September 16, 2010 3:06 am at 3:06 am #696606
SJSinNYC, Oomis and others, do not worry. The gemorah in Taanis clearly implies that that was wrong and extreme reaction. Moreover, gemora in Taanis 13B and in the end of 1-st perek of Kidushin is clear that a shiduch-age girl should dress nicely ( but, of course, tsniusdic — no short skirts).September 16, 2010 3:08 am at 3:08 am #696607
Kasha, where in the world there is such a Chazon Ish? ( I do not believe there is.)September 16, 2010 10:09 am at 10:09 am #696609
moq and mdd: The Chazon Ish was asked whether nowadays it is possible to consider slacks as not such a forbidden garment, since so many women wear them. To this the Chazon Ish responded that in spite it being worn by many, it is absolute pritzus to walk around in such a garment, adding that he was convinced if at the time of the Sanhedrin a woman would have appeared in public in slacks, she would have been brought to Beis Din and stoned for behaving with gross indecency. See Orchos Rabbeinu, Vol. One, page 226.
[The Orchos Rabbeinu was authored by Hagoan Harav Avraham Horowitz, chavrusa of and talmid muvhak of the Steipler Gaon as well as very close to the Chazon Ish. His father-in-law is Rav Chaim Yehuda Leib Auerbach, father of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach. Rav Avraham also authored the halachic seforim “Devar Halacha”.]
moq, the gemorahs you cited causing death for things like teaching a posuk wrong, are divine punishments. Here we are talking about punishment by the Court (Beis Din).September 16, 2010 11:11 am at 11:11 am #696610MoqMember
You know, you could look at the Gemaras. Could you do that for us, and see what some of them are talking about? And see if they are comparable to the Gemara in Taanis?
Maybe Shaul actually cut off some guys head?
Maybe Chazal cursed the other to die? (Or lose their eyeballs – just like the Gemara in Taanis, via a curse?)
Right, so when you said ” see Chazon Ish” , you didn’t mean anything he actually wrote – you meant see a storybook about him. Ok. And you assumed we knew that. That misleading, but ok.
Now for some beautiful context- Sandhedrin can dish our whatever onesh it wants for whatever. There is a din that one is beaten for not listening to beis din. And if you don’t listen, you get hit again. Until – well, you’re dead. Hence this story about the Chazon Ish. But that is a method of enforcement of ANYTHING the sanhedrin decides. They also killed someone for pulling off a branch on shabbos and another case, who was merely a drabban. The actual onesh is not death; not listening to the supreme body of Halacha is – like a zaken mamrey.
That’s a Gemara. But if you want a real source, maybe it’s in some artscroll biography.
I suppose most of our girls , even those horrible horrible short skirt wearing ones (many who have been told that if they are not attractive are not worthy of existing – by the media, and ultimately by the frum male population in it’s subtle requests in the world of shidduchim), would listen to a Sanhedrin of the greatest Talmidey Chachamim in the generation telling them not to wear something specific.
Problem is that we don’t have that clarity, even if most Rabbonim forbid something, there is no Din Sanhedrin on them. While I do wish our girls ( and please, there is no “us” and “them”) would dress differently, I am not so arrogant as to wish death upon them. I wish them a year of health, wealth, spiritual success & self-esteem – and then tzinius will grow by itself, without me needing to burn any tires. Yitamu Chataim, and not Yitamu Chotim. Of course, Beruriah was a girl.
And maybe see those Gemaras?
Great, I’ve had to say something logical again.
So yes, tzinius is important, yes there’s a problem – and I’m not in the slightest interested in discussing it, merely to laugh at the discussion – but can we leave corporal punishment out of it?September 16, 2010 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #696611
My dear and beloved brother Moq, I did not cite the gemorah in Taanis. Another poster did, and you are conflating me with him.
