’s too late. Time for him to honest – because if you pressure him into being dishonest, it will be hell for him and his wife.

    But please don’t say we’ve come to the level of the cesspool. Remember – we actually MARRY! All this is about choosing a single partner for life. Yes, a guy gets one chance. Not seventy five.

    Yisrael Kedoshim Hem – that doesn’t mean ignoring attraction. It means right place & the right time Al yedey chuppah v’kiddushin. An attitude that attraction is evil mess up marriage royally, and is the opposite of Torah haskafah. It’s a maaleh. It’s not the whole deal, but it’s real.


    Sacri –

    right. You need a certain image (aka, taller then you) to be able to look at them as marriage material. Same for a guy. ‘Totally different’ just means that you feel that way and understand it. Well, that way – well, that’s how a guy feels. And please realize that this is not something that someone in shidduchim can change and feels ‘extremely uncomfortable’ about. Still real though. Would you feel comfortable saying ‘I dumped him ’cause he’s short’ or would you say ‘what a Ben Torah! I’m sure he’s destined for gadlus. I think Rivky my roommate from sem would be great for him – for me, we just didn’t click’.

    And would you prefer people be honest with you beforehand?

    And would you prefer that people didn’t lie to you and say ‘well, go out on seventy dates and then see how you feel’?

    The male brain is as much of a mystery to women as the female brain is to men. We need to respect them, and not criticize the other for being male/female, and just accept the mysteries of the universe. Alas, in todays day and age, it’s the reality. But Charedi in Israel – it’s not; boys aren’t as obsessed with look. Because they don’t have the society we have.

    There is actually a concept of a female dressing casually in Israel! And they keep the secular out of their societies and homes.

    So their boys are exposed to females who willing to look like mere mortals in public. Hence, they can actually marry a girl – who , well, looks like a regular girl.


    Yes mods, I know we’re treading on dangerous ground. Let us know where the line is – or was.

    #698138
    Sacrilege
    Member

    Moq- you are all over the place, trying to catch a single sentence with you…

    “You need a certain image (aka, taller then you) to be able to look at them as marriage material. Same for a guy.”

    They don’t need to be taller, just not shorter 😛

    I do not think this a lot to ask, I think the majority of people will agree this is “normal”

    Marriage Material. Nowadays many guys ask for a picture before going on a date, honestly I have no problem with that (besides I get to see before we meet how vain you are) but then I get back that its not what they are looking for… Right, because 5’2 with blonde hair makes a better wife than 5’9 with brown hair… Seriously.

    #698139
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    We all have our “items” – for some people its height, for others its hair color (like no redheads!)

    I think its fair to have a few specifics but not fair to say “I won’t date a woman who weighs more than 130 lbs soaking wet, has brown hair, has any freckles, is taller than 5’4″, non-athletic build, bunions, large knuckles, large ears, pointy nose, removed tonsils and has a unibrow (whether or not she waxes).” There comes a point where its just ridiculous.

    #698140
    Sacrilege
    Member

    SJS – In all honesty I really dont care that guys or girls (for that matter) make all these crazy demands. Its their right. I just think its ridiculous to complain about a “crisis” that is man-made.

    #698141
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I just think its ridiculous to complain about a “crisis” that is man-made.

    Man made? I don’t think its fair to call it man made. People’s weight is controlled by many factors, and some of them are really out of one’s realm.

    #698142
    charliehall
    Participant

    “But please don’t say we’ve come to the level of the cesspool.”

    That a boy would refuse a date with a girl just because her parents aren’t wealthy or because her height or dress size is unacceptable — no matter how good are her brains or midot — is something that is contrary to everything we are supposed to value. It is PRECISELY the very objectification of women that we claim to decry. We talk the talk but we don’t walk the walk and we adopt the worst of the non-Jewish culture, not the best.

    #698143
    Sacrilege
    Member

    “People’s weight is controlled by many factors, and some of them are really out of one’s realm.”

    Who said any thing about weight? And in case you havent notice this “crisis” affects not only those who are over-weight.

