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What is the halachic difference between hand shmura matzah and machine shmura matzah, as used during Pesach? And where does non-shmura 18-minute matzah come in?
Considering that matzah’s were hand-made for the approximately 3,500 years from Yetzias Metzrayim until the 19th Century CE, it would be foolish to assert that it is better than hand-made matzah’s, as such a claim would effectively mean that the kashrus was lacking in the matzah’s of Am Yisroel in the 3 millennium leading up to the invention of the machine.
it would be foolish to assert that it is better than hand-made matzah’s, as such a claim would effectively mean that the kashrus was lacking in the matzah’s of Am Yisroel in the 3 millennium leading up to the invention of the machine.
Rav Gifter = fool?
I don’t think so.
it would be foolish to assert that it [machine matzah] is better than hand-made matzah
No, it would be foolish to say that it’s impossible to bake hand matzah that’s not chametz, but not foolish to say that today’s machine matzah is superior to the hand matzah available today.
Shlishi,
18 minute (machine) matzah means the machines are stopped and cleaned every 18 minutes, which is not relevant to when the shmirah started on the wheat.
Considering that matzah’s were hand-made for the approximately 3,500 years from Yetzias Metzrayim until the 19th Century CE, it would be foolish to assert that it is better than hand-made matzah’s, as such a claim would effectively mean that the kashrus was lacking in the matzah’s of Am Yisroel in the 3 millennium leading up to the invention of the machine.
Considering that seforim were hand-printed for the approximately 3,000 years from Yetzias Metzrayim until the 15th Century CE, it would be foolish to assert that printed seforim are better and more accurate than hand-written seforim, as such a claim would effectively mean that the accuracy was lacking in the seforim of Am Yisroel in the 3 millennium leading up to the invention of the printing press.
The Wolf
shlishi: Minhag avoseinu b’yadeinu. Many people want it “like it always was.” Of course, based on that logic you could ask that given that the practice of baking thin, hard matzos only started in the times of the early rishonim, why do some people insist on using hard matzos instead of soft? The answer is that they feel that thin matzos are better for technical reasons (no chsash of unbaked dough, for example.) Similarly, yekkes feel that machine matzos are better because they are easier to control so we know exactly how much heat, and how evenly distributed etc.
Machine matzos also raise the question of Lishma. Rav Henkin, Rav Kook, Rav Breuer and Rav Aharon Soloveichik (he better have, he was the rav hamachshir of Streit’s bakery for many years) held that kavana had by the machine operator was enough. Others held differently.
Why are so many gedolim and yidden willing to pay $30 a pound for hand-made, instead of $5 a pound for machine-made?
First of all, many are of the opinion that the kashrus is indeed better. Second, it’s not so pashut that machine matzos are baked “l’shem matzas mitzvah” (IOW that turning on the machine is considered the act of baking).
most machines cannot be disassembled and cleaned properly
“Considering that matzah’s were hand-made for the approximately 3,500 years from Yetzias Metzrayim until the 19th Century CE, it would be foolish to assert that it is better than hand-made matzah’s, as such a claim would effectively mean that the kashrus was lacking in the matzah’s of Am Yisroel in the 3 millennium leading up to the invention of the machine. “
Considering that Am Yisroel drank unfiltered water for the approximately 3,500 years from Yetzias Mitrayim until the 21st Century CE, it would be foolish to assert that filtered water is better than unfiltered water, as such a claim would effectively mean that the kashrus was lacking in the drinking water of Am Yisrael in the 3.5 millenium leading up to the “discovery” of copepods.
“Why are so many gedolim and yidden willing to pay $30 a pound for hand-made, instead of $5 a pound for machine-made? “
Maybe because it tastes better?
ItcheSrulik: thin hard matzos are MUCH more recent than “early Rishonim.” The Machatzis HaShekel (18th century) explains the Rema permits a finger’s width thick. This is thicker than soft Sefardi matzos. Also, the Rema made each matza heavier than a pound!!! Try that with thin ones.
Let me stipulate that even after pesach, this is a machlokes leshem shamayim, and let me also declare my biases as a home (hand matza) baker.
For the far greater part of those 3500 years, matzo baking was done by the individual household, or later in communal groups and communal ovens. Read the halacha in depth and read between the lines. You will get a sense of the great tragedy of commercialization of matzo baking. There is a comment of (not sure) maybe the Sochochover gaon, on the advent of the matzo machine. He said (requote from foggy memory) that he never saw the machine, but that who would dare contest the gedolim of the previous dor (50 years) who thundered about this. He then writes a pithy poignant lament about ” those who now buy matzos from others that baked them, and to shun this practice and bake individually was to “grab a mitzvah from the shuk”
They started during the rishonim. They were not used exclusively until much later, correct. BTW, yemenite matzos often are thicker than one finger. The sefardi matzos are about 1 cm thick (at least the ones we used this year.)
hello99, hello. Fact is, that the Sphardi also baked “rekikim” in bulk well before the chag, and for the duration of the chag, because the soft matzos go stale very quickly. Midaas aztmi, I thought that along with the hekesh to pesach that underlies the Mechaber’s halocho, it is also not incidentally, a hiddur, because if you are eating the soft stuff, the only way to have it fresh is to bake in the late afternoon. Where do you see that in Rama? In DM he bring deos that very large or thick is lacking in lehem oni ( i.e. ahsirah.)
