Shmuly Yanklowitz, Novominsker and OO theology

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  • #1095282
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If this restaurant is having money coerced out of them by a bad organization, all the more reason to shop there.

    lav davka.

    If the chovevei mafia is going to use this restaurant as an example when “marketing” to the next place, you’re just helping the reshaim.

    The whole idea is literally laughable. If they actually want to give money to restaurant workers–let them just give money to those workers! If customers want to give money to restaurant workers when they dine there–give money to those workers!

    Liberals excel at taking money from other people for their causes, but proof is in the pudding that they never open their own wallet.

    If you’re dining at a restaurant and think you’d rather pay 10 dollars more for your meal and have the kitchen staff paid more, just hand the maitre d’ a 10 (together with a tip for her) and ask her to give it to the kitchen staff.

    #1095283

    ZD, nobody doesn’t eat at a restaurant because it doesn’t have the Tav.

    People don’t eat at a restaurant without a hechsher they’re familiar and comfortable with.

    I recently walked into a place with three hechsherim. One I was not comfortable with, and two I hadn’t heard of, so I walked out.

    #1095284
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If a frum jew says its kosher, then its kosher. When the O-U gives a heshcer on twizzlers then its kosher. Its funny how the term “chovevil Mafia” is used to pay the workers a fair wage, but dont use a similar term when there is an extra sticker on the twizzlers.

    Either the O-U is a good heshcher or its not and personally Id trust the o-u over anything else since its so large and has alot to lose if anything is found to be a problem.

    Restaurants cannot afford to be in business if they need to pay 3 Mashgiachs, they are expensive. If there are 3 hashghacha, 2 of them are the mafia.

    #1095285

    “If a frum jew says its kosher, then its kosher.”

    only if he dresses like me….

    seriously tho, I am close with someone who is in the higher up of a big kashrus agency. He has had a lot to say about how things operate that i find sad. I agree that it is important to have an agency that follows the guidelines you follow so that you can be comfortable eating there, but i don’t believe anyone can say zd is as wrong as you’d like him to be. there is a lot of politics involved. not just the agency, but in the communities, and who they are “willing” to support. if we weren’t so darn fragmented, there could be a lot less time and money going into the hashgacha because people could trust each other. its not all one way or the other.

    #1095286
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    1) Is there always a frum Jew there?

    2) A person does not have to eat from the OU if they do not want to. If someone wants to market the Twizzlers to those who do not eat OU hashgocha (which is their prerogative) then he can get the extra hashgacha and then add that to the price. This is purely a free market issue.

    3)”Either the O-U is a good heshcher or its not” Is that a fact? The same would apply to any hashgocha then. You cannot tell everyone which hashgocha to use. ( I am not saying the OU is bad or that I don’t use it.)

    4) Restaurants, even with multiple hashgochas only have multiple mashgichim if the need the personnel because of the size of the operation. Your comments belie your professed knowledge.

    5) Uri Ltzedek’s certificate adds nothing, to the contrary it shows that the store supports an organization run by reshaim gemurim which does direct harm to Jews specifically because they are frum. So any payments to them would be purely coercive and does not provide any service.

    6) They do nothing for a fair wage. Fair wages are defined by law. There are minimum wage laws which include overtime provisions. Just because someone wants to get paid more money does not mean it’s fair. And this is coercion by this hateful group. Let them shave the whales. But I want them to know that they have caused harm to this restaurant because I and my family will no longer eat there.

    #1095287
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    If a frum jew says its kosher, then its kosher.

    If a KNOWLEDGEABLE frum jew says its kosher, then its kosher.

    If an Am Haaretz says it is Kosher, it means nothing.

    FTFY

    Regarding the OU. I trust the OU to follow its own standards. If I disagree (for example, Bishul Yisroel Tuna), then I trust them to tell me when it is or is not BY.

    #1095288
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Further to the point,

    It is clearly mafia like to have to pay for allegedly halachic based (Which is most certainly is not)certification by a group that is headed by a non-jew and a kofer.

    I wonder which part of Tzedek that might be?

    Bunch of thieves.

    #1095289
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    When there are 3 hashghchas they are not working in tandem with each other , they are competing with each other

    So please tell us what value they add ?

    When there is a sticker on Twizzlers, what value does it add

    #1095290

    First, that’s often not the case; the kashrus agencies rely one upon another and often share mashgichim. The cost of three hashgochos is probably a lot less than triple that of one.

    The value is that the consumer knows (or at least assumes) the standards of each of the hashgochos is being upheld. So, for example, although the OU allows confectioner’s glaze, if the hashgocha on the Twizzlers sticker doesn’t, the consumer who is makpid knows he can eat Twizzlers. Otherwise he doesn’t know.