Yesterday when I made my brief comment citing the Chazon Ish, I did so from memory. When you (and later someone else as well) asked for my source, I spend a considerable amount of time to find it, as I had not recalled where I had seen it. Yes, it was written by the Chazon Ish’s close acquaintance, a Talmid Chochom and Tzadik in his own right, rather than by the CI himself. Its accuracy isn’t in question, the Orchos Rabbeinu is cited numerous times by later Torah authorities as a source for many issues. My apologies for having not been clear initially, relying on memory. But comparing it to an Artscroll biography comes from being influenced by the numerous anti-Torah blogs out there that don’t like them. (I’m still waiting for the comparisons to stoning by the Sanhedrin to the typical retorts about Ayatollahs, burqas, and the Taliban.)
Yes, the Court had authority to dish out appropriate punishment even if it wasn’t specifically written in a source that its a death penalty issue. That was my point. Nevertheless, they would not execute someone who ate a meat-and-cheese sandwich, even multiple times after being lashed. The punishment wouldn’t fit the crime.
Gross public indecency, says the Chazon Ish, is a crime fitting for execution. That means even wearing slacks outside, let alone the far worse crime of leaving ones legs uncovered at times in public, with a short skirt.
No, nobody here wants to execute the prutzas with the short skirts. Everyone wants them to do teshuva. Or at least start by not actually defending such abominable behavior. But pointing out that this kind of unrepentant public behavior is worthy of being stoned for, was not my thing. It is the Chazon Ish.September 16, 2010 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #696614000646Participant
“Gross public indecency, says the Chazon Ish, is a crime fitting for execution. That means even wearing slacks outside, let alone the far worse crime of leaving ones legs uncovered at times in public, with a short skirt.”
Does it say anwere what the C”I based this opinion on? Or even that it was meant literally? (unlike those chazals about forgetteing a possuk etc. which arn’t literal)September 16, 2010 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #696615
I’m not arguing with the chazon ish, just trying to understand his svara (the way the chazon ish is quoted is “I am convinced…”). Didn’t beis din give makas mardus to those who they felt were out of line, so to speak?September 16, 2010 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #696616tzippiMember
Re the notarabbi quote: never fear, I have no problems with not being able to learn gemara. I would suggest that if someone quotes something like this, it be crystal clear that this is pashut pshat, and something for us to take with us l’maaseh. I happen to have what is probably a very basic question: But she was behind the fence! And who was the father of this boy?
I don’t need answers, just saying that it’s dangerous to throw stuff like that into discussions such as these.
And was it notI who said that someone was asking about shidduchim and out of town girls wears pleated skirts, in town wear straight?
Wow, just when I thought I heard it all….September 16, 2010 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #696617
Tziporra, see my post above.September 16, 2010 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #696618
A father asking Hashem to kill his own child because she is too pretty? Please, didn’t he have enough faith and trust in Hashem that He made her that way for a reason? Couldn’t he have built a bigger fence or one that was not see through? Couldn’t he have wished his neighbor to be blind because he could not fight off his yetzer harah? Or better yet, couldn’t he have had enough faith in Hashem that he prayed for his neighbor to overcome his yetzer horah? Wouldn’t that have been a better lesson and end to that story? Hashem didn’t kill the child because HE made her too pretty. If it is true, he killed the child to punish the father for even thinking and asking for such an horrendous bakasha. Cheit avos al habonim.
EDITEDSeptember 16, 2010 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #696619
aries: That is an Amora you are talking about. So you don’t understand the gemorah. But how do you have the chutzpa to come across judging an Amora?!September 16, 2010 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #696620
I don’t know the Amora and I don’t know how the mephorshim at that time or at other times explained this. I don’t know who said it or where it is written.
What I do know is this myfriend, how does everyone here have the chutzpa to keep judging while we are all standing before HASHEM during Yomim Hanoraim, during Aseres Yimei Teshuva.
And you ask ME where I get the chutzpah? Do you know what? My email was edited.
EDITEDSeptember 16, 2010 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #696621not IMember
Ever heard of the phrase “Chill Zich”?!!
before Yom Kippur and you could feel the heat in these exchanges!September 16, 2010 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #696622NEEDIDEASMember
I believe some topics require a certain “careful approach”
Since it is a very serious topic that if you dont discuss all the variables properly to inform, educate, and help people see the truth in a proper way… People will get upset… The best idea would be to ask Das Torah what is the proper way to explain and discuss this very serious and important topic.. Then realize that…we may not be qualified to explain it properly without true guidance of DAS TORAH…
With respect to all on this forum…September 16, 2010 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #696623
Why did my post just disappear?
