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Yes, Well said, AviraDeArah, you got my vote, you are 100% right with your statement, it is simple FACT!!! And I will just repeat your words, without adding ingredients,
So, we should lower a tznius standard? Get men and women to mingle instead of having intermediaries?
See tiferes Yisroel on the Mishnah in r”h about the women congregating on Yom Kippur and tu b’av – he says it is unthinkable that such practices would happen in the mainstream, and that this was for people who were struggling to find a shidduchim.
I have a better solution. Bucherim should have better middos and women should stop reading romance novels and tossing away good shidduchim when they do not automatically “feel” sparks flying.
People used to get married without even dating, and it worked simply fine.
Chasidim still do, and they have far fewer divorces than us lutvish who date. It cannot be all wiped away with “that’s because it’s a taboo” – what is the proof of that?
FACT. FACT. FACT!Your friends, and your parents’ friends, could be intermediaries. Mine were.
Well said.
Yasher Koach
In year 2005 CE, an Orthodox Rabbi in Florida held a wedding with mixed seating.
The results of this wedding: 3 Orthodox Jewish men met 3 Orthodox Jewish women, and they married them, and had children from them, and sent their children to yeshivahs.
If that wedding did not have mixed seating, then the 3 Orthodox Jewish men would not have met the 3 Orthodox Jewish women, who became their wives.
What I just described used to be the standard practice of most Orthodox Jews, including prominent Rabbis. Then weddings with mixed seating became unpopular, and nobody can understand how this contributes to the problems of Orthodox Jewish singles.
That old canard again?
OK. Yeah…
On that same vein… Lot (Avraham Avinu’s nephew) found a shidduch.. (actually it found him!) it brought about Mashiach… maybe we should also permit…
“That old canard again?”
Actually, according to the records of the catering firm in Florida (from 2002) it was cornish hen, not duck (a canard is a katshke in Francais’)
On a more serious note, having young men and women meet one another under normal social circumstances (such as at simchas) should be an option for some segments of the community while it certainly will not be an option for others where such interactions are deemed inappropriate. There is no single option that works for ALL.@AAQ
We have never dealt with shadchanim in our family, personal connections and fix ups.
My eldest daughter and SIL were introduced by a female Jewish law professor. They were in different classes but both had asked to be excused from a class on Sukkos. Engaged by Chanukah and married after Shavous.
SIL introduced me eldest son to sister of his roommate from Yeshiva. Another successful match.
I was so impressed by an applicant for a summer internship after first year of law school that I invited him
And parents for a Shabbos at CTL compound.
Married to daughter number 2 for over 20 years now.
Our children have been involved in Our grandchildren’s matches as well.
Much better than a stranger with a bunch of resumesGadol, there already are a lot of “singles events”, which aren’t very successful.
Square, do you believe that shidduchim are hashgocha protis? Do you believe in chazals story about shlomo hamelech seeing beuach hakodesh that his daughter was supposed to marry a pauper, so he put her in a castle with armed guards, to see how Hashem would make it happen? The poor man was flown by a largs bird and dropped on the castle roof!
Hashem would have arranged those matches without the wedding, and they probably would have had better marriages too.
Mixed weddings (not, chas veshalom during the dancing) were the norm and man6 gedolim had such weddings. Doesn’t mean they were happy about it (rav moshe writes about this) or that it should be brought back.
Rav moshe further writes that it’s assur to put a lady’s section on the same level of a shul as the men’s section if the shul previously had a balcony, because it’s assur to go down a level in tznius….same thing here.
Do you want to be among those who advocate for less kedushas, less tznius?
The Chareidi Olam intentionally makes it impossible for men and women to meet each other, even when there is no halachic obligation to do so.
Then, when there is a Shidduch Crisis, they cannot understand why.EXAMPLE 1: There is no halachic requirement to make it impossible for men and women to meet each other in kosher pizza stores, yet the Chareidi Olam has done exactly that, by decreeing that women cannot sit down to eat there, they can only take out food.
EXAMPLE 2: There is no halachic requirement to make it impossible for men and women to meet each other after shul, yet the Chareidi Olam has done exactly that, by decreeing that women leave shul 30 minutes early, so there is no chance of them speaking to men after shul.
EXAMPLE 3: There is no halachic requirement to make it impossible for men and women to meet each other in Touro College, yet the Chareidi Olam has done exactly that, by decreeing that women and men cannot sit in the same classrooms together, nor even attend on the same days. Touro College has male-only days and female-only days, to guarantee that they cannot meet each other. Touro College has also decreed that males cannot teach female classes.
None of these things are required by halachah, yet they are enforced by the the Chareidi Olam with great stringency, and anyone who dares to violate these decrees would become a ridiculed outcast.
