Short Skirts

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  • This topic has 145 replies, 31 voices, and was last updated 8 months ago by ujm.
Viewing 46 posts - 101 through 146 (of 146 total)
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  • #2047483
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Ujm,

    Random example of the top of my Should the emphasis be on purely an obviously moral dresscode or should there be mindfulness not to be too obviously different….. Etc… I really do not care………

    #2047486
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    When I cross the street, I attempt to keep my mind on crossing the street. If I see skin, I have better things to think about them the gender. For sure I have no way of knowing if her knee is showing.

    #2047502
    ujm
    Participant

    So you wouldn’t even realize whether the pedestrian who crossed in front of your car, while you waited with your foot on the break watching them pass, was a man or a woman. Interesting. How do you know when you can move your car again without running him/her over?

    Would you have known the difference whether it was an indecently dressed woman or a horse from the NYPD stable on street patrol that passed in front of your eyes while you patiently watched and waited for her/it to pass?

    #2047515
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Driving on rural roads, NYPD horse patrols are far from my mind. It is the same for woman’s body parts. Are you sure you are a admitted Jew? What is on your mind when you drive?

    I can not describe to you any of the horses or people I passed while I was driving today.

    #2047538
    ujm
    Participant

    If you were driving on a rural road and unexpectedly passed your wife or mother or daughter, you wouldn’t have noticed who she is and would have simply driven right by her?

    Even if she was crossing the street in front of your windshield while you were braking to let her cross?

    #2047549
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Definitely possible. Father and brother too. What they would be doing out here, is anybody’s guess.

    #2047553
    ujm
    Participant

    Are you sure you’re human?!

    #2047556
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    It’s not a big deal. Just keep your mind on what your doing.

    #2047559
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    The trick is what to do with yourself on a day the yetzer harah is getting to you. Either get to your gemara first. Or your physics book. What ever fills your brain. Or, humble yourself big time.

    #2047566
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Looks like 2022 will be no better than 2021 in terms of the pathetic cries from the dysfunctional self-appointed tzinius police seeking help for their yetzer horah addictions. Good news is that there are some excellent self-help books available for these troubled neshamas along with professional therapists (some advertising here on YWN) that will take on even the most difficult cases. A refuah shelamah in ’22 and may you be zocheh to not get run over by an 18 wheeler crossing the street while focused on the bare knee across the median strip.

    #2047777
    user176
    Participant

    This topic mostly bothers those who struggle with it most. It’s a given that people need to set their own personal safeguards for whatever they struggle with. In this particular example spreading awareness and education may help in general, but a rant on YWN wont do anything to help. If a true yere shamayim knows the yesser hara is waiting for him at every red light he would avoid red lights. It’s often those who are incredibly makpid and the most concerned about keeping a Halacha that struggle with it the most. If those efforts were focused inwards instead of outwards a lot more would be accomplished.

    #2047816
    OrangeCountyChapper
    Participant

    Someone should develop an app that works like the traffic alerts on navigation apps. Users could report tzinius violations while driving, which would then become a warning to fellow travelers driving through the same location.

    #2047833
    ujm
    Participant

    I wonder whether those folks who downplay pritzus or mock those who adhere to Halacha and promote encouraging others to follow the letter of the law on this topic, also mock and downplay Mechalel Shabbos and eating treif.

    #2047856
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    When the SAME posters keep regurgitating variations of the SAME musar-posts on tzinius (moving from sheitels to neckline, to sleeve length to skirt length with an intermittent gevalt about sightings of “form-fitting” garments and starting over again with snoods, tichels or shpitzels ), mockery is an appropriate response. And no, the “mocker” may well be shomer shabbos and kashrus.

    #2047877
    ujm
    Participant

    I just counted the tznius threads in the coffee room. In the over 13 years the coffee room has existed, there is less than one thread per year, on average. And a larger than proportional representation are from over 10 years ago. If, literally, less than one tznius discussion per year is too much for you, the problem lies within. Why are you afraid of discussing this uncomfortable-for-you topic?

    This is one of the least discussed topics and yet perhaps the one that needs the most attention, given the abysmal state modern society finds itself on this issue.