I will try again.
I think the solution to the tznius problem runs along these lines:
1. Instead of being shocked and disgusted, try reinforcing the alternate spritual beauty of tznius. (In other words, positive is better than negative.)
2. Don’t super focus on tznius as opposed to the many other ills of society. The ranting of some individuals against tznius might stem from a repressed yetzer hara coming out in that way. If the yetzer hara can’t get you one way, it gets you another way.September 16, 2010 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #696625missmeMember
nossond, i agree with you that the rantings against tznius stems from the yetzer hora. anytime the topic of tznius is raised you will find some people ranting against it trying to shut up those people.
i was once in a shul and there was a sign for an upcoming shiur by a very choshuv rov regarding tznius. a person next to me at the sign started ranting “how dare rabbonim speak about tznius! he should mind his own business! its not for men to deal with!” unbelievable. just from seeing a sign for a shiur. i guess he doesn’t realize shulchan aruch talks about tznius, as does so many other seforim. and it is the job of rabbonim and rebbetzins to talk about the problems in this area, as it really is everyone’s responsibility.
i notice this pattern anytime tznius comes up, you have those people. the worst part is that this topic is almost repressed. it is so rarely discussed in real life (outside of the internet and blogs.) i don’t see this phenomenon much with other issues interestingly. we honestly need more of these real life discussions to remind ourselves.September 16, 2010 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #696626
In response to Aries (and anyone else who cares):
“A father asking Hashem to kill his own child because she is too pretty?”
It just so happens that she was very pretty (the gemara stresses that), but the way the maharsha understands his reaction she could have looked like a llama and he would have done the same.
“Please, didn’t he have enough faith and trust in Hashem that He made her that way for a reason?”
He had plenty faith in hashem. See the gemara 2 lines up how he dealt with his son.
“Couldn’t he have built a bigger fence or one that was not see through?”
He had a mighty fine fence. The way Rashi learns the gemara, the fellow bored a hole into the fence so that he could peek through. He caught the peeping tom in the act.
Regarding the “neighbor”. The gemara doesnt say who he was, but he may have been one of his talmidim, the way he addresses him. There MUST be more to the story than the gemara tells us. Does it sound logical to ask a father, I wont be zoche to marry your daughter, let me instead gaze at her beauty and enjoy myself that way.
“Hashem didn’t kill the child because HE made her too pretty. If it is true, he killed the child to punish the father for even thinking and asking for such an horrendous bakasha.”
According to the girsa in our gemara, it is not clear, at all, if she died. the bach has a girsa (he adds one or two words to our text) that she did in fact die.
It should be pointed out, that the Maharsha states that Rav Yosi bar Avin was absolutely positive that Rav Yosi bar (I forget bar who – but the father was also a Rav Yosi) was wrong. His proof? the way avraham Avinu handled the situation with Sarah 9thats all he says, we need to understand the maharsha too).
Also left unanswered is, what was the father thinking with this approach and where does it come from. Also, Rav Yosi bar Avin told Rav Ashi this (and another story recorded about his son) is the reason he left as a talmid and came to learn by Rav Ashi. We dont see that Rav Ashi responded positively, or negatively, although Rav Ashi DID choose to record this story in shas for all generations to learn and understand, so we definitely must try and understand, both sides.
I dont have access to the Maharal on aggados. It is probably something he would go through. the Ben Ish Chai probably explains this gemara too. For now, this is one of those gemaras that you know you cant get bogged down on as you try and finish the massechta, but you definitely want to get back to.September 16, 2010 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #696627SJSinNYCMember
missme, rabbonim should be the ones dealing with this. That is a strange comment.