Yet, I believe in Hashgocha Protis, but we cannot do things that intentionally make it impossible for men and women to meet each other, and then expect Hashgocha Protis to always overcome all obstacles.
Shiduchim was not a part of my family’s culture. As related above, women and men met organically, at simchas, community events. My husband and I met during chemo therapy. In my community boys and girls were permitted to play and talk with each other and learn to communicate with the opposite gender from an early age. One of my brothers married a woman he met at my cousin’s shabbos table. Another cousin was introduced to her future husband while working in a family members business.
Amil! You dare post such unscrupulous claims?! You risk the wrath of our myopic friends who cannot allow you to have done something in the past that they cannot allow to exist in the present! I fear for you. My best wishes for your safety.
ctl; most people i know dont use professional shadchonim either. no data on whether or not that’s a maalah. I still don’t know what drives you to continually speak about the wealth you have and the large family of wealthy people you raised.
maybe once mention what one of your children does besides make money and give it to jewish and non jewish charities?
square, do you think men and women congregating is always leshem shomayim? isnt it usually – actually, almost always – just to hang out and be untznius? thats why pizza stores and other hangouts are bad. they facilitate inappropriate relationships. the pizza stores arent holding singles events. if they did, it would be like the women on YK and tu baav; rare accomodations for rare circumstances.
“organically” – you mean they met based solely on their initial chemical reactions to one another and built a relationship around each others physical appearance, only for it to deteriorate once that appearance fades and/or the middos and hashkofda issues come out, leaving two people heartbroken and having wasted their time on a shidduch that never had potential – which could have been prevented had they used a shadchon/intermediary.
SQUARE: The Chareidi Olam has a much much less Shidduch Crisis than the non-Chareidi Olam. And within the Chareidi Olam, Chasidim, who have even greater stringencies on the inter-gender issues that you’re ranting about, have an even smaller Shidduch Crisis than other Chareidim who are less strict about it.
I still don’t know what drives you to continually speak about the wealth you have and the large family of wealthy people you raised.
maybe once mention what one of your children does besides make money and give it to jewish and non jewish charities?
O! M! G!
wow, what a thing to say! Dont forget the Rashi on the raven. Ouch.Commonsaychel – should I wait for you to call him out or should I just do it?
I need a break, you do the honors
Syag, tyvm for having my back. I suspect these males would find it immodest to communicate with we mortal females. I do agree with you about the ‘silent’ agunahs, I know of far too many in the RW (Most east of the Mississippi).
@Avira
I did not mention money or wealth in my comment.
The CTL compound came into existence out of necessity. Living OOT in a small town, building homes on land carved from our initial larger parcel allowed us to have a minyan in walking distance, a private eruv and a safe haven for our children and grandchildren each summer. It cost substantially less than housing and camp costs in NYC and its suburbs.
I have repeatedly talked about doing much of the building ourselves, and still do lots of the tasks. We had 3.5 inches of snow last night and I was out with a shovel clearing the walks and driveway so I could go to minyan in time for 6:30 davening today. I wasn’t waiting on a plow service to arrive.As for what do we do besides give charity. Lots of volunteering in both the Jewish and community world. My daughters and granddaughters did their stints babysitting at shul and setting up the weekly kiddush and Oneg Shabbos. They also helped Mrs. CTL OBM cook many a shul dinner and deliver shiva meals. Our sons have taught afternoon Civics ad History classes (at no charge) in the local day school.
For twenty-five years, I have run three times a year Blood drives for the American Red Cross. They are the only organization allowed to collect blood in Connecticut (you can’t go to a hospital and donate) AND, Connecticut is the ONLY state in the USA where blood is free for those who need it. Mrs. CTL needed 18 units in her final hospital stay and I am proud to have helped make sure ample blood supplies are available.BUT>>>>>>>>>>>>what is wrong with donating money??????????????
Shuls, schools, hospitals need donations to keep operating. So do soup kitchens, food banks, etc. Both here and abroad, especially EY.
I am not a doctor, I can’t treat you when you enter a hospital, BUT that Xray machine in Laniado may be one that I paid for. The local Rosh Yeshiva who is having a hard time meeting payroll or utility bills is not shy to call and request money over and above my annual contribution and I am proud to be able to help. There is little I need personally at this stage of life. All of a lifetime’s earnings and investments and generational wealth could not keep Mrs. CTL alive. Only KBH determined when her time on earth was up.
What I can tell you is that with the exception of Yahrzeit placques you will never find the CTL name on anything that recognizes a contribution or donation.
My father Z”L and grandfather Z”L taught us that it is in very poor taste to let people know what you give and even worse to make someone feel embarrassed that they can not give a similar amount or at all.
