Shopping for a Psak

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  • #1714215

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    After listening to some of the Anti-Vaxxers many are quoting from Rabbanim who are not from their community, In other words they have “Shopped for a Psak”

    Is it now OK to shop for a Psak if you want to be “more frum” ?

    #1714276

    Joseph
    Participant

    1. How do you know they aren’t in the community of the posek they cited?

    2. Even if they aren’t, how do you know that *their* posek holds differently?

    3. The pro-vaxxers also cite poskim many of the anti-vaxxers aren’t affiliated with. So the other side is doing no differently.

    #1714291

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Is it now OK to shop for a Psak if you want to be “more frum” ?”

    you mean less frum

    #1714286

    Firstly, I am anti anti-vaxxers and strongly hold they are acting contrary to halacha. Having said that, and commenting on the OP’s question with a question:

    Suppose I am from the MO community. The Rabbonim in my community give various leniencies to certain halachic issues. Is there anything wrong with seeking a psak from more chareidi poskim?

    Suppose I am from America, where Reb Moshe was the leading posek. Is there anything wrong with seeking out the psak of Rabbonei Eretz Yisroel that were machmir in certain areas?

    Finally, suppose my community generally uses OU as the kashrus standard, would there be a problem if I seek out “chassidishe hechsherim” which have certain chumros, such as not relying on various kulos for bishul akum, checking individual tuna fish instead of spot checking etc.?

    The problem of “shopping for a psak” is when your rabbonim forbid something and then you start an international search to find a Rov that will give a hetter!

    I know of women that were pregnant (a healthy, normal, uncomplicated pregnancy) and their Rabbonim paskened that they must fast on Yom Kippur. They called dozens of Rabbonim in various cities, till one was maykil and permitted them to eat on Yom Kippur!

    I know of girls that went to seminary in EY and their Rabbonim paskened they must keep two days of yom tov, so they shopped around till they find a psak that allowed them to only keep one day Yom Tov!

    #1714301

    2scents
    Participant

    There have been a number of printed and written letters stating that everyone is ‘mechuyiv’ to vaccinate.

    These are signed by the leading rabbinim of our generation.

    Please provide a written psak that opposes this.

    On a side note, when tye leading rabbonim and poskim publicize in writing that not only is there no reason not to vaccinate. But there is a chuyiv, how can one use jewish religion as an exemption, these are the religious leaders, not some lady pushing a stroller in williamsburg.

    #1714379

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ RGPANSN

    Just to clarify,

    Are you saying it is assur for the Yom Kippur lady and Seminary girls in your example to do what they did?

    Are you saying it’s appropriate for a person to act stringently while living in a community where there is an accepted custom to be lenient based on the psak of that community’s Rav (or consensus of that community’s Rabbonim)?

    #1714320

    funnybone
    Participant

    +1 2scents

    #1714456

    Non Political – “Are you saying it’s appropriate for a person to act stringently while living in a community where there is an accepted custom to be lenient based on the psak of that community’s Rav?”

    – YES! A person can always be machmir above and beyond the community standards, especially if the chumros are based on valid halachs (especially when based on actual psak of Rabbonim). However, it should be done in a private manner, not to make other feel inferior, as mentioned in Shulchan Oruch.

    “Are you saying it is assur for the Yom Kippur lady and Seminary girls in your example to do what they did?”

    – YES! Not only inappropriate, but probably forbidden once they received a psak from their Rabbonim, to go “psak shopping” would be going against their Rabbonim (which may be even a d’oraysa – Lo sosur min haderech asher yarucha – do not stray from the path that they (the Rabbonim) guide you).

    #1714536

    cholentandkugel
    Participant

    i dont agree with anti vaxxers-yes of course their shopping for a psak which is not ok!! just go vaccinate your own kids though and let others mind their own bussiness

    #1714983

    rational
    Participant

    Keeping one day yom tov in Israel is neither a kula nor a chumra. The fact is that in Israel there is only one day yom tov. Acting as if one is in Israel when one actually IS in Israel is simple logic and is neither lenient nor stringent.

    And yes, I am fully aware of the various opinions, old and modern, in halachic literature. Sorry for being rational.

    #1715062

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Keeping one day yom tov in Israel is neither a kula nor a chumra.”

    He didn’t say it was either. You can’t decide how to posken based on what you think is “logical.” They asked their rov and they didn’t like his answer, so they did the wrong thing. No reason to complicate the story.

    By the way, I also find the opinion (the Chacham Tzvi I think?) of going by where you happen to be more logical. The whole point of the thread is about going by your posek even when you don’t think the psak is logical.