I do think that tznius discussions are best left amongst rabbonim and women though. I do think its odd if a regular man is so obsessed with tznius on women.September 16, 2010 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #696628peselmalkaMember
Aries2756: YOU GOT ME ALL WRONG!! I was not speaking for the Rebonei Shel Olam! I was just stating some facts about Tznius!I am not forcing it down anyones throat!You are not a woman so don’t understand everything the same way. Any woman who looks in the mirror after getting dressed knows exactly what she is thinking and what she wants others to think of her. By the way I thought I put Tznius in a beautiful light , because thats exactly what it is!! Gmar Tov to all of you!!!September 16, 2010 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #696629
This just showed in my inbox from the Agudas Comission on Torah Projects. From the title of the teleconference, I am willing to bet Tznius will be part of the discussion.
We are pleased to invite all women to a special Pre – Yom Tov telephone conference to be held this coming Tuesday evening, September 21, 2010 at 9:30 PM. This teleconference on the topic of “Making Hashem Proud of us Inside and Out,” will be addressed by Mrs. Chani Juravel, a noted mechaneches and therapist.
To join the teleconference please call 712-432-1001, and enter access code: 495236131#.
In addition to her talk, Mrs. Juravel will be answering questions submitted in advance from the public. Please email your questions for consideration to [email protected] before 5:00 PM, Monday, September 20th.
Best wishes for a Gmar Chasima Tova.September 16, 2010 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #696630
Pesselmalka, I am a woman and a very tzniusdik woman at that. I have mentored many young woman and have changed their minds on the tnius issue in addition to the negiah issue and not in the way that is being done here, thank you very much.
apushitayid, women don’t learn Gemarah and from what you are saying, it is not clear where the story ends nor what the point of the story is. So it is hard to understand the meaning of the story. Yes it still leaves questions unanswered and I imagine there will be many chochamim still debating and trying to figure out its meaning. As for me, what I get out of the story is a lack of emunah in Hashem on the part of the teacher and the talmid. (Of course I know that not to be the case since we are talking about an amora from the gemora, so I just don’t understand the gemora is what I am saying.)
missme, did you here me telepathically keep saying “wish you were here”? I was wondering where you were all this time everyone was contributing to your rant about the “so called frum girls”. Personally I took offense to that term, it was very hurtful and inaccurate because no matter your opinion about the length of their skirts they are still frum girls and hopefully will continue to be. It is quite odd that you left us to fend for ourselves after you dropped this big bomb on us.
In my humble opinion, it should be left to Rabbonim and they should give mussar on how tznius should be taught to young women, in the vein of the beauty of the mitzvah and not that Hashem will punish you and burn you at the stake. Parents and mechanchim alike should be informed on the teaching process immediately and others should be told that it is not up to them to give tochacha since they don’t know how to do it in the right manner.
EDITEDSeptember 16, 2010 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #696632
Aries2756, is someone, who believes in the Torah, but eats treif frum? Chazal call such a person a “mumar”.
SJSinNYC, Chazal do not agree with you.September 16, 2010 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #696633
“Any woman who looks in the mirror after getting dressed knows exactly what she is thinking and what she wants others to think of her.”
I asked my wife if this is true. I gave her the context of this quote. Her response. “I cant speak for other women, but the last thing on my mind is – hey guys, check me out”.September 16, 2010 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #696634
“but eats treif frum?”
Can you clarify?September 16, 2010 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #696635so rightMember
apushuta, obviously you’re wife is a tzanuah b”h. pesel is referring to prutzas.
what mdd was answering aries (who objected to the phrase “so called frum girls” regarding prutzas) that just as someone who believes in the Torah and calls themselves orthodox but eats treif isn’t frum, someone who believes in the Torah and calls themselves orthodox but wears short skirts isn’t frum.September 16, 2010 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #696636MoqMember
You are being intellectually dishonest.
I quoted those Gemaras in response to the Gemara in Taanis. You posted that they were referring to divine punishment. I replied that people executed those judgements. I was not responding to your quoting of the quoting of the Chazon Ish.
You need to think deep and hard about what you accept as reliable & quotable and something you base your life on. It is no doubt convient to be able to dismiss the opinion of somehow who sees things differently based a flippant “anti-torah blogs” without any basic logical reasons. But it doesn’t actually mean anything. Storybooks are not Halacha. Storybooks are stories. But Haskafah comes from Rabbonim themselves, not what the Chazon Ish said – to make a point. Do you the every word the Chazon Ish said he said Halachicly? Yes, I know, mamish mamish, kadosh v’tahor, if we would understand…that this is the silly attitude of artscroll biographies.