I remember from the time I was a child that presents were never opened in public. If attending a birthday party, my mother would take us from the room if presents were opened in front of others.I don’t owe you an explanation, but your attack called for a reply
AVD: Unclear why you are so consistently bitter regarding CR participants who have achieved a level of success and contribute to their communities while still adhering to a frum lifestyle. You are entitled to hold to your beliefs but your musar of others’ is really unwarranted.
CTL ,some things are just ok to ignore, do not think that any readers will take it seriously.
When we try to reconstruct “traditions”, I think we have a confusion here: some quote how it was in their families or around them, others claim halachik positions from previous generations that probably tried to make those real traditions closer to the halachik ideal. So, both are right.
As to realities, I mentioned here before R Moshe’s daughter’s shidduch according to my reconstruction of minor missing details: apparently she identified the boy in her college, found out that his father is on beis din with her father, approached the boy in the library with a chemistry question; after chemistry was identified, she hinted to her father; who approached the boys father, who, in turn, approached the son, who assured the father that shidduch is already a done deal.
It’s also proper to put ones name on plaques, המקדיש דבר לצדקה, מותר שיכתוב שמו עליו שיהא לו , says the rema, quoting the rashba.
in order to encourage others to give. Use a fake name if you’re worried about anivus, but if tzedaka is so important to you, might be a good idea to learn the halachos thereof, and not just go by aphorisms and “ethics”
@Avira
I can read and translate.
The quotation does not say “proper”
The word ‘Mutar’ as I learned it means permitted.Simply because something is permitted does not make it a ‘proper’ choice for everyone.
If a charity/organization/institution needs my money gift to encourage others to give, I would rather put up a matching fund grant to stimulate donations large or small. The matching funds will be listed as coming from Aleph Bet Gimel Charitable Trust, not CTL.
Better every dollar go to the need than to the bronze works making the plaques.Have you never seen a charity’s ad journal that lists a donation from anonymous? That doesn’t just mean they had blank space to fill, but some givers don’t want to be known publicly.
Have you ever seen starter checks? They have the account number but no account owner’s name in them? I have such checks that I use for Tzedaka. I can print copies of the paid checks on line for my accounting and tax records without the recipient knowing who gave the money.We have quite different opinions as to the manner in which we make charitable donations. The important thing is that we make the donation. We prefer humility and privacy
While we’re on the subject of shidducim, I met my wife on Jwed. After meeting with several top shadchanim suggested to me by rebbeim and friends, I realized rather quickly they weren’t interested in giving me the time of day (perhaps because I lost a parent as a teenager and don’t have an extensive social status or extended family). One shadchan who kept feeding my inbox with the most ridiculous resumes messaged me the same day I was engaged and asked who the shadchan was…
Sometimes only you know best, especially if no one else could care about your shidduch prospects.
There’s also more to my shidduch story, and there was tremendous hashgacha from Hashem on many occasions. But I just wanted to show that for some, it really is necessary to go and look for a wife on their own
Some of the rema’s quote got cut out – he says וראוי לעשות כן, it is proper to do so
Avira, it doesn’t seem you even know the basics of Mishna Berura. Can you remember back to one of our earliest interactions? You might want to change your username
Shimon, rema is not mishnah berurah.
I know. Your point?
Can we at least all agree that the current trend of Shadchanim and parents encouraging girls to get professional pictures to send around is absolutely disgusting and violates so many tzniyus issues it’s not even funny?
yserb, agreed! a bas yisroel’s picture doesn’t belong everywhere and to be sent around town for everyone to look at, to make jewish girls into beauty paegent contestants r”l
I think that in limited circumstances, when a boy or girl has a pet peeve physically that can be seen easily, once a shidduch is progressing towards a first date, it can be shared. but it’s not ideal
professional pictures are also setting singles up for disappointment; no one looks as good in real life as they do in such pictures, so the boy will feel cheated.
It only leads to more failed shidduchim
Oh well sure. That makes perfect sense! I mean all really mature, intelligent men ready for an adult nurturing relationship would feel cheated and drop a shidduch when the picture doesn’t match the person. Makes perfect sense to me. It must be the women’s career mindset cuz these guys sound like the perfect marriage prospects.
Yseribus: Agreed 100%.
Syag, it’s a natural, chemical reaction; when you have high expectations, and they’re shattered, it impacts the proceeding relationship.
Getting a man and woman together is hard enough as it is; any slight negativity powerfully impacts the possibility of that happening.
This is why chazal allow cosmetics for a kallah who is sitting shiva, so that the first image the husband has isn’t hurt by her mournful appearance.
Syag, it’s categorically forbidden to marry a woman that a man feels put off by physically; no matter how mature and nurturing he is.