    #698144
    theprof1
    Participant

    The shidduchim crisis isn’t man-made, it’s real. But the basis for the crisis is man-made, and woman-made. The girls and boys who get engaged “on-time” are the ones who are reasonable and aren’t looking for a spouse with a shopping list of demands. The majority of our children do get married withour major problems. Those who end up falling into the “crisis” are the ones who are etched in stone demanders of perfection. Hey ladies and gentleman wake up. Nobody is perfect. The ideal of a Mr. or Ms. Right is goyish. I don’t mean looking for a beautiful girl or handsome boy. That’s a natural human concept and has no issur in hashkofo at all. It becomes wrong if made into a very main point, instead of looking at a beautiful character. From many many anectodal conversations that I’ve had with crisis members I’ve seen that their demands are far far too demanding and unreasonable. I’ve spoken to 45 year old guys who insist on a beautiful 21 year old girl. Hey guy have you looked at yourself lately. That’s shallow.

    #698145
    Sacrilege
    Member

    “It is PRECISELY the very objectification of women that we claim to decry”

    CLAIM. Is the key word. This is not the only area of Ultra Orthodoxy that is hypocritical.

    Yes, I am Ultra-Orthodox, doesnt mean I cant call my own kind out when I deem fit.

    #698146
    theprof1
    Participant

    The hypocracy of ultra-orthodoxy is man-made. There is nothing in the religious aspect that is hypocritical. Of course you have a full right to call it out if you see anything wrong.

    #698147
    charliehall
    Participant

    “I’ve spoken to 45 year old guys who insist on a beautiful 21 year old girl. “

    I was 47 when I married my wife; she was 45. I can’t understand why any 21 year old would have been interested in someone my age.

    #698148
    Sacrilege
    Member

    “The shidduchim crisis isn’t man-made, it’s real. But the basis for the crisis is man-made, and woman-made.”

    Um, by definition Man-Made means: Made by humans rather than occurring in nature. Meaning, Hash-m makes everyones shidduch if you choose not to accept that shidduch that is on you. (Maybe you thought I meant dreamt up? I didnt.)

    “The girls and boys who get engaged “on-time” are the ones who are reasonable and aren’t looking for a spouse with a shopping list of demands.”

    I am actually going to take the liberty of taking personal offence to that. Did you ever realize that Hash-m actually is the one who runs the world? It isnt in everyones plans to get married at 18 and a half.

    #698149
    Sacrilege
    Member

    “The hypocracy of ultra-orthodoxy is man-made”

    Maskim. But, if you represent that group and you are a hypocrite, then multiply that by 1,000’s… We have a problem.

    #698150
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The shidduchim crisis isn’t man-made, it’s real. But the basis for the crisis is man-made, and woman-made. The girls and boys who get engaged “on-time” are the ones who are reasonable and aren’t looking for a spouse with a shopping list of demands. The majority of our children do get married without major problems. Those who end up falling into the “crisis” are the ones who are etched in stone demanders of perfection.

    This assertion is so absurd, I don’t think anyone will even find it hurtful.

    If you’d said “some”, or even “many”, there could be a reasonable discussion on the merits.

    #698151
    myfriend
    Member

    I think a reasonable reading of theprof1’s comment makes it obvious he means some or many rather than “all” (as in every last one) — which would not only be an unreasonable assertion – it would be unreasonable to read such an unreasonable thought into the comment.

    #698153
    Moq
    Member

    That a boy would refuse a date with a girl just because her parents aren’t wealthy or because her height or dress size is unacceptable — no matter how good are her brains or midot — is something that is contrary to everything we are supposed to value. It is PRECISELY the very objectification of women that we claim to decry. We talk the talk but we don’t walk the walk and we adopt the worst of the non-Jewish culture, not the best.”


    “Unacceptable” – why? Where on earth did that come from? Can a marriage run on ‘middot & brains’ – without attraction? Sorry, it’d be nice to condemn orthodoxy for that, but it silly. It’s called being human. These factors are part of attraction; you could argue the young man shouldn’t rely on these objective factors and see for himself – fine. But attraction is important, and does not make us hypocritical.

    Find something else to condemn the religious world for.

    Yes, our boys want to be attracted to their wives whom they will be faithful to till death. No, merely brains & middos alone won’t cut it.