Yes, I am disagreeing with you. I will leave you to analyze your own psycology and motivations; I request that you do me the honor of responding to my actual points. Of course, if you have no actual points, you may continue to conjecture about my motivations, and protect your opinions from any arguement. In which case I have little to respond, if the basis for having a valid opinion is to have yours.
The Chazon Ish was a human being. He said something to make a point. He would not have executed a woman based on that. And quoting it here is irresponsible. Ever Gadol has a Torah Sh’Baal Peh and a Torah SH’bKsav. Yes, and this the problem with these seforim, that the context of what was said is totally lost. When Gedolim write, they tell us everything they feel we need to know. When a Gadol says something, for a certain time, place and person – there’s context. Which is lost. Which is why these sforim are fine for hissorerus. But silly to base haskafah or Halacha on.
SJS is right. While Rabbonim are responsible for their communities , and we as a community are responsible for our entire community, and each head of a family for their family – there is an unhealthiness, to put it mildly, of constantly analyzing women’s hemlines and styles. This is another frum atzas hayetzer to get men to focus on women’s dress or lack thereof, and blame them for the effects.
Which is why I personally think this thread is silly. Chazal had power, and established Haskafah for Khal Yisrael. Do we?
Then perhaps men should focus on the details of esrogim, and not women’s skirts. No doubt other women, mechanos, – Rabbonim, parents, will handle that. Sigh. And I have pulled into the blutteh as well. A Gmar Chasimah Tovah. I have much to think about. Personally.
Yes, this is why I have been mocking this conversation.September 16, 2010 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #696637rebdonielMember
A friend of mine and I every week take a stack of index cards and write on them in large letters “Practice Modesty,” and when on the train or walking in the city, we’ll quickly hand these to a pritzusdik-dressed woman, whether frum-looking or not (goyim get the English, and frum-seeming women dressed immodestly get the card which says “Practice Tznius”). We have never been attacked or given a hard time. People take them, and G-d willing, they hold on to it and think about what it says.September 16, 2010 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #696638
“someone who believes in the Torah and calls themselves orthodox but wears short skirts isn’t frum.”
If there is ANYTHING that we should leave to Rabbonim is the right to say that someone is not “frum”. (the word frum. Where does it come from? Is it yiddish? what does it mean literally.)
Do you really believe that girls/women from torahdik homes (I’ll even expand the question to non jewish girls and women )get dressed in the morning and think about how to attract men? If you do, there is nothing I can say or do to change your mind nor do I have the desire to change your mind.September 16, 2010 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #696639
No Moq, you were unclear in earlier comments as to whose comments you were addressing.
And you are not disagreeing with me. I merely related the Chazon Ish. Any disagreement you have, take up with the CI.
The quote was made by Harav Avraham Horowitz zt”l in his Sefer. It would be irresponsible to not quote it.September 16, 2010 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #696640
Aposhutayid, there are chalochos about if people do aveiros what their status is,Not only Rabbonim know this halochos.
Moq, look for the start at Brochos 20A (ma’ase with Mason, Mason 400 zuz). Also, you, probably, meant to leave out the capital punishment out of the discussion, not the corporeal one. There is no question that had such a pirtsa occurred in times of Chazal, they would have whipped a bunch of these ladies, and that would have been the end of the pirtsa. And stop defending the ba’alei aveira and creating an atmosphere that it is not so bad what they are doing. There is no clarity, you say? About what? That the women are obligated to cover their knees?!?September 16, 2010 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #696641000646Participant
I beleive the point here is very simple.
The qoute from the C”I was made in a story book (a very accurate one that we could learn alot from perhaps, but still a story book)
Evrey word the C”I said was not halacha nor was it meant to be taken as such. Qouting it here as if he meant it literally l”halcha is irosponsible and wrong.