    There have been more than 10 times *each* as many discussions about shidduchim, cholent, elections, corona, Shabbos and Trump, among others. I haven’t heard you complain about there being too many discussions about the elections or about cholent.

    #2047878

    Orange > Users could report tzinius violations while driving

    “report while driving” is not safe, unless you meant ” tzinius violations while driving”. This is done better automatically. Online platforms already have skin detectors to censor inappropriate images, just add two lower notches, one for Jews and a lower one for Muslims.

    #2047881
    crazy horse
    Participant

    Why do I have to take a side between ztnius police and women with short skirts?
    This is obviously a women’s yetzer harah that most men won’t understand,
    But a lot of men have other things that women don’t understand.
    The gra used to sit and learn with the windows shut with candlelight even by day
    and he made a bigger hashpaha on the world than many professional speakers.

    #2048015
    user176
    Participant

    Musar has a time and place. I very much hope that this post will inspire the encouragement of seniut and at the same type hope that you use your zealousness for a platform that will bear more fruits for your labor.

    #2048054
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    “This is one of the least discussed topics and yet perhaps the one that needs the most attention”

    Modesty is the opposite of needing attention. Calling our attentions to immodesty, does not promote tznius. This is why most good Jews just stay on the sidelines. Those that are loudly promoting tznius, seem to think the same as those who are immodest.

    I’m sorry if your really bothered by modern trends, but encouraging public discussion of such trends is counter-productive.

    #2048107

    n0 > Modesty is the opposite of needing attention

    when a certain senator was trying to define tznius into legislation, he was asked to give a strict definition of what lack of tznius is. He answered: I know when I see it.

    #2048167
    TS Baum
    Participant

    @GadolHaDorah
    If you have a problem with this thread, then go tell all your freinds to become more tzniusdik and start an organization encouraging women to keep the halachos of tznius. I don’t believe you don’t know anyone that isn’t following the halachos of tznius properly. Go and get them to follow the halachos properly, and then tell the coffee room members to be quiet. It seems like you yourself have a problem with tznius. And discussing it on the coffee room can actually bring a good result.

    #2050853
    bored_teen 💕
    Participant

    I barely read ant of this but I’m totally creeped out that this is a topic that men sit and schmooze about. Don’t you have anything better to do than talk about girls’ knees?

    #2050869
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @ bored_teen (AKA @trump-2024) To be fair, I said that this should be a topic decided on only by women and girls.

    #2051174
    crazy horse
    Participant

    Not at all creepy, not sure which world you live in.

    #2052167
    moishekapoieh
    Participant

    don’t know about short skirts, but, why do seminary girls wear BLACK school uniforms? are they in mourning? young girls should wear COLORS. plenty of time after marriage to mourn (just kidding about that)

    #2052344
    ujm
    Participant

    Yeshiva guys wear white shirts and black pants. Why are you only upset that the girls have a uniform and okay with that guys? (Both should wear uniforms.)

    Additionally, when everyone is wearing the same uniform, it creates a more tzniusdik environment. And dark is less noticeable than “COLORS”.

    #2052380
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Bored; men talk about blood and guts while eating supper in yeshivos, and plenty of other stuff that would shock you – gemara snd halacha discussions don’t phase people who are learning. I understand that it’s something that can make you feel uncomfortable, but in the context of everything else lomdei torah talk about, it isn’t necessarily creepy.

    #2052382

    We are not allowed to wear fully black, which is a non-Jewish minhag. Overall, there were different minhagim in history: in Israel, men would buy line for their wives; in Bavel – coloured clothes, if I remember correctly. Red was not OK. None were black.

    #2052672
    bored_teen 💕
    Participant

    @ujm- there is absolutely no Halacha that says women can’t wear colorful things. The goal is to allow people to see us as a person not as a body, that doesn’t require us to wear black shmattes! When you start putting restrictions on people that aren’t sourced in Halacha or Rabinical guidance, you’re gonna turn people off. Let people follow Halacha and Rabanim and leave your opinions out of this.

