Short Dating Time

Home Forums Shidduchim Short Dating Time

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 185 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #589320

    akcc
    Participant

    I B”H have been married now for a nice time and there is still one topic that seems to bother me a little. I am constantly hearing of young boys and girls getting engaged and am very happy for them. Unfortunately i have also heard that some of these shiduchim end up broken and a a lot don’t. I have asked and found out that they dated for about 8-10 days before getting engaged. Most of these boys and girls don’t know what they are looking for and are just saying so because of peer pressure but instead end up with a broken heart and it takes longer for them to recover. When a girl is just out of high school she does not know what she is looking for and a boy doesn’t either. The point of dating is to get to know your hopefully soon to be spouse. Not to rush into the whole thing. Lots of people are making this mistake nowadays and the parents are also pressuring the children.

    To all those who are in the shiduch scene now, please try to find out the essential things about your soon to be before making the choice. Finding things out later on in the marrige could c”vs ruin the whole thing. We have all heard these stories.

    On another note, not all shiducjim are for that person. a shadchun can only set up what they feel might work. they donkt know for sure. If you feel the person is not for you then speak up and please dont make a mistake.

    May you all be zoche to find your bashert.

    #646201

    tzippi
    Member

    If you’re not European or Chassidishe, it’s probably too short. Rabbi Braun of Ohr Sameach Monsey has a wonderful series on shidduchim. True, it’s geared to be a primer for BTs but I think it’s apropos for everyone. He makes the point that you need time to digest a date, and cautions against going out too often, without a break.

    I guess a lot of what he says is important for BTs as they may be handling a lot on their own. Presumably, the gene pool you (akcc) are referring to have parents with their kids’s best interests at heart, and the kids will take what the parents have to say very seriously, even while making their own decisions. We can only hope.

    #646202

    notpashut
    Member

    The Satmar Rebbe advocated dating only twice before engagement while R’ Bik held that the dating should extend till seven dates.

    They once met & the Satmar Rebbe accused R’ Bik of promoting pritzus, R’ Bik responded, “you are mesader keddushin – I’m mesader gittin – trust me – seven dates it is”!!

    #646203

    Klerr
    Member

    You wrote:

    “I B”H have been married now for a nice time”

    Please explain.

    This post must be removed right now!!

    #646204

    akcc
    Participant

    To Klerr: i apologize if i offended you or anyone else. i meant to say for a long time and not for a nice time. i was ch”vs in no way trying to be prust.

    #646205

    akcc
    Participant

    To Klerr: you wrote: This post must be removed right now!! please let the moderators make that decision. i am not trying to hurt or offend anyone, just to voice my opinion.

    #646206

    Jothar
    Member

    Notpashut, the story I heard marginally differs. The satmar rebbe complained about 8 dates, and quoted the passuk “Katzti bechayay mipnei bnos bnei ches”, a pun onthe word “ches” meaning the Hittites and the number 8. Rav Bik replied with his now-famous line of the difference between a mesader kiddushin and a mesader gittin.

    I heard a statistic that 85% of today’s divorces are preventable. It’s just a question of people not willing to make it work. The other 15% of course are the hidden problems etc.

    #646207

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I heard a statistic that 85% of today’s divorces are preventable. It’s just a question of people not willing to make it work.

    I’m not quite sure how you quanitify this number, but its not surprising. One example: a girl I know got married at 19 and had two kids very quickly. After the second one was about 6 months, her husband came home and said he just wasnt ready for all this responsibility and wanted out. Someone like that should not have been pressured to get married at a young age (he was 20-21 when they got married).

    You need a few elements to make a good marriage:

    1) A committment from BOTH parties to make it work

    2) Generally, mutual large scale goals

    3) Compatibility

    4) A willingness to compromise (basically, giving up your own selfishness)

    5) A willingness to struggle through hard times

    Love makes it easier to deal with 1-5 but is not necessary to make a good marriage. Plenty of people love each other but have terrible marriages. Many times people have no idea how much work marriage is and run at the first sign of trouble.

    Perhaps someone can enlighten me, but what was offensive about “I B”H have been married now for a nice time”?

    #646208

    oomis
    Participant

    Don’t get me started on the too few dates issue. I get very upset by the very short time young couples spend in each other’s company before making the life-altering decision to get married and possibly bring children into the world. I think the system needs a huge overhaul, the kids need to get the shidduch stars out of their eyes and cash a reality check, and society at large has to stop pushing our children into early serious lifelong commitments for which they are unprepared and of which they have singularly unrealistic expectations. If it’s a good shidduch after 8 dates, it should be an even better shidduch after 20.