For all of you who feel that you can “call to the carpet” rabbonim who disagree with your preconcieved ideas of what is right or wrong (i.e length of sleeves etc.) are no better then those “anti torah bloggers” who call chareidei Gedolim to the carpet for the same reason.September 16, 2010 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #696642
This is getting to be absurd, now you are judging who is frum and who is not. And you are comparing apples to oranges. I didn’t know that Hashem appointed you his helpers this Yom Tov. I am glad you don’t know who I really am and you don’t daven in my shul because you would tip the scales according to your own opinions. I prefer letting Hashem be the judge and weighing what he chooses are the worst crimes and the best mitzvos.
I told the moderators that I was leaving but i keep getting dragged in trying to bring some seichel back to the olam. Remember we are standing before Hashem on Erev Yom Kippur and you actually are deciding who is frum or not depending on the length of a woman’s or girl’s skirt. Absurd!!!September 16, 2010 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #696643Pashuteh YidMember
The Chazon Ish says that bezman hazeh we do not talk harshly to sinners, and certainly do not use any violence, but we try to be mekarev with Ahava. This is not a story, he wrote it himself in his sefer on Chulin.
Second, Remember that the Chazon Ish passed away over 50 years ago. Pants may not have been the norm for women back then, as they are now for many. Back then, people may have been shocked that such a thing existed. Now, most people probably have never known a time when women didn’t wear them.
Third, quoting a difficult gemara, and then insulting those who say they dont understand it or can’t believe it is completely wrong and underhanded. As others pointed out, even the gemara was not complimenting the father who did that. But even if he was, there is a Chazal that says kshem shemitzva lomar davar hansihma, kach mitzvah lo lomar davar sheino nishma. It is a chillul hashem to do so, especially if you yourself don’t understand it. If you can’t explain it in keeping with darchei noam, then better first figure out pshat before hitting someone over the head with it.September 16, 2010 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #696644
missme: a missing word made my previous post have the opposite connotation.
I was saying that men should not super focus on tznius issues. The yetzer hara either gets you to talk about women directly, or it gets you to talk about the same things indirectly. The talk is almost identical, only that the “frum” version has the twist of demonizing the errant ones.
These are women issues. There is a special kedusha Hashem gave to the beis medrash, which allows one to cover these issues in purity. The gemarah clearly says that you should drag the yetzer hara into the beis medrash. He has no power there in its kedusha.
But when the topic is in the street, it’s total yetzer hara, whether it sounds frum or not.
In my oppinion, a public drasha even in shul does not qualify as a beis medrash learning session. These matters are best dealt with by women for women and sometimes by rabbonim for women.
In the real gutter, however, there is no excuse. And the more “frum” it sounds, the more anger and repressed tayva it represents.September 17, 2010 1:10 am at 1:10 am #696645
I did not see anyone here suggesting we implement the Sanhedrin’s treatment of women who display gross indecency in public (as described by the Chazon Ish.) They simply described the severity of dressing outside of halachic standards by noting the seriousness of the penalty in the time of the Sanhedrin. There is no reason to be up in arms. No one is currently collecting stones to make an example over the next prutza. Hence no one is suggesting this is a contemporary halachic issue, since there is no means of implementation. Hence this penalty not being recorded in Shulchan Aruch. Nevertheless, that does not neglect from its serious consequences, as the ultimate penalty imposed for this crime in times of yore surely demonstrate.
Nor do I see anyone judging anyone here. People are simply describing the consequence of such actions on a general note; not on an individual level (e.g. plonis bas plonis dresses badly.) As far as the claim that this issue should not be discussed, this is a halachic matter of discussion. On what basis can one suppress discussion of this halachic matter? Since when are we shy about telling what halacha wants from us? Where is it written that hilchos tznius are an exception? That you *feel* that way, is no anwer. I see no reason to hide this halachic discussion. Or even focus any less on it than the problem demands. By the way, gedolim often call a community tznius asifa (for both men and women) and discuss this problem in shul as well.September 17, 2010 1:27 am at 1:27 am #696646
myfriend, if you don’t see judgment in these posts then I am afraid that you are blind to the meaning of it. You must have been desensitized.September 17, 2010 1:33 am at 1:33 am #696647
What judgement. If you start a new thread about Shabbos and mention driving on Shabbos is assur (and carries a death penalty) are you “judging” all the Shabbos drivers? I think not. The same principle applies here. No names were mentioned.