    That makes up hypocritical? Silly silly.

    Of course, there is the real danger of marrying someone for their looks alone – which promises hell in marriage and ultimately repulsion. But brains & middos ain’t do it either if he (or she!) isn’t attracted to him or her.

    If you marry someone you find ugly, later you & them will suffer. Tis a fact. It’s not objectification. Objectification would be – say – well, a 24/7 media selling everything with ____. Not a culture that is only interested in attraction for marriage. I consider that to be a light unto the nations.

    (And money has been discussed elsewhere , so I’m going to leave it alone.)


    Sacri-

    “Marriage Material. Nowadays many guys ask for a picture before going on a date, honestly I have no problem with that (besides I get to see before we meet how vain you are) but then I get back that its not what they are looking for… Right, because 5’2 with blonde hair makes a better wife than 5’9 with brown hair… Seriously.”

    Again, you don’t understand the male brain. If that’s his hangup, it’s his hangup. And you won’t understand. But it’s real for him. He wants a petite girl. Shoen, it’s his meshugas. But it’s real meshugas. He watched on TV, saw it in the street & at chasunas and we’ve programmed him. Seriously.

    I think asking for a picture is usually in the girl’s favor (gives her a chance to attract him w/o all the objective factors) – but I didn’t know it became common in frum circles – has it?

    SJS is right though, not that insisting on attraction is silly – indeed all have our ‘items’ (points for the euphemism), but having an exact image of what you will be attracted to is.

    Now, certain factors I could understand, but some indeed go into the realm of stupid. But usually I think that’s not the case. I guys have a basic image of who they can be seriously attracted to, which is accurate. One could argue that it’s still worth a date, but a boy would reply that he has a list three miles long anyway (so why not have some filtering questions, because anyways they are all the same on paper).

    And once they are at that point, they need to look for that. People are different, and shouldn’t deny that. Shidduchim is not time for spiritual growth; it’s time for realism.

    #698154
    yitzy99
    Member

    “…we adopt the worst of the non-Jewish culture, not the best… .”

    What is troubling is that some of this behavior is being institutionalized and legitimized.

    #698155
    charliehall
    Participant

    ” He wants a petite girl. Shoen, it’s his meshugas. But it’s real meshugas.”

    I want a crabcake. It is my meshugas. But it is as contrary to Judaism as is objectifying women — or treating prospective marriage partners as bank vaults. You are justifying something that is anti-Torah.

    #698156
    WIY
    Member

    charliehall

    From Revach.net

    Parshas Vayeitzei – Vilna Gaon On The Value Of Physical Beauty

    The pasuk (Vayeitzei (29:17) praises Rochel’s beauty. Why, asks the Vilna Gaon, surely Yaakov the Bechir HaAvos did not marry Rochel for her good looks?

    He answers that Yaakov definitely married Rochel to have children to fulfill Hashem’s wishes. He chose Rochel because of her stellar character. However, says the Vilna Gaon, do not dismiss the value of beauty. It has great value in keeping one’s husband naturally focused. The gemara in Taanis (23a) tells us that Abba Chilkiya’s wife would greet him, all made up.

    However, says the Vilna Gaon, the torah only praises beauty of an Isha Yiras Hashem. Only if she is truly an Eishes Chayil is her beauty praiseworthy. This is the meaning of the pasuk ‘Sheker Hachen V’Hevel HaYofi”, charisma is deceitful and beauty is nonsense, if that is the woman’s only claim to fame. “Isha Yiras Hashem”, however if she is a Yiras Hashem then, “He” her beauty, “Tis’halal” is also praiseworthy.

    This also explains the gemara in Taanis (31a) that there were four kinds of girls. The pretty ones would say to the boys, “look at my beauty”. The ones from good families would say that marrying them will yield good children. The rich ones would flaunt their money. The less than good looking ones would say, “Marry me L’Shem Shamayim, but make sure to drape me in gold.” Why was marrying these girls “L’Shem Shamayim” since they obviously weren’t from good families? And why should they be draped in gold?