    #646209

    akcc
    Participant

    could not have said better myself.

    #646210

    teen
    Member

    forget short dates….what about the fact that everyone seems to be looking for the perfect spouse instead of someone they can get along with and grow together with….y does ur spouse need to be perfect? y can a husband and wife never get into fights? y can they not have disagreements? these things are all a part of life and must be dealt with…maybe more marriges would last if people tried to work at them rather than just say we fight to much so lets get a divorce

    im only 17 so what do i no but this is what it seems like to me

    and this has nothing to do with not enough dates but it has to do with marriage so its kinda relevant

    #646211

    Joseph
    Participant

    The viability of the marriages of those in the frum community that date less frequently, is notably more lasting than those who have many dates.

    #646213

    Perhaps it is the responsibility of the Rabbis and Rebbetzins who mentor in the Yeshiva and Seminaries to talk tachlis to all the mature candidates in the Shidduch Parsha. The Parents on both sides also need to present Marriage in a very realistic way. What I mean is for them to give suggestions how to treat their potential life partner. Practical things (also need to be addressed) like surviving in the Material World i.e. covering rent, monthly expenses… Maybe the number of troubled Marriages would decrease if Significant people were involved in a relaxed manner.

    #646214

    beacon
    Participant

    The viability of the marriages of those in the frum community that date less frequently, is notably more lasting than those who have many dates.

    I don’t think this is the case anymore, unfortunately.

    #646215

    Joseph
    Participant

    beacon – it still is.

    #646216

    torahtziva
    Member

    girls should therefore start dating at the age of 20 and not 18-19

    #646217

    If one dates for a longer period of time, one is able to find out certain things that only become evident with time. For example, whether he/she is selfish, egotistical, has habits that you cannot live with, mental/psychological issues ect.. also, if he has certain attitudes that might result in abuse (c”v)….

    #646218

    Joseph
    Participant

    havesome – not necessarily.

    #646219

    an open book
    Participant

    im only 17 so what do i no but this is what it seems like to me

    well im not exactly 17 but i think im far from qualified to say anything. but

    i think your spouse should b ur closest friend. as w/ friends, get to know them, get to like them, accept their faults knowing that you are not perfect either, & sharing the most w/ them out of anyone else you know, they will be your closest friend. & i dont know about you, but i dont drop my friends just because we dont agree or are in a fight. i try to work through it because i value them more than… whatever i would be gaining from not making up.

    am i disillusioned or something? because it all seems clear in my head.

    #646220

    000646
    Participant

    Joseph,

    You said

    “The viability of the marriages of those in the frum community that date less frequently, is notably more lasting than those who have many dates.”

    How do you know this?

    #646221

    an open book, i agree with you 100%. a friend is a most valueable asset to everyone’s life and should not be dropped bec of silly or petty things (or even valid disagreenment.) with time, patience and effort problems can be solved, however both parties have to have mutual feelings toward each other and be willing to work on the relationship. that having been said, a husband is the ultimate, closest of friends and has to be someone who you will feel comfortable sharing everything with and accepting them as they are, not with plasn to change them to be how you want. all friendships eventually encounter some bump in the roads, and a marriage is no different and therefore, you have to know the way of dealing with it. it really bothers me when you hear/see of ppl who break up relationships (marriage or friendships) bec of issues that with some care can be resolved…am i suppose one way of preventing (or lessening) the rate of such, in marriages, would prob be by enlongating the dating period, so that each person gets to know the REAL person within the person they are dating.

    however, as with everything, we must have alot of siyata d’shmaya,f aith and emunah and Hashem will guide us all!

    #646222

    Joseph
    Participant

    How do you know this?

    Superior intellect.

    #646223

    beacon
    Participant

    Joseph- show us your case study

    #646224

    Joseph
    Participant

    beacon – if I referred you to my Ph.D. dissertation, my cover would be blown.

    #646225

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Joseph, the people who date very short also live in societies where divorce is much more taboo (not that it doesnt happen, just that its not as rampant). People stay in terrible marriages to avoid the taboo of raising their kids alone.

    You will never find out “everything” you need to know and short dating can work, as long as you have uncovered the most important things and are both being intellectually honest with each other. There is no magic amount of time.