So *WHO* exactly was judged over here?September 17, 2010 3:09 am at 3:09 am #696648
myfriend, the “so called frum girls” were judged and anyone else who considers themselves frum but are not on the highest madreigah of tznius as deemed by the people here on this thread. That is who is being judged by the people posting to this thread during Aseres Yimei Teshuva. Can I make it clearer than that?
If you started a thread about Shabbos, why would you need to mention that driving on Shabbos is assur? That is a given and it is well known. There are no shades of grey in that area unless of course there is an emergency or someone is having a baby and they are rushing to the hospital. OH but then you would be misjudging them if in your post you said “I saw a so-called frum jew driving his car on Shabbos” You see, it is not up to you to speak about it. The same principle applies here as well. It is your job to “dan people l’kaf zchus” especially your fellow jews and not speak loshon horah about them. even if you don’t use their name you are still besmirching your fellow jews.
Putting on lipstick and mascara is also assur on Shabbos but I see a lot of women who are definitely wearing fresh lipstick on Shabbos. Is it my place to go over and tell them that they are not allowed to do that? Absolutely not! Because for one thing it is not my business. For another thing, maybe they really didn’t learn it or didn’t apply what they learned to this issue, make-up. And thirdly, if I told them and they continued to do it, it is even a worse aveirah and I don’t want to be a part of that. Here is another example. I have been to the manicure spa many times when I have seen frum women in a rush get their hands and feet done at the same time by two different technicians. Now I was taught (yes in Kallah class by a very machmir teacher) that two people are not allowed to work on you at the same time, it is assur. Only in the case of a niftar or nifteres is more than one person allowed to work on them. That is why you might hear a parent reprimand if they are buttoning a child’s coat not to help them, only one person should do it. So back to my example, when the ladies want to rush me out and come at me two at a time I tell them I am not dead yet and only one of them can work on me at a time. They remember that when I come in but they ask me why the other religious ladies don’t say that to them. Is it my job to tell the other ladies they are wrong? Maybe they were never told what I was told. My mother would say “zei nisht gut’s farzorger”.September 17, 2010 3:17 am at 3:17 am #696649
Aries2756, Not judging anyone is a Christian idea. By the Jews, there are rules of properly judging people, and these are discussed in the seifer “Chofets Chaim”.September 17, 2010 3:21 am at 3:21 am #696650
Nossond, find out what the Gemora says in Brochos 20A (ma’ase of Mason and 400 zuz).September 17, 2010 3:33 am at 3:33 am #696651kapustaParticipant
Can I put in a motion to close this thread? If not for good, than at least for Erev Yom Kippur.
I don’t see this going anywhere good.September 17, 2010 4:52 am at 4:52 am #696652
Kapusta, I have asked about 5 or 6 times. I guess they like you better than me, because my requests never got posted or were deleted from my posts. I second, third and fourth the motion!September 17, 2010 4:53 am at 4:53 am #696653
Mdd, our Jewish Idea is Dan L’kaf zchus. That is how WE are permitted to judge if we are permitted to judge at all.September 17, 2010 6:21 am at 6:21 am #696654
mdd: A second heter (beside learning in the beis medrash) is ma’asei beis din. When halachic things need to be carried out, they are done so, without worrying about hirhur. The gemarah Sanhedrin discusses this in regard to the sotah affair and sekilah.
But to discuss these matters in the wrong venue in explicit ways and to super focus on women’s issues is just yetzer hara. Tricky guy he is.September 17, 2010 10:54 am at 10:54 am #696655
That’s the point, Aries2656: there are limits as to where and whom we are supposed to dan le’kaf z’hus.September 17, 2010 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #696656tzippiMember
Mdd, yes, there are limits; check them out. You can start with the famous story Rabbi Pliskin relates of the worker whose boss wouldn’t pay him.
Judging someone is rarely an obligation. Most times, we can interact with people and not judge them. Rare is the occasion when it is not meritorious to judge them l’kaf zechus. A BY girl who is wearing a short skirt does not fall under that category. You approach the person in his or her totality – the bein adam lachavero, the davening (trust me, these girls can and do daven quite seriously) and much more that you don’t have a clue about from a casual interaction. Hold on to the good thoughts.