    #1715049

    rational – being temporary in Israel does not acquire residency in Israel, keeping one still chayov in two days Yom Tov. The question is if a single person becomes a resident or not. Same in reverse, if an Iraeli bochur or girl visits usa, does he keep two days Yom Tov – and miss putting on tefillin on the second day yom tov…this isn’t how we “feel” about it, but exact application of the halachic criteria – hence the opinions of poskim (and our opinions mean nothing).

    #1715133

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is at least one well known posek who is opposed to Vaccines , he has said its a fraud and he is not chassidic.

    #1715161

    kollelman
    Participant

    IIRC, asking a second Rabbi for a psak after another Rabbi already gave one, is against Halacha. Additionally, looking up / learning in order to find a specific outcome, is considered Lo Sa’te Mishpat.

    #1715166

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Where did this posek get his medical training?

    #1715228

    2scents
    Participant

    Z,

    Has he released anything in writing?

    Has he reaffirmed his position with the current outbreak in writing?

    Being that this is an important subject, one would think that if it were true that this gadol actually has a position on this issue after conducting proper research that he would clarify his position in writing.

    #1715236

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Satmar Rebbe hold that one keeps one day of Yom Tov in Israel, even if you are only a visitor

    #1715277

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “The Satmar Rebbe hold that one keeps one day of Yom Tov in Israel, even if you are only a visitor”

    The Lubavitcher Rebbe also supported going by where you are. I think there are different girsas on how the Baal HaTanya held… Gah, there I go again; exposing myself as a secret Lubavitcher. I haven’t really observed people travelling enough to know, but maybe it’s the standard Chassidishe minhag.

    #1715285

    rational
    Participant

    As I explicitly wrote, I am aware of the various shitos regarding keeping one or two days. One can “pull out” of the poskim any answer one wants, and there are heavyweights on both sides, as some of the above commenters have mentioned.

    However, simple logic (surprise, the halachah and many poskim are logical) demands one day here in Israel, because here there IS only one day. All other factors are irrelevant.

    I can logically accept a Brooklynite keeping two days here provided he didn’t adjust his clock upon arrival and is acting according to Brooklyn time, seven hours behind.

    #1715398

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Your implication that the poskim who hold to keep two days are illogical is obnoxious.

    A little more humility is in order.

    #1715489

    ujm
    Participant

    rational: Do you believe Israelis visiting chutz laaretz for yom tov should keep two days? Or why the hypocrisy?

    Edited

    #1715498

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Shopping for a chumra has been the Yeshivishe way for a while. Someone I know was at a matza baking chabura and the head of the chabura insisted on a Chazon Ish chumra, an Aruch HaShulchan chumra, and at least one from the Ben Ish Chai.

    #1716197

    rational – “simple logic (surprise, the halachah and many poskim are logical) demands one day here in Israel”.

    I hope you are joking when you approach halacha with “simple logic” because as Chazal said, simple logic makes no difference if you shecht the animal from the front of the troat or from the back, but Hashem wants us to do it this way and not that way.

    We don’t keep mitzvos because of logic. Halacha isn’t decided by logic – that is not one of the precise 13 midos sh’ha’Torah nidreshes ba’hem.

    If you are serious, that your Judais is based on logic, then why would you keep shatnaz, or not mix milk with meat, or refrain from using electricity on shabbos etc. You sound like a non-frum person that rejects Torah because it doesn’t make sense to him.

    #1716590

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Someone I know was at a matza baking chabura and the head of the chabura insisted on a Chazon Ish chumra, an Aruch HaShulchan chumra, and at least one from the Ben Ish Chai.”
    There’s a big difference between “shopping for a psak” and being yotzei all deos. Do you really need this explained to you?

    rational: People are upset at your presentation more so than the content of what you’re saying. You could chose to say: “based on the reason for 2 day yom tov in chutz having to do with a safek on when yom tov ends combined with kabalistic reasons, it is understandable to me why people would hold that your practice should go by where you currently are located. However, many (if not most) respectable poskim hold that it should be based on your permanent dwelling place. I do not have the zchus to understand the logic behind shittah, but, b’ezras Hashem, I will continue my learning and be able to understand it soon.”
    Or, you could chose to say, “I don’t get this opinion, therefore it’s dumb.”
    Do you really think those 2 options are equally appropriate?

    #1716651

    rational
    Participant

    Israelis visiting chutz la’aretz should keep two full days.
    I’m not sure why I am being suspected of hypocrisy.

    As for the attacks on me for using logic, woe is the Jew who learns Torah without using his brain.

    #1716748

    ujm
    Participant

    What if your brain isn’t as Torah advanced or as fully developed as your Torah superiors? Should you use your less developed brain or rely on the ones of your Torah superiors?