    #1095291
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    PSSS

    here is a secret, Twizzlers does not change the formula on the day the Hemish Sticker comes into the factory, Its the same formula every day.

    We are not talking about Twizzlers vs some Hemish Brand where the ingridiants might be diffent. We are talking about the same exact twizzlers .

    If the Rav of the 2nd and 3rd Hashgcha has a question and was really doing things Lesham Shamayim,, He would just tell the original Hashchagha the problem.

    Funny thing is there is a Halacha that if a Bagel Store opens, you cannot open another Bagel store next door, however if the Bagel Store gets a Hashgha, another Hashgha has the right to invade that territory and take away business

    #1095292

    I think you missed the point of my comment.

    #1095293
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I think you are missing my point

    If you think the Uri Tzdek is a Leshem Mamom enterprise, and worthless and that might very well be true You need to think that there are alot bigger fish who are enagaging in Mafia style tactics Leshem mamom as well and are not doing it Leshem Shamayim.

    If the 2nd and 3rd hashscha’s were really concerened about Kashruth and not Mammom they could just let the 1st Hashgha or the owner of the company Gratis information instead of making them buy another Hashghcha (Their own of course)

    #1095294
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “When there is a sticker on Twizzlers, what value does it add”

    It adds value to those who want a specific hashgocha. They are willing to pay for it and would otherwise not eat twizzlers.

    No one is making you eat these Twizzlers, you can go to CVS or ShopRite or any of a hundred different places to buy twizzlers without the extra hashgocha. For that matter, no one is making you eat Twizzlers at all and no one is making Hershy’s put the sticker on Twizzlers.

    No one is making anyone do anything against their will.

    edited

    #1095295
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    You have some huge hangup about Twizzlers, for some reason.

    Your comments do not become more sensible the more you keep saying them.

    edited

    #1095296

    L’shem mamon isn’t bad. But provide positive value for what you do, and don’t be harmful.

    #1095297

    I also can’t fathom your hangup with Twizzlers. You can buy the ones without a sticker. I’m sure there are non Jews and non from Jews who are upset at having to pay for the OU, and they don’t even have the option of buying without, but that’s capitalism – Hershey’s thinks they’ll make more money this way. Whichever company distributes the ones with the stickers thinks they’ll make money because people who are more comfortable with that hechsher will buy it.

    #1095298
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    “When there is a YCT Hechsher , what value does it add”

    It adds value to those who want better treatment of employees. They are willing to pay for it and would otherwise not eat at that place and think its important.

    No one is making you eat at these places , you can go to some hemish place or any of a hundred different places to buy your food without the extra certificate. For that matter, no one is making you eat at these palces at all and no one is making the store put the certificate in the store

    No one is making anyone do anything against their will.

    #1095299
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    What harm does this yct “Heshcher” do?. maybe it is worthless, I am not arguing that, I am arguing that its no differnet than the sticker on Twizzlers and If you think I am obessessed with twizzlers You can subsitute Mike and Ike instead

    #1095300
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    What harm does this “hechsher” do? Dos you not read above?

    1) It is an organization that actively harms frum Jews solely because they are frum. Way worse than a sticker on Twizzlers.

    2) they portray themselves as being an orthodox agency yet Sean Yanklowitz is not Jewish and Ari Hart is an apikorus.

    It is issue to give them any support. Much worse than eating even Mike and Ike’s with a sticker.

    #1095301

    ZD, nisht is right. It is designed to make a mockery out of Yiddishkeit. But you had an issue with Twizzlers without mixing in the issue of YCT.

    If you want, I’ll rephrase: you have a hangup about stickers and multiple hechsherim. You’re wrong for the simple reason that nobody is forcing anyone to get the extra hechsher or to purchase those products. It’s a business decision on the part of the product’s manufacturer, distributor and stores, because some consumers want it.

    #1095302
    writersoul
    Participant

    DY: Still confused what the difference is between zdad’s and yours… so both are independent, free-market things which each seem to be objectionable (or at least talking points) to someone or another, and which each are quite easy to avoid.

    nisht doesn’t have to go to that restaurant. zdad doesn’t have to buy heimishe-stickered Twizzlers. (I have a question as far as why the sticker means anything if they’re being made in the same way, but I don’t have an objection to anything but the upped price, and it’s true, I can just buy them at ShopRite.) But you guys seem to be making the same point about each of those certifications being something that someone is paying for in a free-market kind of way. For zdad’s point, the hashkafic implications of Uri L’Tzedek don’t even seem relevant.

    And Joe: While I get your objection to your post about Shmuly Yanklowitz’s statement, there is a pretty pareve interpretation you can take out of it- kavod habrios. Technically speaking.