    @Avira- I don’t care how gory your guys’ conversations get. That has nothing to do with the fact that 1. Your opinion on this doesn’t hold any weight bc you’re not rabanim so these conversations are unproductive. And 2. These discussions among men probably don’t lead anywhere good.

    #2052786
    lakewhut
    Participant

    UJM why are you staring at random women’s skirts?

    #2052814
    bored_teen 💕
    Participant

    Lakewhut- Good question!

    #2052903
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    ujm,

    “I just counted the tznius threads in the coffee room. In the over 13 years the coffee room has existed, there is less than one thread per year, on average. “

    What percentage of those tznius threads did you start, not necessarily as ujm?

    #2052905
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    n0mesorah,

    “When I cross the street, I attempt to keep my mind on crossing the street”

    “Driving on rural roads, NYPD horse patrols are far from my mind.”

    “Definitely possible. Father and brother too. What they would be doing out here, is anybody’s guess”

    These are some good examples of anecdotal argumentative fallacies. Not everyone requires all of their brain power to cross a street. Not everyone lives in a rural area. And you should probably be paying more attention to what’s around you while behind the wheel or you may blow past a flagger at a construction site and CV”S kill a construction worker, or be one one of those drivers who doesn’t help someone who’s in distress.

    Also, passing someone on the street is only one example of everyday human interaction, so it’s interesting to me how that becomes the de facto tznius paradigm on the CR.

    #2052927
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    What percentage of those tznius threads did you start, not necessarily as ujm?
    😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

    #2052920
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    bored_teen,

    “I barely read ant of this but I’m totally creeped out that this is a topic that men sit and schmooze about.”

    In my experience, men in the real world do not sit and schmooze together about this. There are a select few male posters on the CR who really like to bring these topics up.

    #2052928
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    AviraDeArah,

    “Bored; men talk about blood and guts while eating supper in yeshivos, and plenty of other stuff that would shock you”

    We’re not talking about teenagers here. And if my sons were to start talking about gross or inappropriate things at the table I would correct them. And Yeshiva boys speaking inappropriately at the table or in the beis medrash or at any other time should also be corrected by their rebbes/menahels.

    “gemara snd halacha discussions don’t phase people who are learning. I understand that it’s something that can make you feel uncomfortable, but in the context of everything else lomdei torah talk about”

    We are not learning maseches Brachos on this thread. This is not a beis medrash, and this is not talking in learning. We are on a public internet forum with a mixed audience of various ages and backgrounds. And the idea that lomdei Torah would speak in a way that makes others uncomfortable is motzi shem ra.

    “it isn’t necessarily creepy. “

    Creepy to the max.

    #2052944
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Avram, i wasn’t clear – i didn’t mean blood and guts stam azoi, i meant they can talk about sugyos like zerikah, shechita, simanim, and tons more

    #2052950
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Avirah – I think you misunderstand what she (and others) meant by creepy. It isn’t about men not being allowed to discuss tznius, as ujm tried to claim, nor is it about menm speaking about all sorts of subjects. The creepy factor is what Avram said, that men speaking about women’s bodies, their reactions to it or distraction by it is not an appropriate discussion to be had in mixed company. If you approached my daughter and told her you found her skirt distracting, you would be asked to leave whatever setting you found yourself in.
    One creepy predator in our community was giving a group of young girls a ride home from a wedding. In the car on the way home he had a tape playing of a shiur of proper mikvah preperations. Are you going to tell me it’s halacha so no problem?
    Creepy

    #2052961
    ujm
    Participant

    Avram: A small minority of them. Additionally, I’ve started very many more threads on Zionism (among many more topics) than this; should I supply that number as well?

    Why is it that this particular topic makes people nervous? When discussing Zionism, Loshon Hora, Kashrus, Kollel, or Shidduchim you never have anywhere the number of complaints against even daring to have the hava mina of even talking about the subject. I submit that this is directly because the difficulty many have (both female and well as male head of households who carry the sacred obligation of enforcing them) in complying with the laws on the issue of tznius. And that’s all the more reason to discuss it.

    “In my experience, men in the real world do not sit and schmooze together about this.”