    Also, I had a friend who dated her husband for 3 months (short in my circles) and then got married 3 months later. Turned out he was addicted to painkillers. He was able to hide it quite easily. He even had just come out of rehab when they met. No one except his parents knew so all the research in the world wouldnt help. They got divorced (and thankfully didnt have kids).

    #646226

    teen
    Member

    an open book: i agree with what you are saying but unfortunatly that is a lot easier said than done

    jospeh: yes that is pretty much y i cant show u my quadruple major in quantum physics, biology, psycology, and mathmatices 😛 not to mention the too numerous to mention minors

    #646227

    tzippi
    Member

    Teen, An Open Book, I think you’ll do well. Just one thing you should know: true, we accept our own imperfections so may feel hypocritical being turned off by another’s. BUT if as you go out, something you’ve noticed continues to bother you take that as a sign that it will always bother you. And if there is anything more serious than that, something that shows seriously flawed middos or dangerous tendencies (controlling, abuse, e.g.) RUN. You can always talk to a shadchan in a way that leaves the door open in the former case, “Maybe we can revisit in a year or so if we’re both available,” but you’re always better off by erring on the side of caution.

    #646228

    Joseph
    Participant

    SJS – Those same communities that date less, generally have happier marriages (in addition to less divorces.)

    #646229

    an open book
    Participant

    teen: i didn’t say it was easy to do, & i don’t think it is. but i don’t see how shorter/longer dating period really helps. isn’t it more about the outlook of each person?

    #646230

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Joseph, I am not sure you can quanitify happier marriages. You can quantify less divorces, but that doesnt necessarily indicate happier marriages.

    #646231

    BasYisroel2
    Participant

    Joseph

    “SJS – Those same communities that date less, generally have happier marriages (in addition to less divorces.)”

    That is completley incorrect.

    A family friend of ours is a social worker who councels many people who are terribly unhappy in their marriges (and are even being abused) from those communities that date less.

    You cannnot belive the number of people from those communities that want out of their marrige but they don’t want to get divorce because then they will get a bad name-divorcing is very tabbo in their communities.

    And just because people are married that doesn’t mean that they are happy or are not being abused in a marrige.

    You have no idea who really has a happy marrige as you are not with every couple in the community that you are refering to 24/7

    People that are in an abusive relationship it is very difficult for them to walk away.

    A woman told me that she was in an abusive marrige for 15 years and she finally got the guts to get a divorce.

    I am not sure if you are aware now but Gedolim have come out strongly today saying that a couple needs to date at least 8-10 times with the “Divorce?broken engagment criss”.

    #646233

    Joseph
    Participant

    BasYisroel,

    What I said is correct, despite the anecdotal stories you present.

    Btw, please advise which Gedolim insist on at least 8-10 dates. (If you’d like, I can advise which insist otherwise.)

    #646235

    000646
    Participant

    Joseph,

    you said “Those same communities that date less, generally have happier marriages (in addition to less divorces.)”

    Again, can you tell us from were and how you got this information?

    Why do you beleive this to be the case?

    #646236

    oomis
    Participant

    “The viability of the marriages of those in the frum community that date less frequently, is notably more lasting than those who have many dates”

    Unfortunately, that simply does not appear to be true any more.

    #646237

    Joseph
    Participant

    oomis – it is.

    #646239

    amichai
    Participant

    joseph, it seems to me it’s not the amount of time the couple is dating but rather the backgrounds from which the couples come from.

    #646244

    Many times the communities/circles that date less are also the ones that the couples would never get divorced, as they will not be able to find another spouse…

    I know of someone who dated for a short time and was not able to find out about the spouse’s state of mental health. If one does not date over the course of a few weeks, in different settings and times of day (It does not have to be every night, but rather once or twice a week for a few weeks….) then one cannot be sure of who the person really is. Someone told me that they recommend to people that at least one of the dates be more then a lobby or a meal and be something like board games, miniature golf ect (depending on the circle) so that the other person can see their competitive nature and if they could dare to lose. Are they too competitive, poor losers, too serious about a silly game, or gloating if they win? It shows a different side to the person. Yes, I know that this would not be acceptable in every community but for those that would, it could be a good idea.

