May 22, 2009 12:54 am at 12:54 am #646669May 22, 2009 1:23 am at 1:23 am #646670
kapusta: yeah seems so, it now has R’ in it! see thread url!May 22, 2009 2:32 am at 2:32 am #646671
wow— this site is like r’shlomo’s music …coming alive again! than kyou, pashute yid for all your wonderful words about r’shlomo.
To the critics- in truth, I decided long ago that i will ignore the “ketanei ha-emunah”, the small-minded people…..i am not here to judge-none of us can judge anyone- i am convinced that there are many people ,who did not necessarily live a Torahdig life- who are going straight to gan eden for what they did in helping jews in many circumstances…whether in the war, whether in defending the yidden living in israel (yes- daniel breslauer- you are living under the protection of all those mechallelei shabbos) and so- i just ignore whatever the small minded people say about r’shlomo. All I say is-look around and see how he influenced thousands of yidden to come back to yiddishkeit…
and his music is truly heavenly..BTW- I don’t know who r’mendel kaplan was but anyone saying that r’shlomo’s music makes him depressed never, ever attended a shabbos in 79th street or any other time and place that they sang his nussach and his songs…they are uplifting and they raise our spirits to the heavens….May 22, 2009 10:26 am at 10:26 am #646672NobodyMember
The original question was “what you think about his music, his Nussach hatefillah and, lastly, his derech in ahavas yisroel”
All the answers here have been as controvosial as the man himself. His music had / has great followers and those who don’t particularly like it. His method of kiruv was also controvosial – some agreed with his derech and others not.
However he did have a great love of Hashem which he showed in his own inimitable way.
I did not reply to the original post as I felt for someone who proclaimed to be such a great follower and called him a ‘Tzadik’ it was wrong to post the question knowing full well the answers it would draw – this is not respect for your Tzadik, but hey if everyone else is I’ll jump on the bandwagon as well.
I don’t like the music, I don’t like the hippy cult like following and I don’t like people compromising halacha in the name of kiruv and I can comment here because I am involved in kiruv and I do not compromise in any way whatsoever any halacha (or at least I hope I don’t. P.S. I don’t think I’m small minded either and as for influencing thousands of yiden back to yiddishkeit so does SEED,AISH, Lubavitch and countless other worldwide organisations and peopleMay 22, 2009 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #646673
nobody- a quick reply. I do not sapologize for bringing thes matter to discussion. At least, R’ Shlomo’s greantess is recognized by many.
You are entitled not to like his music-you are obviously in the minority (just attend an kabbalas shaboos at the kossel).
As fra as hippy cult- how does this differ from any chassidishe rebbe or chabad or-G-d forbid that i mention it- the cult like veneration of the litvishe yeshivos for their roshei yeshiva?
As far as compromising halacha for kiruv- “Jesh ve-jesh”. each organization has its own limits, Plenty of people think thaqt chabad is a heretic sect- that surely is compromising halacha. All the other organzaitons do great work but they are ORGANIZATIONS. show me an INDIVIDUAL who has done so much for the klal.
Lastly- how do you answer the concept of “eis laasos lashme, heferu torosecho” ???May 22, 2009 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #646674cherrybimParticipant
rabbiofberlin: While you have a right to your opinions about Shlomo Carlbach, his “kiruv” methods would have put him in prison in today’s environment.
And what has Shlomo Carlbach done for the klal? And today there are many talented composers of nigunim which are sung throughout the Jewish world (just attend a kabbalas shaboos at the kossel). You don’t have to be off the normative path to be successful, and you don’t have to be rejected by all your Rosh Yeshivas and Rebbes to be popular.
But the legend of Shlomo Carlbach continues to grow and has a life of its own. It’s amazing that those who have nothing to gain by the legend and were closest to him are not part of the frenzy, because they knew what he was and what he wasn’t.May 22, 2009 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #646675feivelParticipant
“i am not here to judge-none of us can judge anyone”
“the small-minded people”
you are not here to judge…….apparently except someone who disagrees with youMay 22, 2009 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #646676
feivel- you are correct in saying that i should not judge the ones who dismiss Shlomo carlebach, so i will not cal lthem small minded people.
to cherrybim- your question shows your -forgive me- ignorance “what has shlomo carlebach for the klal?” Apart from his wonderful music, he broguht back thousands of people to yiddishkeit and he did it all virtually single handedly.
As far as being rejected by others- the Lubavitcher rebbe zz’l was rejected by the same Roshei yeshiva you pledge allegiance to. And Rav Kook – oy vavoy- he is ‘chutz lamachaneh”. so, just because a certain part of the klal rejects you does not mean that your shittah is wrong.Just ask the baal shem tov.
I am not sure what you mean by “my way of thinking” so I have no way of answering that. And-of course- I am delighted that the legend of Shlomo carlebach continues to grow, this tells you something. I also have no clue what yo umean by those closest to him are not part of the frenzy- all his talmidim are as enthusiastically following him as ever before.
Lastly, to be “motzi shem ra’ (his kiruv method would put him into prison…etc)without actual proof is truly out of bounds.May 22, 2009 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #646677NobodyMember
Rabbi of Berlin: You are entitled not to like his music-you are obviously in the minority (just attend an kabbalas shaboos at the kossel).
Why am I in the minority? Who says so? you? I have been to the Kabolos Shabbos at the kossel. I left after a short while as I was not impressed.