    He answers that these girls would say that the boys should ignore the trivial reasons for marriage and marry a girl for nothing other than to fulfill Hashem’s command. But since you are humans and not malachim, just drape us in gold and you will have both, your L’Shem Shamayim and a nice looking wife.

    #698157
    HadaLXTP
    Member

    To say that someone is vain because they ask for a picture is ridiculous to some extent and unfair. Attraction is not on looks alone. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I personally have gone out with “gorgeous, absolutely beautiful and really good looking” to some yes , but not me. That’s reason I ask for a picture, but not always do I ask for one. I have been fooled too many times unfortunately.

    Ah gut K’vittel too all of Klal Yisroel!

    #698158
    Sacrilege
    Member

    “Yes, our boys want to be attracted to their wives whom they will be faithful to till death. No, merely brains & middos alone won’t cut it.

    That makes up hypocritical? silly silly”

    It makes you hypocritical, when you have symposiums and wag your head at how mad the outside world has filtered into our lives. It makes you a hypocrite when you blast woman for being un-tzniusdik and being too attracting. It makes you hypocritical when you can only wear a white shirt and black pants because that is a “uniform” of a Jew and the outside isnt the ikkar. Want more examples?

    I dont claim that you dont have to be attracted to your spouse but does your #1 criteria have to be, she/he has to make me feel a certain way (keeping this kosher).

    “I think asking for a picture is usually in the girl’s favor (gives her a chance to attract him w/o all the objective factors)”

    Objective Factors… Like what, a personality? A sense of humor? A brain? Really, I feel sorry for him, he may be subjected to that.

    #698159
    NotABochurAnymore
    Participant

    charliehall – how can you compare physical attraction to crabcake? Why not a burger at KD or a steak? where in the torah does it say you can’t have a pretty wife? yes, beauty ideally should be based MAINLY on personality and middos but as Moq said, the physical attraction is a REALITY. perhaps it is unfortunate but still a reality. and don’t pick on the fact that he used the word mishugas. what he means is that it is certainly not the way Moshe Rabbeinu would have looked for a wife, but then again Moshe wouldn’t have set foot into any of the restaurants we have hear either. does that make the restaurants silly and against Judaism? perhaps in a very ideal world, but unfortunately we live in America in 2010. Sorry folks.

    theprof1 – your attitude that any person who isn’t married at the tender age of 21 (ok, that was an exaggeration. you probably meant 23 or 24) has unreasonable demands is preposterous. I hate to be melodramatic but there is something wrong with your emunah and you stink of apikorsus. Does Hashem have no say in this? The Kli Yakar says by Eliezer when he found a wife for Yitzchak that although by money one can make excuses and rationalize why the wealthy are wealthy, when it comes to shidduchim it is clear that Hashem is in control precisely because so many great people take long to get married and so many people with a lot left to be desired are married early. I personally am a bochur who is older than 23-24 and i can tell you that I am one of the least picky people in the world. When I go out with a person who has a flaw, whether in looks, personality, even frumkeit, I give them a chance and look for every drop of chein I can and discuss with my rosh yeshiva how to go about it. It is people like you who make the parsha of shidduchim so difficult and painful. People like me are always being made to feel like there is something wrong with us. Sorry to be so upset but unfortunately there are many theprof1’s out there and it is very frustrating.

    #698160
    Moq
    Member

    Charlie –

    I think I’ve been adequately clear. One will not find that it is forbidden to marry a petite girl.

    If I have a meshugas to eat chinese food, I may not be critized for desiring glatt kosher chinese food. Even though I may not eat trief shrimp, even if I have a meshugas for it.

    #698161
    Moq
    Member

    Sacri-

    First of all, with all due respect, chill.

    Secondly, let me respond to your points one by one.


    It makes you hypocritical, when you have symposiums and wag your head at how mad the outside world has filtered into our lives.

    Exactly! This is what I said over and over again – and THIS IS A SYMPTON! But now it’s real, it’s here, and we can’t ignore it. If we get the mad secular world out of our five year olds brains, the next generation will be different! But we can’t deny the current – SAD UNFORTUNATE WISH IT WEREN’T THIS WAY – reality! It’s not hypocrisy; this is exactly the reason we make symposiums!Because we hope that later things will be different if we change things now. But ten years ago apparently we didn’t get the job done; look at what our boys are asking for! Quick , symposium. Not hypocrisy. Pragamatism. This is exactly what we want to change.