Hello again hello99 and Itche. Way much earlier. The bread of korban todah, and the miluim, included “rekikei matzos, along with the chalos matzos!
You’re right, we should never forget about kodshim. But how thick were the rikikin?
sorry to interject, but may I just say that this year’s Montreal whole wheat shmurah matzas were so thick.
ItcheSrulik: “They started during the rishonim”
Can you prove this? I quoted the Rema and Machtzis HaShekel to prove that even when stipulating “rekikim dakim” the Poskim were only opposing the tefach of Shulchan Aruch, but nowhere near the thin, hard crackers of today.
“yemenite matzos often are thicker than one finger”
I don’t know where you get this from either. The ones I have eaten (not on Pesach) were similar to a lafa (eish tanur) and not even 1 cm. The pictures in the advertisements here are similar.
twisted: rekikim were less than a tefach, not crackers, and no indication of hard.
Also where do you get this “fact” that Sefardim had cracker baked early? In the past they baked fresh on Pesach and today they keep them in the freezer.
The Rema writes that the minhag was to knead a shiur challa and make 3 matzos for the seder from it. Shiur challa=1.5 kilo /3 + .5 kilo= appx 1 lbs
Hello99: I saw that in a testimony of 18th century rav in Bavel (probably in kovetz moadim Moriah)
bump 🙂
hello99: ” most machines cannot be disassembled and cleaned properly”
So how can such machine matza be eaten on Pesach?
I believe the Devri chaim (and others )held them to be chametz (he didn’t give a reason) and held that they are not to be used even after yom tov w/o selling it to a goy.
The rabunim of the yisuv before the war also came out against machine matzah
stuck: Poskim rely on Bitul prior to Pesach, among other tzirufim.
reb shlomo zalman auerbach used machine matzah
My rov in yerushalayim considered machine matzah to be like chometz.
Personally however, unfortunately, I don’t really have a choice but to use machine matzoh since I get severe stomach pain from hand matzos.
A few years ago, I called a hand-Matza bakery, and the owner told me that most of the kneading of the dough is done by Goyim. He told me that most every hand-Matza bakery does this. A Jew starts the process by pouring water on the flour, which is considered the start of the kneading process (BTW for that reason assur on Shabbat). He said that he cannot get frum Jews to that kind of hard labor for $10/hour. He tried to hire frum high school kids, but they quit within a couple days.
At that rate, I’m not sure why hand is better than machine.
MDG
the one’s iv’e been to are fully jewish
Hand Matzhos just taste so much better
mdg: “A few years ago, I called a hand-Matza bakery, and the owner told me that most of the kneading of the dough is done by Goyim. He told me that most every hand-Matza bakery does this”
Matza made in this way does not fulfil the obligation of Shemura and one is not Yotzei with it the Kezeisim at the Seder. I have been to many bakeries both in the US an EY, and not one has goyim kneading the dough.
MDG,
I do not believe your story. For a couple of reasons.
1) I have been to a number of bakeries in America and none of them had a goy kneading the dough. In fact where I was, there were no non-jews working at all and one of the bakeries had yeshiva bochurim or regular chasidish women rolling, depending on the shift. And that is besides the kneading. So it is clear that not most use non jews.
2) I do not believe that the owner would tell you such a thing unless he thought you were a nudnik, which very well may be the case. Why would an owner pasul his own matzos.
The only place I could even fathom this beiing the case maybe that one year they baked in Romania a couple of years ago. However the large machine bakeries are mostly staffed by non-jews. I wonder which one has the kavanah lishmah.
S, either you made up your story out of whole cloth, or you are repeating as fact what someone was kidding you about.
r’ aaron kotler had machine matzah at his seder table
IN Even Yisrael (chelek 1 perek 6 of hilchos chametz umatza) Dayan Fisher calls on people to be MACHMIR to use machine matzos.
Rav Elyashiv Zatzal always used machine matzo on pesach except for by the seder. Later though, he started using machine matzo EVEN by the seder based on the gra.
The Gra used machine matzah???
I dont know if the Gra used Machine Matzos or Not, but the Industrial Revolution Started in England in the Mid 1700’s so its not so far out of the question
Yosi7
I find this a bit hard to believe. My son went with my nephew to watch R Elyashiv,ZT”L bake erev pesach matzos. Hand Matzos.
I hardly think he went to bake matzos on erev pesach after chatzos for someone else’s use.
No it was not machine matzo.
Wolf,
Other than R’ Abadi, I don’t know of anyone who holds that a printed sefer torah is permissible for krias hatorah.
Apparently it is correct that hand printed seforim are superior. The kedushah is also greater.
Charlie,
Where do you get your manufactured factoid that our fathers did not filter their water. I would guess that untuill there was filtered municipal water, water that was not boiled (And probably even water that was boiled) was always filtered in some manner before drinking.
The problem with copepods is specidfic to certain areas, apparently and may not have been something you have heard about ealier. Your premise is highly flawed.
Many believe machine matzah is superior than hand matzah because since it is baked more quickly, there is less of a danger of it becoming chametz than when the work is done by hand, providing that special care is taken to ensure that the parts of the machinery are kept clean and that no pieces of dough remain which could be transferred from one batch to the next. Those who favor machine matzah include the Shoel u Meshiv, Aruch laNer, and Ksav Sofer.
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