    *ducks* I may have just thrown any remaining yeshivish street cred to the dust…

    #1095303
    Abba_S
    Participant

    Hechsherim are a marketing expense. For example Striets which has the Solovetchick Hecsher had to get a more well known hecsher in order to get it’s product into some kosher stores. People who do not recognize the hechsher will net rely on it and wouldn’t buy it.

    Stores try to maximize profit so if they have a choice between two products they will use the more marketable item.

    In theory you can rely on any hechsher because a Jew is believed as to what is kosher. But this person is being paid to do it so it is quiet possible that for money he might lie. That is why you should always rely on a reliable hechsher.

    #1095304
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    One has to be careful about making a mockery out of Kashruth, I doubt the YCT “Hechsher” would even be seen anywhere except maybe Riverdale and the Upper West Side, Ive never seen it and I doubt it would come to my world or almost anyones world here.

    A Hemish sticker over an o-u product is actually underterming it. Twizzlers is not meat , Its not dairy and its not Tuna and therefore the Kashruth has less issues. (Either the ingridiants are kosher or they are not, No issues of Shechita, Chalav Yisroel or Dolphins) You are saying its not good enough

    And frankly the O-U has alot more to lose than some hemish hechsher since its well known.

    Someone wanted to make kosher Dog food so frum households could avoid getting benefit from treif, they went to the O-U and the o-u refused saying while they liked the concept they felt it would make a mockery out of kashruth.

    Hebrew National was brought by a large food conglomaterate named Conagra who wanted premium brands in the portfolio. They discovered the people who kept kosher did not buy the brand and they did reseach why kosher people did not eat it. They discovered about the rabbinical supervision and that if they could get a more accepted supervision , kosher people would eat it. The reseach told them the o-u was the largest and would get people to eat it. They went to the o-u and asked how to get an O-U on Hebrew National, and the O-U told them, while they could get it up to their standards, the Hebrew National name had such a bad rep in the kosher community it would give their own brand (the o-u) a bad reputation and they could not give it under any circumstances

    #1095305

    ZD, there are many more shailas in kashrus than just the ones you mention.

    The same way you understand that there are different standards for tuna and beef, there are also different standards for dozens and dozens of other products.

    What was the point of the Hebrew National story? To show that the OU plays politics?

    #1095306
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Do you think the Hemish hecher knows more about all the products than the OU, the Ou has many employees doing research on product as they are large and can do some. The hemish hescher is much smaller and needs to rely on others.

    For example there is sugar (Or Corn Syrup) in the twizzlers, do you think the hemish hecher goes to the factory where the sweetner is made to investigates or just relies on the hecsher on the sweetner already (which is liklely the OU anyway)

    #1095307

    I agree with that. I’m personally most comfortable with a dual hechsher, the OU for the reasons you said, and a “heimish” hechsher (not all, some – some are weak and I don’t like to rely on those) for their higher standards.

    There is a kosher candy company which uses two brands. When the product is of a higher standard, it carries an OU and one of the better heimishe hechsherim. When the product is of a lower kashrus standard, they package it with a different brand name, carrying an OU and a weaker heimishe hechsher.

    #1095308
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Having 2 brands with differnt qualities is standard business procedure. Toyota has Scion, Toyota and Lexus and people get the difference . But here we are talking about Twizzlers, Its the same Twizzlers by hershey if it just has an o-u on it or has the hemish sticker on it. If there a totally differnt hemish brand that looks like a twizzlers and sort of tastes like it that is a different product and I would not have an issue with that product having a hemish hashghcha

    #1095309

    I don’t understand why you have an issue with Twizzlers. As you said yourself, nobody is forcing you to buy them, or stopping you from buying the ones with a single hechsher.

    The reason some people prefer the ones with another hechsher is so that they know these are produced with the standards of both hechsherim, but you need not concern yourself with that if you don’t want to. Just go somewhere else and buy the regular ones.

    #1095310
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    I could ask you the same question about the YCT hecher, Can you even name one place that has that hechsher, Have you ever seen it in person. I know Ive never seen it . In fact Ive never even ever seen a OO synagagouge except for the Hebrew Institute which is visible from the Henry Hudson Parkway. I doubt you or anyone has ever seen such a place either

    I like one stop shopping, I dont like to go to many stores to shop for stuff. The store I normally frequent sells the hemish sticker version of twizlers (And the other ones too like Mike and Ike). So it does affect me unlike the yct hecher which you have likely never seen.

    #1095311

    No, I’ve never actually seen it, and I don’t know if I’d actually boycott an establishment if I saw it. It would make me think twice, though.

    Okay, so your local grocery carries a more expensive version of what, to you, is the same product. So either pay the extra few cents, or stock up next time you’re in a different store. I don’t see why this is such a big deal to you.

    #1095312
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    I don’t know what I am bothering, because it’s been said over so many times already, but the cases are not even remotely the same.

