Shmiras Einayim and the ?? ?????

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  • May 29, 2015 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #615750
    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Many people will quote this Gemara:

    :??? ???? ?? ??

    ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????

    ????? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ??????

    ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???

    ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???

    With the Rashbam:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=23&daf=57b&format=pdf

    The main Rashbam that people focus on:

    ??? ???. ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??????

    .?????? ?? ????? ?? ??: ???? ?? ??????

    Pretty Strong. But Rav Binyomin Zilber tz”l writes:

    ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????, ???? ?????? ????? ?????

    ???? ???? ???? ??????, ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?????

    Please read the whole teshuva and not just the line I posted:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14702&st=&pgnum=300&hilite=

    May 29, 2015 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1085767
    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Oh my gosh, I forgot to put the words ?? ????? next to the words “and the”. Moderators, can you correct?

    And further in the teshuva he writes:

    ??????

    ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????, ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??????

    ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ?????

    May 29, 2015 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #1085768
    coheni
    Member

    can anyone translate plz?

    May 29, 2015 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1085769
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I don’t understand the conclusion at all, and why Rav Zilber assumes the Rambam and the Rashbam disagree. If anything, the Rambam disagrees with the Gemorah in Bava Basra (that there is some advantage of going in a different direction), not the Rashbam’s P’shat.

    ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????, ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??????; ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????–????, ??? ???? ???? ?????.

    Even according the the P’shat of the Yad Ramah, all he is saying is that if one does stare, it is more his fault because he took that path.

    Besides, the whole Gemorah’s question seems to be nonsensical according to this P’shat:

    ?????? ??) ????? ????? ????? ??? ?”? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???”? ????? ??? ????? ?????

    The whole Gemorah is talking about an ???? ?????, not a ?????

    May 29, 2015 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #1085770
    newbee
    Member

    Is there a question or point to this that you have?

    May 29, 2015 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1085771
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gavra, he seems to be learning that the Gemara is only calling someone a rasha if he could have gone a different way and he looks.

    The Rogatchover addresses the Rambam’s omission.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20216&st=&pgnum=150&hilite=

    I need to be ???? to see how he is answering.

    May 29, 2015 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #1085772
    newbee
    Member

    not only if could have gone a different way, but both those ways are equal.

    ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????”? ???? ?”???? ???? ??????”, ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????, ??? ????? ??? ???? ????, ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ??? (?? ?? ?”?) ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????, ????? ??????? (?? ?”? ??) ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????, ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????.

    reason

    ???? ??”? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ??????, ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????, ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??, ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??, ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ??????? ???????? ??? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????

    ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?

    May 29, 2015 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #1085773
    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Rav Zilber tz”l does mention that if one knows he can’t control himself, he can’t go:

    ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????

    ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ????? ???? ?? ?????

    It is in the lengthy footnote.

    newbee-My point is that people read that Rashbam and will tell you Halacha Lemaseh is like that. But that is not pashut, as I have shown.

    Just to add, Rav Zilber’s kula also brings a chumra. If you have no other path (????? ???? ??????), you still have to close your eyes.

    As he writes:

    ???? ???

    ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????

    ???? ??? ???? ???

    Rashbam says the Torah paturs you if you look by ???? ???? ??????, but Rav Zilber does not seem to pasken like that.

    May 29, 2015 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1085774
    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    newbee-He says that Tosafos is not a Raayah.

    He discusses more about the path’s being longer on the next page after the discussing the Tosafos. Page 300 in Hebrew Books count

    ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??????, ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????

    ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????

    ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????

    ???? ????? ?????, ??? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ???

    ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????

    ?? ?? ???? ????

    Interesting, Rav Moshe Feinstein tz”l does not seem to learn like this when he discusses the sugya at the end of Igros Moshe EH Vol. I, 56

    May 29, 2015 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1085775
    newbee
    Member

    “doesnt mention if one knows he can’t control himself, he can’t go:”

    isnt this mashma that one cant know if he can control himself or not?

    ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????, ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??, ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??

    May 29, 2015 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1085776
    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    The Chofetz Chaim is explaining the position of the Rashbam. Why by avodah zarah can one go and not look, but by arayos he can’t? So he answers, like you just posted above. But if one has no other choice he can rely on himself not to come to hirhur, unless he knows he’ll have hirhur. (HebrewBooks doesn’t have Igros Moshe Even Haezer Chelek Aleph on it, but if you see there at the end of Siman 56, it might clarify for you)

    Rav Zilber is learning, not like the Rashbam, so even if you have another path, it is mutar if you make sure to close your eyes.

    Look, in this sugya, the Gemara gives you some element of trusting yoursef, but acc. to Rashbam as explained by Rav Moshe tz”l, that is only by ???? ???? ??????. Rav Zilber tz”l learns that even by ?? ????? ???? ??????, you can trust yourself not to look.

    Rav Moshe is explaining that by ???? ???? ??????, if one looks, then the Torah is patur you (Rashbam), but you still have to guard oneself from Hirhur. But, by ???? ???? ??????, you shouldn’t have put yourself in that position, and besides you know that there is not tznius things there, so that itself might lead to hirhur. By going according to Rav Zilber’s explanation, you avoid Rav Moshe’s kashya. You can’t look either by ???? ???? ?????? or ????, but if you put yourself in a situation and then look, you are a rasha. If by ????, then your not a rasha. So the question of what about hirhur doesn’t arise, bec even by ???? it is assur to look. Acc. to Rashbam, the Torah paturs you, so we have the kashya of what about hirhur that Rav Moshe tz”l deals with.

    (I am also a little confused with this sugya)

    May 31, 2015 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1085777
    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    I don’t understand why Rav Zilber tz”l writes that the whole shayla about the path being longer is only according to the Rashbam?

    By his pshat also, we need to know if it is ???? or ????, to know if he loses control and looks, is he a rasha or not?

    June 2, 2015 3:28 am at 3:28 am #1085778
    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    What could “leka darka achrina” mean? Isn’t the world round? Aren’t there boats? Two possible answers:

    1. The gemara held (that reb chiya bar abba held) the world was flat;

    2. It means a path of equal or substantially similar inconvenience.

    Answer “2.” is much better, agreed. It does negate 95% of what people try to learn out of the gemara though…the world could always be flat…

    June 8, 2015 1:05 am at 1:05 am #1085779
    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Someone told me this can possibly be a daas yochid. Anybody know?

    June 8, 2015 1:49 am at 1:49 am #1085780
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    What does az nidbiru have to do with this thread?

    June 8, 2015 3:13 am at 3:13 am #1085781
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What doesn’t it?

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