Tagged: Modern Hebrew VS Loshon haKodesh
December 1, 2022 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #2143968
You’d be hard pressed to find someone in Lakewood that speaks Hebrew.December 1, 2022 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #2143975December 1, 2022 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #2143994🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
CS – ha ha, and I took it to imply he was an employee with “backstage” accessDecember 1, 2022 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #2143996
You’d be hard pressed in Israel to find someone who speaks lashon kodesh; let them try translating piyutim, see how far they getDecember 1, 2022 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #2144004Reb EliezerParticipant
It says in Demai 4, that Jews don’t lie on Shabbos, so we can speak lashon hakodesh that we should not lie with.December 1, 2022 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #2144005
No I didn’t
I mean um oops what are you talking about?
Seriously though don’t quit your day job to go troll hunting full time, you are getting rustyDecember 1, 2022 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #2144038
@syag, noticed the complete lack of response????December 1, 2022 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #2144055
@ YO a/k/a Ubiq, your mistake was when you responded to your alter ego before it got published.December 1, 2022 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #2144059
Instead of saying “U” why don’t you come out with it?
editedDecember 1, 2022 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #2144067
@ YO a/k/a ………. you did the job for meDecember 1, 2022 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #2144081
Ok time to fess up I created a third profile named “common saychel” with which to call people trolls (I was too embarrassed to do it under one of my other names)
Now I accidentally outed one of my other names using my common saychel sn.
This is all getting confusing mods maybe time to deactivate my CS account lDecember 1, 2022 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #2144089
Maybe all the anti mesorah, pro haskalah people are just one abstract entity of the sitra achra manifestedDecember 1, 2022 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #2144107
It’s not too late to go back to your roots and join us.
Do teshuvaDecember 1, 2022 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #2144112
A report of one Sephardi school in their native country:
classes every day (including Shabbat when the only change was not writing)
main focus – mikra, not tosfos.
A person who was in such school until 12 y.o. in his later years was quoting Tanach by heart. That is, if someone starts saying a pasuk from anywhere, he would be able to finish it.December 1, 2022 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #2144126
Who says Tosfos is better than learning Mikra?December 1, 2022 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #2144153
Yabia, I brought the info, I am not saying that Tosfos is better. In fact, Maharal criticizes the approach of teaching pilpul to young kids before they master the basic material.
this is just how these Sephardim learnt, and I think this is relatively representative. Even when learning Gemora or Halakha from Sephardi sources, I am struck with how much closer to the text and reality they typically are, addressing the core problem first, rather than looking for some outlying conditions. Generalizing, of course. And, again, this worked great before Sephardim needed to address modernity. I don’t think this straight approach learnign whole Mikra first works well when people are confronted daily with complicated issues.December 1, 2022 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #2144167
Aaq, chazal(medrash rabba, mishlei, perek 1) say that if someone comes to shomayim with only mikra, Hashem turns his face from him….and
ושרי גיהנם מתגברים בו כזאבי ערב, ונוטלין אותו ומשליכין אותו לתוכה.
Ministers of gehinnom attack him like wolves, take him, drag him into gehinnom.
If someone comes with 2 or 3 sidrei mishnah, Hashem says “my son” (notice how He does NOT say my son regarding mikra), why have you not learned all the halachos)(mishnah is called halachoa a lot), for such a person, sometimes Hashem will have mercy on him, and other times, they will drag him into gehinnom too.
If someone has mishnah, then Hashem says why you haven’t learned toras cohanim(sifra)
Someone who learned sifra, Hashem asks why have you not learned…
…chamisha chumshei torah!! The answer is that once you’ve learned all the mishnayos, chumash is not the same as when you’re just able to ratttle off pesukim.
Then it says if someone learned all of that, why has he not learned hagadah, then talmud, then eventually kabalah.
This, by the way, is brought lehalacha in the shulchan aruch harav.
But but but …why is gemara more important than mikra? Well, we see from here that it most definitely is. Not only that, but someone being proficient in mikra is not even called Hashem’s son; Hashem turns His face from him in disgust! Why? Because this is all you think my Torah ia? Just the pesukim?December 1, 2022 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #2144168
Had to throw down the gauntlet thereDecember 1, 2022 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #2144183
Avira, what I think these Sephardim (and Maharal) were holding by – learning mikra as kids first. The person I mentioned was a Rav in a golus community afterwards, so he did learn more than mikra either at that school or later. I’ll try to find out more details. But also I think you kind of assume that the school was “the education”. hopefully, most students did not go to meet their Maker right after graduation. So, they would learn the rest later on. Persian merchants were more likely to afford – 3-hour-a-day work and learning the rest than most ashkenazim. (Another sephardi community I heard of worked for several weeks a year, travelling to pick up some carpets and then selling them to support themselves for the rest of the year).December 1, 2022 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #2144188
And I agree with going back to mikra after other learning, although the simple psak I got years ago from Lakewood is to learn all 3 parts (mikra/mishna/gemora) in such a way that you finish all together by 120, and Gemora is larger .. I was not old enough for kaballah, so not sure where that fits in.
But notice that your midrash does not mention gemora at all, sifra is not it. Tzarich iyun.December 1, 2022 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #2144196
Aaq, it mentions talmud, definitely. Anyways i agree that children need to learn mikra first, as chazal say ben chomesh lemikra…but the discussion here is about adults who know mikra very welll but are am haaratzim otherwise. Hashem turns his face to them and doesn’t call them His son.December 4, 2022 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #2144589
“You’d be hard pressed to find someone in Lakewood that speaks Hebrew.”
Completely false statement.December 5, 2022 9:33 am at 9:33 am #2144855ToShmaParticipant
Someone should make a list of errors between Loshon Hakodesh and modern Hebrew. And mean just the classic מאי ריבה, ריבה פירות…December 21, 2022 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #2150383
When I was in Mirrer Yeshiva, they went out of their way to keep us from learning to speak Hebrew. They told us that Ivrit was only spoken by the non-religious Jews in Israel and that Ivrit was an impermissible version of Loshon Hakodesh, which was only spoken by the greatest tzaddikim in Tanach. We were expected to know Yiddish (which I did). The Yeshiva refused to provide a Hebrew language course so we could take the Hebrew Regents exam. They even wouldn’t mention Yom Ha’atzmaut.December 21, 2022 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #2150489
I spent time in the mir as wellDecember 21, 2022 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #2150487
5t, the only part about your post which is true is that mir doesn’t acknowledge yom ha’atzmaut, same as any other non-european Hebrew nationalist yeshiva. plenty of the talmidim, especially in the last few years, speak Hebrew, because they’re sefardi and their families came from Israel.
Most rebbein in most yeshivos teach tha5 ivrit is no good. Most offer hebrew as a regents test; I’m pretty sure mir does too.
The shiurim are all in English. I have no idea where you got the jdea that they expect you to speak Yiddish. Mir, like every other Brooklyn Yeshiva, translates chumash and mishnayos into Yiddish, but it’s downplayed as time goes on.
I spent some time there. Your post sounds like something out of the NYT.December 21, 2022 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #2150544
Maybe he’s older than you.
But I think he means the Mir in Israel.December 21, 2022 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #2150525
Nedarim analyzes various expressions according to lashon bnei adam, including different meanings at different times and places, some of which are shown to be different from how a word is used in Tanach. Nobody seems to raise objections and considers all local dialects legitimate. Any of the amoraim or later commentators object to “illegitimate” version of loshon hakoidesh?December 22, 2022 12:25 am at 12:25 am #2150668ujmParticipant
“They even wouldn’t mention Yom Ha’atzmaut.”
They wouldn’t mention Christmas either.December 22, 2022 12:25 am at 12:25 am #2150659
He discussed regents, that’s only in the US.
Mir in Israel includes the larger mir, for Americans, and Mir brachfeld, for israelis. Americans speak english, and the Israelis speak hebrew.
Rav Osher arieli gives shiur in yiddish, and I’ve heard him. I don’t know about the other shiurim. In mir brachfeld, the shiurim are in ivrit.December 22, 2022 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #2150986
Avira: I was in Mirrer Yeshiva from 1978 to 1982. I’m sure things have changed in 40 years. For example, I’m sure the current principal of the high school doesn’t beat up talmidim anymore, like the one in my day did.
My post was meant to say what it was like when I was there. I have no idea what it’s like there now.December 22, 2022 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #2151050DaMosheParticipant
Aveirah, you mentioned R’ Levi Yitzchak earlier in this topic. One thing I do know, is that he always looked for the good in people.
If he were around today, and heard someone using inappropriate words in Ivrit, his comment would likely be, “Hashem, look how amazing your children are! Even those who struggle, still use your holy language, because they feel connected to you! Forgive the misuse of the language, and deepen the relationship!”December 22, 2022 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #2151023
In the 80s, most yeshivos had some rebbeim who gave petch; it sounds more like you just didn’t like the yeshiva, which was and is extremely successful in producing bnei torahDecember 23, 2022 10:44 am at 10:44 am #2151076
Aviary – giving “petch” was child abuse. Don’t kid yourself. You didn’t need to give “petch” to help a boy learn. My sons are now learning in Eretz Yisroel, one in his third year. They attended a Yeshiva where they didn’t give “petch”. BH a lot of fine boys came from that Yeshiva who now are in chinuch without ever having had “petch”.
And I’m not talking about “petch”. I’m talking about sadism. I’m talking about the principal who once hit a kid so hard he knocked him unconscious and an ambulance had to be called. I’m talking about a rebbe who relishes verbally abusing children, calling them “ferd” and “hoont” and putting snow down their backs for laughs.
You say that many Bnei Torah came from that Yeshiva. I personally know three classmates who went off the derech after graduation because of the abuse they received. Does that make it worth the “petch”? And now you’ll tell me these three probably had bad parents or were going off the derech anyway. You’d be flat out wrong. All three were from yeshivish Flatbush families.
Deal with it.December 23, 2022 10:48 am at 10:48 am #2151111
Damoshe, the berditchiver was melamed zchus on people with the din of yisroel. People who are not frum weren’t a thing back then, and you don’t find that he was melamed zchus on reform or maskilim.
Israelis don’t speak Hebrew because they feel close to Hashem. They speak it because that’s how they’re raised and that’s the language around them, just like American jews don’t speak English because we feel a solidarity with king George of EnglandDecember 24, 2022 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #2151143anonymous JewParticipant
The rabbis in my yeshiva ketana routinely beat us ( no patching) up . I’m talking punching, slapping and kicking. It inspired neither learning nor respect but did inspire FEAR .December 24, 2022 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #2151148
Three who go off in a class of around 30? That’s the current otd rate…December 24, 2022 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #2151149
I wonder why most mir alumni send their kids there, with 3 generational families being the norm in mir, chaim berlin and torah vodaas; guess they all want their kids to be “abused” – sorry, i just don’t believe someone’s testimony in an online forum against the community itself which loves the institutionDecember 24, 2022 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #2151218
what about the story of Berdichever and a guy who was smoking on shabbos?December 24, 2022 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #2151241
Aaq, no idea; maybe it was a one time aveirah or it was not in public, but even if it’s in public and he did it routinely, he wasn’t an apikores or maskilDecember 28, 2022 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #2152153takahmamashParticipant
The short answer is yes, all Yehudim should know Hebrew. IY”H Mashiach will be here before you know it, y’all will be moving here, and how do you expect to find jobs here without speaking the language?December 28, 2022 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #2152156
Takah, we aren’t going to have to work when moshiach comes – we’re all going to sit and learn. A better preparation would be for all the people who lack learning ability to learn how to learn and develop an enjoyment for it.
Our work will be done for us by the goyim who are zocheh to serve us, as stated openly in chazal.December 28, 2022 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #2152205MarxistParticipant
“I wonder why most mir alumni send their kids there, with 3 generational families being the norm in mir, chaim berlin and torah vodaas”
There are a lot of 3 generational families in Torah Vodaas but it certainly is not the norm.December 28, 2022 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #2152213
Avira > Takah, we aren’t going to have to work when moshiach comes – we’re all going to sit and learn
I recall Rambam says that the main change will be that Jews will not be subjugated to others. So, we will all work for our own businesses.December 28, 2022 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #2152225
All yidden, ESPECIALLY observant ones, should know Hebrew. It’s totally crazy and moronic that I have to say that. It’s like saying “every med student needs to learn how to osculate”, or “every truck driver needs to know how to break up his big rig”. It’s LITERALLY their job. Plus how do you go through modern shutim? Anyone who makes this a political thing has an interruption in their Mesorah.December 28, 2022 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #2152176dry sense of humorParticipant
lashon kodesh and hebrew are diff.
ask the anti-zionist pplDecember 29, 2022 11:07 am at 11:07 am #2152245
Aaq, the rambam holds that there won’t be constant nisim when moshiach comes. “Olam keminhago noheg.” He doesn’t get involved in who will do the work.
Most don’t go with that rambam anyways. They ask on him from the huge amount of medrashim that don’t fit with it at least on face value.
Either way, my point about it being far more important to learn how to learn is true even if Jewish men will have to work at the time, because the main occupation will be in learningDecember 29, 2022 11:08 am at 11:08 am #2152246
YO, I’m not fluent in modern fake Hebrew. When i go through a teshuva which uses an unfamiliar word…i look it up. No big deal.
Poskim who write in complete modern fake hebrew aren’t exactly required reading to find a halacha.December 29, 2022 11:08 am at 11:08 am #2152254LakewoodscoopParticipant
Why did this thread get over 96 responses?December 29, 2022 11:10 am at 11:10 am #2152260
What’s called knowing Hebrew? I can the texts. I speak Spanish better.
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