    Where there are two hechsherim, neither is an evil organization.

    However Uri Ltzedek, which has nothing to do with kashrut is evil. Huge, huge difference.

    In addition, you made a comment before that the small hasgochas do not supervise all the underlying ingredients. Neither does the OU, in fact there are multitudes of hashgochas certifying the ingredients. Every hashgochas has lists of different ingredients which are more or less sensitive and they base their certifications on which items are more or less a sensitive and if they have certain hakpados. The fact that a second hashgochas relies on the OU for certain ingredients, does not mean that they do not have certain additional requirements for either processes or ingredients. And there are consumers who look for those hakpados. Just having an OU does not give them comfort regarding those hakpados and therefore they look for the additional hashgochas. The OU may not look for those hakposaas and therefore the extra hasgocha is necessary for those consumers.

    However to reiterate again, the twizzllers are not all the same as U L which is a farce, as its headed by and its standards are set by a non Jew and a Kofer.

    #1095313
    Abba_S
    Participant

    If you only do one stop shopping and aren’t happy with the hemish hecsher or don’t like the price for Twizzlers try Amazon. I am sure they have them and they do sell many of the same groceries at a lower price and it’s shipped directly to you. I don’t know about their meats but for example many of the BJ’s are kosher on the eastern seaboard so it never hurts to ask. Amazon customer service is great so maybe they will get into the kosher food business. So you can order your groceries on Amazon and just do one stop shopping for meat, dairy and baked goods, less to carry home.

    #1095314

    I find it very disappointing to hear someone encouraging someone to take their money out of the frum stores and send it to Amazon. Do you really take such things so lightly over there? Here we do everything we can to encourage shopping at frum stores even if it is more costly and even when you don’t know if you can. This is a yids parnassa we are talking about.

    #1095315
    Sam2
    Participant

    Syag: It’s a fine line. Being the only Jewish store in town and knowing that the community will feel bad for/support you doesn’t give a right to overcharge, as unfortunately often happens.

    #1095316
    Abba_S
    Participant

    My comment wasn’t meant to say people should buy at Amazon, it was merely telling people that in this day and age you are not locked into one source for your groceries. Sure you should support your local frum store but if you are unhappy with the quality or prices you are free to go elsewhere.

    My interpretation was the writer was complaining about the cost of the extra hosgochia on Twizzlers. I believe someone else wrote that they could shop at Shoprite and their answer was they were a one stop shopper. I was merely stating that they could shop online too.

    Once the Frum store owner realizes that he has competition he will try to find cheaper alternatives.

    #1095317
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And if you are unhappy with this YCT Hasghcha and dont want to pay for it, dont shop at those establishments who show it

    I checked the website as I had never seen this hasghcha before and it was as I expected. it was mostly out of town and the upper west side (And Teaneck, NJ). Of the places that were in Manhattan they seem mostly to be Red Mango (Not Chalav Yisroel) Moaz Vegatarian (Questionable regular Hasgcha Israel Mayer Steinberg) and the Kosher cafeteria at Columbia so Hemish people arent likely to shop there anyway.

    #1095318
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    1) It’s not a hasgocha, it’s a farce.

    2)What does (and Teaneck, NJ) mean? Why’d Teaneck get put into parentheses?

    3) Have you ever seen who frequents restaurants in Teaneck? Why would say that there aren’t heimishe people there?

    4) Only heimishe people have to be concerned with an organization that is trying to make a farce of Halacha and actively harms frum yidden?

    5) You said earlier that if a frum person says something is kosher, it is. Now you say that Israel Meir Steinberg is not reliable? So now you are completely changing your tune and all you previous arguments are moot.

    6) And you say if I don’t like it, I shouldn’t eat there, that is exactly what I said in my first comment about this, that I ???? will not eat there. You got all worked up about that.

    #1095319
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Causing someone to pay more money for something is also harmful if they dont have it.

    I originally said I thought these places were in Riverdale and the Upper West Side. But It seems they are in teaneck as well. I am guessing the people in teaneck want it otherwise it wouldnt be there.

    People are making a farce out of Kashruth if they insit on a secondary sticker on perfectly kosher product. I wouldnt be suprised if some say its an AVERIAH to eat the twizzlers without the extra sticker and its the same product with or without the sticker.

    Its generally accepted not to rely on Israel mayer Steinberg. ive never heard anyone say he was ok (He does Hashghacs on places like the 2nd Ave Deli)

    #1095320
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    According to Wikipedia, it doesn’t cost anything to get the Tav. There are no “higher” standards either. They just want people to follow the law.

    That said, the reports of their mafia-style tactics to try and get people to comply is just wrong. I can’t support an organization like that. But I won’t avoid a restaurant just because it has it.

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