    #646245

    i once played boggle on a date and the boy was to into the game to even talk(he wasnt even good)he was concentrating so hard on the game and when we played however many games we left-it was a pointless date

    #646246

    oomis
    Participant

    Joseph, in my experience it is not. My children are friendly with young women with whom they have worked in B”Y type environments. Several of these girls became engaged after a very short time (a few short weeks), got married soon after, and divorced within a year’s time. I don’t believe this is an anomaly. It is a possibly preventable tragedy. Getting to know someone better is always a good idea. I said it before and I will say it one mroe time – a shidduch that is good after 8 dates will be as good or better after 20.

    #646247

    Joseph
    Participant

    oomis – that is anecdotal. The rule is the opposite. Shorter dating = healthier marriages & less divorces. (There are exceptions to every rule.)

    #646248

    PM
    Member

    If the family has researched thoroughly and the dating is focused on “tachlis”, 8 times should be plenty.

    #646249

    dd
    Member

    Coke: “i once played boggle on a date and the boy was to into the game to even talk(he wasnt even good)he was concentrating so hard on the game and when we played however many games we left-it was a pointless date”

    Doesn’t sound pointless at all to me. You learned that you are not compatible. That’s the whole point of a date.

    #646250

    beacon
    Participant

    coke- where did you go that you could play boggle??

    #646251

    we played in a lobby

    #646252

    000646
    Participant

    Joseph,

    You said “The rule is the opposite. Shorter dating = healthier marriages & less divorces. (There are exceptions to every rule.)”

    A number of the posters that disagree with you backed themselves with either stories that they themselves have seen, or from speaking to therapists or other professionals.

    You have failed to bring a single reason why you hold as you do. You just keep insisting that things are that way, do you have a reason for assuming this to be true or not? If you have a reason please post it.

    #646253

    teen
    Member

    joseph: <i>Shorter dating = healthier marriages & less divorces. </i>

    where did u get this formula from?

    #646254

    Phyllis
    Member

    I was once in chasidishe camp for a summer to help out with a program, and in that time i made some very close chasidishe friends that do very short dating times. We discussed this openly and they all confirmed that their parents do tons of info (in which MIDDOS are thoroughly researched), they marry pretty much the same family background (which solves a lot of problems), and do very little dating in which the goal is to see if they feel comfortable with eachother. SOme come from large families where they are all extremely happily married.

    In fact one friend told me that there is nothing like being engaged to someone that u respect, and heard wonderful things about. She said by the time u get married you are so excited to get to know this person better. She said the she spent shana rishona with such a closeness to her husband, all they were doing and were intersted in was getting to know eachother better. And since they were already married they are able to do this any which way they want, without limitations.

    U cannot generalize, but Dr. Yael Respler, who is clearly NOT chasidish, and deals with marriage counseling more than any of us, tremendously encourages chasidish dating. She said if this can be done by the litvish/modern there would much less divorces.

    #646255

    Joseph
    Participant

    from an adom gadol.

    #646256

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    In fact one friend told me that there is nothing like being engaged to someone that u respect, and heard wonderful things about. She said by the time u get married you are so excited to get to know this person better. She said the she spent shana rishona with such a closeness to her husband, all they were doing and were intersted in was getting to know eachother better. And since they were already married they are able to do this any which way they want, without limitations.

    I have a few issues with this (for me – not for people that the system works for).

    1) It rushes the physical relationship. I was happy that I was able to truly know my husband before anything physical could possible happen.

    2) I wanted to know and respect (and in my case love) my husband BEFORE marrying him. What happens if you spend extended time together and decide the person might be wonderful and respectful and have great middos – and even compatible personality wise, but there is just something missing. It happens plenty of times while dating, but now you are stuck in a marriage.

    I doubt this system would work for most people I know. That doesnt mean its wrong for everyone though, and I can understand the feeling of relief knowing that your parents basically pick out your spouse and as long as you are compatible, you make it work.

    Joseph, while the person may have been an adam gadol, that statement doesnt have any backing. Did they do a full research study on the happiness of marriages? Can they quantify happiness in marriage? Like I said, you can quanitify divorce, but you cannot quantify happiness.

    #646257

    Joseph-and what is the proof for this? To those I have spoken to about this, it seems counter-intuitive…

    one reason that there are less divorces by the chasidish sects is that it is not an option for them, and is “tabboo”. If they divorce, they are seen as “problematic” and so forth. The couples are more willing to put up with abuse and sticky marriages/ health or mental health issues to be able to put up a front for the world. By allowing the young men and women to go out on shidduchim, they see if they are compatible, rather then just listening to their parent’s wishes even when they differ from the parents.

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 185 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending