December 27, 2012 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #607593
Thread per Gavra’s suggestion.
Is it proper that a poor person who cannot afford rent be told to move to another city where rent is cheaper?
Or is the proper approach for yidden to financially help the ani and help him pay his current rent and stay where he lives?December 27, 2012 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #916503
I think telling someone who cannot afford rent to think about finding a cheaper community to live in so that they can be more comfortable, is a FAR cry from throwing someone out of town.December 27, 2012 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #916504
As a suggestion, yes. As an excuse not to support him, it’s, well, an excuse.
Al pi din, we should even hire people to run before his wagon. Allowing someone to stay in the community where he is comfortable is a valid form of “l’fi k’vodo”, IMO.December 27, 2012 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #916505
I want to live on Park Ave, I am a pauper in that area.
I am taking up Tzdekah for this great cause. Will you B’H in the Zchus of all the great givers of Tzadeak gives to my cause and help me pay the rent so I am not thrown out on the street C’VDecember 27, 2012 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #916506
zd: The Halacha is that if a rich man living on Park Avenue can no longer afford his rent, the community is obligated to pay his rent with Tzedakah.December 27, 2012 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #916507
Collecting money to raise someone’s standard of living (which you are rhetorically suggesting) is not a valid use of tzeddakah money. Helping someone maintain their current standard of living is. That’s the halacha.December 27, 2012 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #916508
here we go again with the hyperbole. no one is suggesting to throw a pauper out of town. NO ONE.
zahavasdad, sarcasm in good humor, i’m all for; your sarcasm, besides being unfunny, is so out of place. your example is also completely off base. perhaps you missed the halacha that we are m’chuyav to support someone in the manner in which THEY ARE USED TO, not in which they choose to. this is halacha, not a con.
that being said, suggesting that OOT is much cheaper to live, is a consideration that many would see as being very valid. obviously the original thread was talking about someone who does not want to be collecting tzedaka. therefore, in that case, i do think it is perfectly reasonable to suggest considering moving OOT.December 27, 2012 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #916509
If a person cannot pay their rent, they should move. That’s that. I should not be responsible to help someone love beyond their means. That being said, tzedaka is a very important mitzvah, one that I am sure almost all of us here do daily. I would love to buy a house right now but it’s just not In the cards. Should everyone pull together and purchase a house for me, or should I continue renting my apartment until I am financially secure enough to buy a house?December 28, 2012 12:43 am at 12:43 am #916510
The favorite food in my house is Sushi, We dont eat Gefiltle Fish on Shabbos. We eat Sushi and not California rolls either, Usually Yellow Tails. Only the best in my house
For Kiddish Any Domestic Wines are Assur in my house, especially wines from New York. We only drink imported wine from usually Italy but sometimes France.
For Motzei we eat whole wheat Organic Challas.
For the Main course on Shabbos we usually go a little easy and have Roast Lamb Chops. Chicken is banned from my house
We are also a bit of a little drunks around here and ALWAYS have Johnny Walker Blue.
I am glad to know that if anything would happen to my income you would continue to support me in my cullinary tastesDecember 28, 2012 1:28 am at 1:28 am #916511
zsdad: If that were true, in fact we’d be halachicly required to give you tzedaka to maintain that lifestyle should you lose your high income.
But we are not even talking about a rich man having a drop in income. We are talking about a poor man who became poorer and now cannot afford even the little he previously had.
It would be cruel and unjewish to brush him off and tell him to move elsewhere. And unhalachic.December 28, 2012 2:30 am at 2:30 am #916512
When people cannot afford the tuition in a fancy upscale Yeshivah, or even for their children’s higher education, if they cannot get a scholarship, they need to look for a less pricey place to send them. I don’t think a poor person (myself included) is ENTITLED to live where he wants and expect others to financially enable him to do so. But to actually tell someone to move someplace cheaper (unless he asks for an aitzah), seems very harsh.December 28, 2012 5:20 am at 5:20 am #916513
What’s a fancy, upscale Yeshiva? If you’re paying for gourmet. meals and expensive trips, I agree. If the higher tuition is for better rebbeim, I don’t think you can tell someone to scrimp on that.December 28, 2012 6:24 am at 6:24 am #916514
There is mefurash S”A or Rama in hilchos tzadaka that says that we don’t ask a pauper to sell his house and move to a cheaper neighborhood. I’m not in front of a shulchan aruch but I’m sure others can find it pretty easily and quote it properly.
I asked this question when I found out that Har Nof has a nice sized keren tzedaka for residents.December 28, 2012 6:48 am at 6:48 am #916515
naysberg, i love how u write “It would be cruel and unjewish to brush him off and tell him to move elsewhere. And unhalachic.” sounds like the fact that its unhalachic comes as an afterthought. just sayin…..December 28, 2012 7:17 am at 7:17 am #916516
Moving, for starters, can be expensive. Losing ones job to relocate, probably foolish. Lengthening commuting time/increasing the need for a car, costly. Losing (figuratively) family that helps out with babysitting, moral support etc. priceless. Unsolicited advice: never mind…December 28, 2012 7:36 am at 7:36 am #916517
The point is moot. How can “we” throw anyone out of town?December 28, 2012 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #916518
shinina: Like the screenname.December 28, 2012 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #916519
Each individual landlord is not mechuyav to lose money by taking the Ani in or allowing him to stay without paying (Pashut).
Now the question is do we support such a family so that they can stay in the community? I would think yes, but it goes together with all of the rest of Hichis Tzedaka and Kedima. Does he go before paying your child’s tuition? How about telling a Kollel guy to get a job because we need your salary to pay this guy’s rent?
I believe the Shulchan Aruch YD 253:1 applies as well. If someone is asking to be supported in public, then he needs to sell his items first.
uneeq: I could not find it after looking quickly, so I ask if anyone here can help.December 28, 2012 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #916520
i live in an OOT community. by choice. there are many many ppl who move to an OOT community for many reasons, finances being one of them. both the cost of living and the standard of living is drastically different than in NY/NJ area, where i’m from.
oot is not moving to a desert. yes, most of us dont have family here, but the community becomes our family, and my friends become my sisters. AND, if anyone were to have financial difficulties here, it would NEVER come to the case where a community member is begging on the street. do we miss family events? all the time. we go in whenever we can. in an OOT community, you can buy a 3-4 bedroom house for about 140-180k, depending on the size. some might consider that a starter house with 3-5 kids, and when they need it and/or can afford it, they move to a bigger house or renovate. as for kosher food products, some are more than NY/NJ, some less, some the same. ppl are moving out of town in droves because of the high cost of living in NY/NJ. i miss my family and friends, but i would never move back. i cannot fathom how i could afford it.December 28, 2012 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #916521
Kicking out Aniyim sounds like Midat Sodom to me.December 29, 2012 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #916522
A person is obligated to live as simply as possible in order to avoid tkaing tzedaka Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 255:1). Thus, if someone is liivng in an expensive house he should sell it and even live in a small rental apartment. If he is unwilling the community is only obligated to defray his expenses if the paupers are few in relation to their numbers and wealth so as not to deplete the public treaury (Aruch HaShulchan Yoreh Deah 250:4-5). Of course, if the community is wealthy the best thing would be to use their connections to find him a job similar to his previous one or set him up in business (Shulchan Aruch 249:7 and Shach seif katan 7). If this means selling his house and moving into a rental to raise the capital it would seem that he is obligated to do so,December 30, 2012 12:33 am at 12:33 am #916523
In a place like Baltimore, the houses are certainly much cheaper, but remember- cheap houses are cheap for a reason. Baltimore is not the safest community to live in, and there are also not many jobs there at all.December 30, 2012 5:37 am at 5:37 am #916524
Look up the mishna in peah 8:8, which says that we do not force a person to sell their house to receive charity. This is brought down lehalacha in the tur and beis yosef in 253, and finally brought down by the shach in 253:6December 30, 2012 9:51 am at 9:51 am #916525
Uneeq, we don ot paken directly from mishnayot, we pasken from poskim down to the present. There are two dinim here:
1. What the individual is required to do by himself.
The pauper is expected to sell and move to a less expensive place. Obviously, presuming that it is not in a dangerous neighborhood.
2. What others are required to do if he does not do the right thing.
If he refuses the community is only required to pay his expenses if the poor people are few in relation to their numbers and wealth. The best course is to find him a job or set him up in business. While they cannot evict him (unless the community is the landlord) they can tell him to find an alternate source of money.December 30, 2012 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #916526
Is the Halacha that a community must pay a man’s mortgage or rent (regardless how high it is) with Tzedaka funds or is the Halacha that a community must give Tzedaka to pay the basic necessities (food, etc.) to a man with a home, without asking him to sell his home (or rent less expensive elsewhere) to raise funds himself for his basic necessities? (IOW, is the Tzedaka being given to pay for him to keep his home or to pay for his food.)December 30, 2012 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #916527
I clearly stated that the Mishna is brought down lehalacha. I don’t get what bothers you about the source of the poskim.
The pauper is expected to sell and move to a less expensive place.
After you bashed me for pointing out a mishna, you nicely make an assumption and bring it down as halacha psuka. I guess thats how halacha works nowadays.
The halacha is talking about giving food to a poor person and not making him sell his home. However, there is a halacha regarding a person that was rich and became poor, that we support their old lifestyle. I would assume that the mortgage payments for his expensive house would go under that category.
Of course, ask your LOR and don’t rely on my feeble knowledge.December 30, 2012 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #916528
Your lashon of ???? ???? ?????? puts you in the company of Reb Moshe and other great poskim.December 30, 2012 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #916529
A mortgage in the 5 towns might cost you $3000-$4000 a month (Property taxes alone are over $1000 a month)
The reality is just 6 month of raising a mortgage for this would be $24,000.
Its very hard to raise that kind of money and not a very good use of limited Tzedakah money.
And Brooklyn might be a similar amount although the Property taxes would be lower. Houses on Bedford Ave easily are worth over $1 million dollarsDecember 31, 2012 12:47 am at 12:47 am #916530
I’m glad to know that you disagree with the halacha (in determining that it is “not a very good use of limited Tzedakah money.”), zsdad.December 31, 2012 12:48 am at 12:48 am #916531
It is hard, but sometimes a friend will foot the bill. I’ve heard of cases where a friend will pay for the lease for a luxury car, to save the marriage.December 31, 2012 2:53 am at 2:53 am #916532
Its one thing if a family member foots the bill, Sort of like a parent paying the childs rent or the parent or sibling paying the lexus lease, that is a little different. A parent may even go into debt to pay their childrens mortgage or rent
I am talking about there is a finite amount of money available for Tzadekah. If you add up all the potential Tzadekah money available from all orthodox jews and also add in money from sympathetic non-religious jews you will get a number. Whatever that number is I dont know, If you go going to ask people to pay peoples mortgages on houses on Bedford Ave, another Tzadekah is not going to get the money. Perhaps a Yeshiva will not get that donation to pay a rebbe. perhaps a Shul will not be able to make a repair. Perhaps a Kiruv organization will not be able to run an event to attract people. Perhaps Tomche Shabbos will not be able to feed a family on a shabbos. EtcDecember 31, 2012 3:03 am at 3:03 am #916533
This type of tzedaka takes precedence over a shul repair or kiruv outreach.December 31, 2012 4:35 am at 4:35 am #916534
I don’t know the Halacha well but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around what I am hearing. If a big chunk of tzedaka money can go to feeding 100 people and providing clothing, shabbos meals etc, is the money better spent paying one previously rich mans high mortgage? I don’t understand this. I don’t see what is wrong about someone having to down size their life. When I was in 5th grade we moved to a smAller house because the utilities were just too high as were properly taxes. We didn’t ask anyone to foot the bill.December 31, 2012 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #916535
So tell me exactly who says it or what sefer it is that if given a limited amount of Tzedkah money (meaning you only have money for one and not both) One is required to pay the mortgage for someone on Bedford Ave as opposed to feed 100 people via Tomche Shabbos, Fixing a Shul (Money for Tzibur) or giving a Yeshiva money so they can pay the rebbesDecember 31, 2012 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #916536
Zahavasdad and MorahRach,
I agree that there is better use for the money. But it still is valid tzeddakah.
I’m nor sure I agree that there’s a finite number of tzeddakah dollars. I doubt everyone gives 20% or even 10% of their income, and even a higher percentage is often allowed (see the Chofetz Chaim’s Ahavas Chessed for specifics), so often, if a particular cause arises, more money is distributed than would have been otherwise.
I’m sure some tzeddakos lost out because of the amount of money given out to Sandy victims. I have no doubt, though, that the sum of tzeddakah money given out will still be more than had there not been such a need.
Similarly, some money given to support a certain lifestyle would have otherwise been spent on more basic needs, but some would have simply remained in the philanthropists’ accounts.December 31, 2012 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #916537
DY: So end story, if the yeshivos are not paying on time, then you agree that we don’t support the family’s mortgage over giving to the Rabbaim. However, if there are unlimited funds, than we can pay the mortgage (and I will quit my job and join a Kollel).
I believe we agree on that.December 31, 2012 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #916538
It’s not as if I/we are saying to let them fend for themselves on the street. But there are thousands of tzedakas that need our money. Every month my husband and I give maaser money to a Jewish orphanage in israel, chickens for shabbos, tomchei shabbos where we love, and to one of his rebbes yeshivas. We could possibly fall under the category of not having to give based on our incomes since we are really struggling but we give because we know there are people who are in need more than us, and Hashem will always take care of us. I would much rather my money go to people who actually need it for food, clothing, yeshivas in need of funds etc. I can’t understand an argument saying that it is better for the money to go to one persons mortgage so they can continue their lavish lifestyle.December 31, 2012 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #916539
How do you think it would look if someone living in a basement apartment being forced to take the bus because they cant afford a car gave money to Tzedkah and they found out the money was given to pay someones mortgage on Bedford Ave and to pay for his Lexus LeaseDecember 31, 2012 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #916540
ZD I’m in 100% agreementDecember 31, 2012 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #916541
I’d be happy that I fulfilled a mitzvah. If that’s what Hashem wants and told us to do and He said it qualifies as 100% tzedaka and told us to give it to a former rich man to pay his high expenses, then I from my basement apartment will be elated for my tzedaka money to go for that purpose.
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