    #1716757

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ RGPANSN
    “A person can always be machmir above and beyond the community standards…however, it should be done in a private manner”

    I’m glad you pointed out that qualification from מקום שנהגו of not being machmir in public in a place where the custom is to be lenient.

    Here are a few more qualifications

    1) Have you heard of a concept of yuharah? Not everyone can just opt to be stringent.
    2) There are two reasons given in the Poskim as to why one cannot get a heter for something another Rav forbade, one of them is kavodo shel rishon. This reason applies for lenient rulings as well.
    3) When being stringent against widely accepted halachic norms one can also run into the problem of being motxei laz al ha Rishonim.
    4) The chumrah must not come l’dai kula
    5) Even when a chumra does not come l’dai kula directly it is krum to put one’s efforts into something voluntary at the expense of fully fulfilling one’s obligations
    6) Someone who takes on 2 chumros that are in direct contradiction is a fool.

    #1716792

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ RGPANSN

    I wrote: “Are you saying it is assur for the Yom Kippur lady and Seminary girls in your example to do what they did?”

    You wrote: “YES! Not only inappropriate, but probably forbidden once they received a psak from their Rabbonim.”

    This is correct providing they fail to inform the second Rav that they already received a psak. There are cases where a second Rav may override the original psak (there are of course halachos governing when he can do this).

    #1716835

    rational
    Participant

    Now that I am being accused of not being frum, I will kindly request that the following questions be answered. No rational or logical thinking allowed, please give the correct and obvious “frum” answer.
    Example: Am I allowed to wear shatnez? Answer: No.

    1. A woman stopped nursing after six months and wishes to remarry. It is a leap year. Does she have to wait 18 more months or 19?
    2. A man’s wife becomes psychotic and is institutionalized. May he marry another woman?
    3. May photochromic spectacle lenses be worn outside the house on Shabbos?
    4. A kohen who converted to Christianity and became a moser wishes to go to shul on yom tov and duchen. Should the kehillah allow it?
    5. The local shochet for 20 years is rumored to have committed adultery. The accused woman is clearly pregnant. Can the shochet keep his job?

    Remember, just the obvious halachah, no logical thinking permitted.

    As an aside, if you knew something about halachic history, using electricity on Shabbos would not have been included with shatnez and basar b’chalav. Until the Hazon Ish put his meta-halachic foot down, the poskim (yes, the frum ones) were ready to accept electricity as at worst a d’rabbonon and possibly even permit it. There was no halachic precedent and they had to use, um, rational thinking.

    #1716746

    Read and apply:
    הסמ”ע (חו”מ ג,יג), כי דעת בעלי בתים היא היפך מדעת תורה
    Halacha: Laymen’s logic is OPPOSITE of Torah logic.

    You cannot apply logic to decide halacha.

    #1717111

    When a year is required, many poskim hold that a 13 month leap year is considered a 12 month year.

    Chew on this:

    The Bar Mitzva boy does not become 13 years of age, a Gadol, a few months earlier because during the 13 years there were 3 leap years.

    Logically, he should become bar mitzva at least a month earlier than the boy that only went through 2 leap years in his 13 years.

    The same applies to all the other questions. Logic does NOT conform to halacha.

    #1717221

    ” the poskim (yes, the frum ones) were ready to accept electricity as at worst a d’rabbonon and possibly even permit it. There was no halachic precedent and they had to use, um, rational thinking.”

    You state a factually wrong analysis of the early rabbonim. They simply did not understand what and how electricity is. One of our gedolim specifically made havdalah and the brocha bprei meorei haAis on electric light to teach the public that it is aish.

    Those rabbonim also did not understand how a microphone works, and initially permitted its use on shabbos – till they learned how it works.

    Later they learned how these work and applied halacha. Once they were EDUCATED about electricity, they did not pasken by logic, but by halachic precent ONLY..

    Similar was when microwave cooking came out, rabbonim had very lenient opinions about it till they factually became educated and came out with clear guidance about kashering, using for milk and meat, din bishul etc.

    It is EDUCATION – to learn the facts (the “metzius”), not to apply “logic”.

    #1717287

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ RGPANSN

    Have you seen the RAMCHAL’s Derech Tvunos and Sefer Higayon? He does not seem to subscribe to your anti-logic point of view. Quite the contrary. You tend are painting with a paint sprayer where a fine brush is in order.

    #1718843

    NP, can you translate:
    כי לא מחשבותי מחשבותיכם ולא דרכיכם דרכי נאום ה – ישעיהו נה ט
    Hashem’s “logic” is not like our logic, therefore our logic matters not.

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