    But we ain’t gonna change it by making miserable marriages.


    “It makes you a hypocrite when you blast woman for being un-tzniusdik and being too attracting.”

    =-

    Again, this is what I said – this is a symptom! Women dress the way they do, and our boys get that image in their heads – THIS IS WHY WE BLAST THEM! (And yes, it’s sad cycle, boys ‘demand’, girls ‘comply’, and it only gets worse – chicken or the egg? etc. etc. etc.) But hypocrisy? Why? Why? Why?


    ” It makes you hypocritical when you can only wear a white shirt and black pants because that is a “uniform” of a Jew and the outside isnt the ikkar. Want more examples?”

    Yes, our girls are more focused on penimius; B”H (though many are not). And more power to them. And they will profit in their marriages in a way that the boys won’t, by being able to marry a boy who is more average- but will respect and take care of them far more then – well, yeshivish Tom Cruise.

    But are you complaining about hypocrisy? Or just anger at a sad reality? In which case I am angry too – I just won’t blame the boys, and won’t ignore reality when redting a shidduch.

    (which is ok too, you are entitled to vent that average otherwise wonderful girls are ignored because our boys have been brainwashed by the media & ‘frum’ fashion – that’s true and worth venting over.

    But it’s also reality, and we need to deal with as it is now – it’s not a question of blame – and dress more modest, and seal out the outside world, for the next crop of shidduchim, so that this won’t happen anymore).

    We have to deal with the sad facts on the ground, and hope that they change in the future if we work on the underlying causes and not get obessed with the symptoms. Yes, we have a problem.

    #698162
    Sacrilege
    Member

    Moq – it is a desperate attempt when you try to demean you opponent.

    Good try though.

    #698163
    WIY
    Member

    Sacrilege

    I have been controlling myself for some time now but I must protest for Moqs honor. Moq has not demeaned you in any way. If anything he has been very respectful to you and it is you who seems to have a hard time being respectful of others either as individuals or groups. Quite a few of your posts are caustic, negative, angry and derisive and if you are in shidduchim then it may explain why you have as yet failed to find the right guy. Guys are very turned off by girls with such “attitude.”

    #698164
    Moq
    Member

    Sacri-

    I’m sorry; I don’t see how I demeaned you; could you point out what I wrote that insulted you? I can assure you none was intended.

    #698165
    WIY
    Member

    Moq

    “I’m sorry; I don’t see how I demeaned you; could you point out what I wrote that insulted you? I can assure you none was intended.”

    You havent demeaned her or anybody else. Shes making this personal because she cant intellectually debate you.

    #698166
    Sacrilege
    Member

    WIY –

    “Quite a few of your posts are caustic, negative, angry and derisive and if you are in shidduchim then it may explain why you have as yet failed to find the right guy”

    The only reason why you find them negative is because they disagree with you. As this is “Yeshiva World” News, admittedly I generally do not agree with the “Yeshivish” attitude.

    Oh, and a little tip, never tell someone why they arent married. I know the exact reason, Hash-m hasnt deemed it the rite time for me.

    #698167
    Moq
    Member

    Let me try again…

    I have erred. I should have realized that this could have been a deep sensitive issue for some – something which I look at intellectually, because I have not been in shidduchim for a long time, and B”H did not spend long there. Hashem has tested me in other ways, but not that way. So I lack sensitivity. I look at shidduchim intellectually. I write my opinions for mental relaxation, a break from my demanding work.

    Others may be more sensitive, and my intellectual, facts on the ground on the approach – can be deeply hurtful if you are in the midst of shidduchim, and the cruelty that it often brings. My justifications to such a person would feel hurtful. Right or wrong. I too would be caustic about the issue. I too would be sharp & angry. I too would feel insulted.

    I should have picked on the clues that this was personal all along.