Just a thought this erev Yom Kippur, from someone who’s going to be judged…September 17, 2010 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #696657charliehallParticipant
The Orchos Rabbeinu may have been arguing on the rabbis of the Kibbutz HaDati movement who expressly permitted trousers. Both opinions have legs on which to stand. (Sorry for the pun.) Who are any of use to argue with either? In the spirit of Yom Kippur, lets allow each of us to follow our own rabbonim and cease charging others with not being frum. On this day of all days we should be looking at our own sins rather than at others.
Gmar Chatima Tovah!September 17, 2010 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #696659
The tables are beginning to turn on this thread and the light is beginning to shine through. On this day of judgment the consensus is becoming clear that “JUDGEMENT” should be left to the Eibishter and WE should remember what we ourselves are begging from him “K’racheim av al banim”
We beg for Rachamim from Hakadosh Baruch hu. So I am also begging you my fellow bloggers for Rachamim, compassion and patience with your fellow Jews. Stop judging them. Stop looking for mekoros to prove that they are wrong and you have the right to judge them. We are all doing something wrong at some time according to Daas Torah. Just by being on the internet and communicating with each other we are ALL WRONG! So please let’s stop judging others and stop arguing which aveirah will carry the worst punishment because you don’t know how Hashem feels about what we are doing right now.
Once again I wish all a G’mar Chasima tova and an easy and meaningful fast. And once again I ask the moderators to close this thread.
PS Mdd, there are NO limits when it comes to dan l’kaf zchus, that is your job and then you walk away, you don’t keep delving and investigating. You stay out of it and leave them alone. Only a yenta and a busybody pokes their nose in another person’s business. If it is not involving you then you can just stay out of it and leave it at that.September 17, 2010 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #696660
We asked in Selichos this morning that the ribbono shel olam silence the prosecutor and close up his mouth.September 19, 2010 1:17 am at 1:17 am #696661
I want to say something about being a role model and teaching OTD and others who “wish” to move up. I was mentoring this teenager many years ago and she told me that she was upset with her Rabbi because he told her she had to hold negiah for 30 days and now he told her to extend it. She felt he tricked her and she wasn’t sure if she was going to listen to him because she felt tricked and didn’t trust him.
So I honestly asked her what the real issue was, did she feel that she had to have physical contact with the boy in order to be friends. She asked me what I was getting at. I told her that if any boy chose not to be her friend because she wouldn’t allow him to touch her then he wasn’t a friend at all. That anyone who didn’t respect you and what you believe in is not worthy of your friendship. That got her thinking.
Then I asked her why she feels the need to have boys in her circle of friends. Again she asked me why I was asking. So I explained to her that she wasn’t thinking about her future only the here and now. In not too many years from that time she would be grown up and be considering marriage. When she will choose her soulmate she will have a string of “friendships” that will be ghosts she will be bringing into her relationship with her husband. How terrible it would be if she will later compare her husband’s smile to that of another “friend” or his laugh or his looks, etc. How would you feel if you had to worry about all your husbands old friends that he might be comparing to you? That is what you risk when you mingle in mixed company, bringing ghosts and barriers into your future marriage.
A week or two later she came back to me with this story: A group of us went on an outing in a big van. The guys were helping us to step out, when it came to my turn and he held out his hand to me I said “no thanks I hold from negiah”. When we were all grouped together he made this big announcement. “I want to congratulate “L” because she goes to P1 and the rest of you girls go to BY. She had the courage to tell me in no uncertain terms that she holds from negiah and would not allow me to assist her out of the van”. Mrs. B, she said, my mouth dropped open I thought I was going to cry, then all the boys started to applaud and whistle for me. They all said how proud they were of me.
Two weeks later she came back and told me she said goodbye to all her friends that were boys and told them that she decided not to speak to boys any longer. They all wished her well.
Today she is married to a very yeshivish boy and she is the most tznius girl you can imagine. You can’t even find one single hair escape from under her teichel, nor will you find any skin showing.
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