    I can’t speak about your experience, but in the densely populated centers of Judaism, such as in Eretz Yisroel, New York and elsewhere, this topic is very much and often raised by Rabbonim in droshos to both men and women, as well as reminders placed on posted notices in the communities and is certainly often discussed among the Klal and Yeshivaleit as a topic of Halacha and Limud Torah.

    I don’t recall you objecting to discussions here of other halachic topics. Even if it applied primarily to one gender or the other. This particular topic is at least as much the responsibility of fathers and husbands as it is of female members of the family.

    #2052987
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Syag, you and i are talking about very different situations.

    #2053048

    > And Yeshiva boys speaking inappropriately at the table or in the beis medrash or at any other time should also be corrected by their rebbes/menahels.

    Rebbeim may not be there. I heard it from an esteemed Rav that when Magid Shiur will tell them that they are skipping the next blatt, the boys will be spending that might learning through it … Things are different now with Artscroll.

    #2053623
    crazy horse
    Participant

    Nothing more creepy than a teenage girl, teaching a bunch of men hilchos tznius.

    #2053727
    bored_teen 💕
    Participant

    Sure, because that’s what happened 🙄

    #2054232
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    ujm,

    “A small minority of them. Additionally, I’ve started very many more threads on Zionism (among many more topics) than this; should I supply that number as well?”

    Nah, whatever. OPs aren’t very representative of participation in any given topic, my comment was in jest, and if you’ve got time to compile random CR posting statistics, I do not.

    “Why is it that this particular topic makes people nervous?”

    I’m not nervous about the topic at all. There are appropriate times and ways to discuss certain things, and there are inappropriate times and ways to discuss certain things. This thread falls into the latter category. If you bring your tefillin into the bathroom, I will object to you having your tefillin in there, and it isn’t because I don’t think tefillin are an important mitzvah and that you should have tefillin.

    “I submit that this is directly because the difficulty many have (both female and well as male head of households who carry the sacred obligation of enforcing them) in complying with the laws on the issue of tznius. And that’s all the more reason to discuss it.”

    And I submit that the manner in which you bring up this topic is itself a breach of tznius. When I see rabbonim talk about tznius, it is to men or women separately, and there’s no exhaustive review of all the problematic garments. When I see flyers or signs, the positive (dress this way) is emphasized, not the negative (don’t wear this or that). To do otherwise lacks eidelkeit.

    ” “In my experience, men in the real world do not sit and schmooze together about this.”

    I can’t speak about your experience, but in the densely populated centers of Judaism, such as in Eretz Yisroel, New York and elsewhere, this topic is very much and often raised by Rabbonim in droshos to both men and women, as well as reminders placed on posted notices in the communities”

    Drashos and signs are not sitting and schmoozing. Those are appropriate venues. And I bet the signs describe the appropriate way of dressing, not the inappropriate, which you have done. There is a world of difference.

    “and is certainly often discussed among the Klal and Yeshivaleit as a topic of Halacha and Limud Torah.”

    If you think this thread is an example of a halachic discussion or proper limud Torah, then I don’t know what to tell you.

    “I don’t recall you objecting to discussions here of other halachic topics.”

    I’ll let you do the research on that for me.

    #2054282
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    AviraDeArah,

    “i didn’t mean blood and guts stam azoi, i meant they can talk about sugyos like zerikah, shechita, simanim, and tons more”

    Understood, sorry for misunderstanding before.

    #2054294
    ujm
    Participant

    Avram:

    1. My offer to count them was in jest, too. Though, making a point, at the same time.

    2. I didn’t think *you* are apprehensive about this topic. But I know many others are. I once came out of a shiur where the Rov discussed the importance of women dressing tzniusdik, and there was this guy outside ranting that it’s none of the rabbis business and he has no right to talk about the subject. (The same thing I’ve been pointing out happening here.)

    3. I disagree with your assessment that such discussion is inappropriate or a breach of the issue itself. Apparently, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

    4. I’m not following your differentiation of stating the appropriate way of dressing (which you’re okay with) versus the inappropriate way of dressing. A poster or drasha saying “areas x, y and z must be covered” (or a dress must be loose) is much different than if it said “areas x, y and z must not be uncovered” (or a dress must not be tight)?

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