    Unfortunately, shidduchim can be almost dehumanizing for girls in our society. That certainly generates very real resentment – if not at the boys, or at the system – or at an all too clear and relentless poster in an internet forum who forgets to realize that for some this is no intellectual exercise.

    This being the case, I certainly apologize. I am sorry sacriledge. I did not approach this issue with due sensitivity. I hope you forgive me. And if you are indeed in shidduchim, I doubly apologize, and certainly hope that you find your zivug soon.

    And I hope, friends, while I appreciate you sticking up for me, you will not err as did I.

    #698169
    Sacrilege
    Member

    Moq – Thank you for the apology, although unnecessary, very noble and appreciated.

    Water off a ducks back. Don’t lose any sleep over it on my account.

    #698170
    aries2756
    Participant

    Halachacly speaking a couple must be attracted to each other and not eckeled by each other in order for it to be a shidduch. Having said that, no one really knows what will attract one person to another. Take a look out on your main avenue and see who Hashem has put together. We can have a good hardy laugh because in many cases we would never have thought of putting together many of the couples WE see, and we wonder how the shadchan ever thought of the shiduch. My husband’s partner went out with at least 100 girls before he settled for his wife. This was over 30 years ago. He claimed he was marrying the richest and the pretties. Now please have in mind that I have nothing against his wife and she is quite a nice and lovely person but she was neither wealthy nor gorgeous, and certainly not the “wealthiest” and most “beautiful” that he had dated.

    As far as lists are concerned, one rarely gets whats on their lists, because after all Hashem is in charge. So the search for the prettiest, skinniest, tallest, etc leads people to long and lonely lives alone.

    My son (who is B”H married with a couple of kids) happens to be 6′ tall (which is rare in today’s generation of young boys) and a pretty good looking young man at that. Since he was 19 years old people were chasing me with shidduchim “what is he looking for” and I kept saying he is not looking for “fluff”. They looked at me as if I was nuts and asked me what I meant. I told him looks are not the most important thing to him. He doesn’t want a ditzy dame who bats her eyelashes at him ands says “honey, the milchig fork fell into the fleishig sink what should I do?” He would lose his mind and probably answer her “that’s your job, mine is to go out and make a parnasah and yours is to understand how to run the home. Ask your mother or mine, or call a Rav!” That is what’s important to him, to have a wife with a brain, someone that can keep up with him and have intelligence and smarts.

    B”H, he got both beauty and smarts probably because he wasn’t looking for it.

    #698171
    bpt
    Participant

    I think children need to hear their fathers tell their mothers that they are beautiful

    Good point Aries (and thanks for making it)

    While I do express my apprication in deeds, time / money spent and helping around the house, I do not say so verbaly and perhaps I should start. Striking a balance between too much (which would be embarressing) and too little (the current state of affairs) will be tricky, but worth the effort.

    Again, thanks.

    #698172
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    aries:

    I admire your son’s good sense.

    Although it is obvious, I think it is important to spell out that you discussed it with your son, and these were his instructions.

    All too often, parents represent their own wishes as those of their child’s.

    #698173
    Midwest2
    Participant

    Whew! Talk about heated discussions! Makes me very happy that I don’t have kids in shidduchim these days.

    My two cents: How are boys supposed to know about what is important and what isn’t when they’ve hardly ever seen their parents since the age of 14-15? In Europe very few boys – and then only the “prodigies” – were sent away from home at such a young age. Kids learn how to be adults by observing the adults around them. If there are only a few adults around them, and those only the rebbeim in class, they aren’t going to get much input. Of course they don’t know what’s important. When did they ever get a chance to learn? If you live in NY and not in Oshkosh why are you sending the boys away? Don’t kid yourself, if they’re dorming they’re being raised by each other, not by their parents, and those of us who survived the ’60’s know where that leads.

    Also, if the boys are at home during most of their teenage years their parents will have a much more realistic view of what their little darlings are like, and hopefully won’t be so inclined to look for Miss Perfect. They might also have a better idea of what would make the boy happy, rather than a “list” just like everyone else’s.

    Let’s look at what Europe was *really* like, instead of our fantasies, and try to grow a healthier Torah-based society that isn’t half borrowed from the goyim and half from dreams of what never was.

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