Please don’t compare Carlebah followers to chassidim, Lubavitch, Litvish or otherwise. Your comparision is the same as me saying well the founder of AISH or SEED made thousands of people frum. No, they did not, but their programme did. Carlebach did not single handidly make thousands of people frum. His outreach approach via music encouraged many and that’s about it.May 24, 2009 3:45 am at 3:45 am #646678Pashuteh YidMember
RabbiofBerlin, unfortunately, because of some earlier posts here, I happened to take a look at some of the info available on the web about Reb Shlomo, and I was very disturbed. I had always thought that the problem was just some friendly overtures towards women at his concerts, but some of the things I now read bothered me very much. While it is easy to say it is only unsubstantiated rumors, however, the same can be said of other similar issues which have recently come to light in the frum community, and are being taken very seriously now.
I am very confused how such a beautiful neshama who did so much good and was so connected to the RBSH and who connected so many other lost souls to the RBSH can have possible allegations surrounding him. I am very troubled. He spent so much time on composing his niggunim, and collecting his maysalach, and on learning, and on transmitting his chassidishe Torahs and on his innumerable chesed which literally fills books, that I personally don’t see how he could have had the time to have done anything improper. Yet what I read is not at all pleasant. Could you or someone please help me out understanding this. I so much want to believe that Reb Shlomo was a tzaddik gomur.May 24, 2009 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #646679cherrybimParticipant
Pashuteh Yid: I’m sure Shlomo Carlbach continues to receive the s’char he deserves for all of his positive contributions to yiddishkeit and as I stated before, you can certainly consider him a Tzadik years after his p’tira.
Chazal say, the greater the person, the stronger his Yetzer Hara and as Shlomo always said, “The world is full of contradictions”.
But unfortunately, his weakness was the cause of a lot of hurt and many people turned away from frumkeit as a result.
And RabbiofBerlin: G’dolim can have disagreements with each other in shittos but that doesn’t take away from their saintliness and greatness, whether it’s the Lubavitcher Rebbe or Rav Kook or the Baal Shem Tov. But don’t put a performer in the same category.
And yes, SC was rejected not only by his Rosh Yeshiva in Lakewood; but also by Chabad in Crown Heights.
And to which Rosh Yeshiva do I pledge allegiance? You seem to know.May 27, 2009 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #646680
Let me tell you something, holy brothers and sisters…the year was 1990, I went to a shul on the West Side to hear the holy Reb Shlomo sing….mamash you know, it was called the West Side Institutional Synagogue, and let me tell you, most of the audience and also the performers were looking like they just walked out from an institution…it was mamash a gevald, so holy, for an hour he was so holy, Reb Shlomo, he jumped up and made noise and then, oy, it was so holy, so special, he had an hour and a half intermission and oy, such a gevald, there were only three of us who were normal and came for the music, me and two bochurim from Flatbush, and we were sitting in like a triangle near each other, and oy, it was mamash a gevald, so special, so high, so holy, how he went around during the intermission and kissed all those holy, so special, so high, freak sisters with the peace signs on their cheeks and let me tell you, this was 1990 but it looked like 1968…oy, such a gevald, too holy for me so I had with me a magazine to pass the time and when I was finished reading it he was still going on kissing all the holy maidelach so, oy, it was mamash too holy for me and mamash an hour and a half shoyn…so I walked out to get a slice of pizza, never to return.
Oy, he was so holy, let me tell you…but the audience was even holier, oy a gevald, so many holes in their head from two straight decades of you know what it is holy mushrooms for breakfast….not like the mushrooms I had on that pizza, but such holy, such special, such high mushrooms, you eat a few and you mamash see how holy, how special, such a gevald, you see such holiness…
The only redeeming feature about some of his recordings is that we can (almost) listen to them during sfira but they get repetitive after about the first time.May 27, 2009 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #646681
Add to those who really contributed real niggunim:
R’ Chaim Banet
R’ Boruch Chait
R’ Baruch Levine
The Belz baalei menagen – I forget who among R’ Yermiya Damen, R’ Yosef Tzvi Breier and the Kalish brothers are the actual composers.
Reb Michel Twerski (Milwaukee) – a couple of niggunim that we think are of unknown origin or that have been co-opted by Chabad and others are really his work – Hoshia es Amecho and To Love A Fellow Jew (Karev Yoim).
A handful of new Chassidish composers including “Pinky” Weber, Meshulim Greenberger and a couple of others.May 28, 2009 4:10 am at 4:10 am #646682
A600KiloBear: LOL such a holy post! welcome back Itzik!May 28, 2009 8:10 am at 8:10 am #646683
Now where is the edit function when I need it – I forgot the “I want you to know” part :)!May 28, 2009 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #646685
A600KiloBear: i just POYed=just gave that HOLY post, a nomination for Post of the Year award! we have a thread for this type of great posts! well done with that one man!May 31, 2009 2:56 am at 2:56 am #646686Pashuteh YidMember
Cherrybim: nicely said.
A600KiloBear: Enough with the laitzonus. Over yontof it occurred to me that why do we find by kimat every tzaddik in tanach that they had some imperfections. I think the reason is to tell us that we are all basar vadam and all fall short of the ideal in some way. Nevertheless, that doesn’t in any way negate the tremendous good that these tzaddikim do.
Shlomo was never involved with drugs, and helped many get off them. Ein hochi nami he was the rebbe of the hippies. But imagine where these hippies would be without a rebbe. Many became first rate bnei and bnos torah.
Today you take it for granted that we all have to follow shulchan oruch and one who doesn’t is a meshugeneh and a rasha. But right after the holocaust, many lost their emunah and said, if being frum and keeping all the mitzvos ended in such destruction for so many people and families, then who in the world needs this nonsense and restrictions on our lives. We will do what feels good and make peace in the world too. Go try to argue with them. Shlomo learned to speak their language and showed them that ultimately being frum is the greatest peace and the greatest high.
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