@135847. I agree that by all means we should not have single men and women just mingling, but do you really believe that people should get married without dating? The Radak writes that the reason the imahos are all described as beautiful is because it is important that somebody is attracted to his wife. That is why the gemara says that you have to see your wife before you marry her- and this goes along with personality. You have to meet the girl first to see if you have an attraction to her- it is the only way your marriage will be good. If somebody finds their wife ugly or distasteful, he will not be capable of having a good relationship with her. Obviously, I am not saying that bochurim should date girls for multiple months like the goyim do, but they definitely should go out a few times (as is the norm) to be able to make sure that this is really the person who they think they can join together with to build a bayis ne’eman biyisrael. The idea is that before you get married, you decide this is somebody who you can build the bayis ne’eman and a relationship with, and after marriage, you really get to know eachother and grow the relationship.
– And @SQUAREROOT- I hope you realize that if we were to allow men and women to mingle at pizza stores and at shul kiddushim, then even if one out of every 20 men and women who mingled would get married, but the others might just mingle for fun, anf it would not lead to good things. And if the older singles are doing it, the teenagers will also start mingling in public places, which will lead to much worse things. In addidition, there are real halachos we have to deal with here: believe it or not, it is actually assur for a man to look at a woman who he is not married to.Syag, it’s categorically forbidden to marry a woman that a man feels put off by physically; no matter how mature and nurturing he is.
this was never the discussion
You have had lots of damning things to say about single women but you seem to have lots of excusals for men. If a man shows up at a date and the woman does not “match” her picture, he is welcome to be disappointed. If he’s shattered by it, then he isn’t worth much.
After his initial disappointment, he has 2 hours to get to know the woman, find out her personality, learn her strengths. If all he can think about is that she doesn’t match her picture than he is not ready for marriage. Period.20 years ago we went out without social media. The person called you and said, “she’s beautiful, really wonderful personality, sweet as sugar” etc. Or the male equivilant. and guess what? They usually weren’t. But if you were a grown up mature adult ready to marry, you spent the next hours learning who was sitting in front of you and how beautiful, sweet and wonderful they were. Or weren’t. If your male contemporaries can’t manage that, they are far from capable of having an actual grown up relationship.
Syag, every subtle negative feeling is detrimental to a shidduch and a marriage; one word, one facial expression, can have a lot of impact. So if a first impression is one of disappointment, coupled with the dishonesty of not being what she presented herself as, is damaging to a shidduch.
It has nothing to do with it “being on his mind” the whole date.
re: disappointment – cosmetics are allowed & encouraged, won’t they lead to a future disappointment?
so, just need to make sure that disappointment does not happen before people learn more about each other, as Syag says. Thus, the pictures should be as good as the cosmetics – and not better – to prevent early disappointment.All I know about cosmetics is from Gemora, and it says that cosmetics are different according to income (even as we try to make some of it affordable to the poorest ladies by allowing peddling cosmetics). Thus, a Talmid Chacham can see pictures and presume that cosmetics is of the same quality (see above) and thus make judgement – how long the shver will be able to support the learner.
That is a pretty lame response. Again, you seem to be willing to make contortions to defend men, even ones who see a nice picture and think dishonesty with their being shattered by disappointment, nebach.
Do you know what else makes it hard for men to build a relationship? Not being a mekabel.Aaq, it’s for that reason that it’s only until after they’re living together for a while that the choson can see her without makeup, without it harming his impression of her.
A dating picture of a woman is usually featuring her with her best looks e.g. dressed up and full makeup at a Simcha or other rehearsed photo. It’s safe to say that women don’t always look the way they are featured in Shidduch profiles. It can be a bit disappointing if the way she appeared looked different than the picture but it shouldn’t be a dealbreaker. A mature adult would know that the picture is for show and that she’ll probably not always have her hair done and have makeup on and if the girl looks ok still that he should give her a chance to know her before saying no on account of a picture.
Lakewhut- exactly
What’s lame about the way chazal view a chossons impression of the kallah, to the point that they suspended important gezeros to fit it?
You’re lacking subtlety and just saying that it’s fragility, and it shouldn’t be a deal breaker – i never said it’s a deal breaker, you put those words in my mouth, er, fingertips. What i said is that it’s harmful to the shidduch. I would never tell a boy to say no because of it.
“What’s lame about the way chazal view a chossons impression of the kallah,”
Chazal didn’t say that if the girl didn’t present as promised he would think she was dishonest and be shattered, that was you who said it and then you tried to bring chazal to support it, but it doesn’t.
“You’re lacking subtlety and just saying that it’s fragility, and it shouldn’t be a deal breaker”
Uh, no. I didn’t. I said that a mature adult who is ready for marriage will not respond in the manner you presented. And I stand by it. Changing around the words we wrote to be something chazal said is just you not wanting to ever say you misspoke or accept another opinion.
He didn’t say the guy would be shattered. He said his expectations would be shattered.
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