November 17, 2009 9:23 am at 9:23 am #590818
what do think Should BMG have a say in lakewood politics.
Either YES because lets face the fact the city is based on the Yeshiva.
Or NO they are not a kehila and don”t do a thing for the kehla.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?November 17, 2009 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #824042
Who do you mean by BMG? The whole student body? Rabbi Aharon Kotler the CEO? The hanhala? The vaad?November 17, 2009 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #824043
why do you get to decide what they should do?
Yes they should be involced in the local politics. A)they can B)75-80% of the town is there because of the yeshiva.November 17, 2009 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #824044pushtMember
The largest employer in town, usually has a say in local politics, like it or not. Is their a larger employer than BMG (residents who employ cleaning ladies dont count as employers).
from the Rules:”One user name per person. Period!”November 17, 2009 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #824045gavra_at_workParticipant
Last time I checked all citizens have the right to vote. As such, whomever is in charge gets a say as long as they are a citizen, just like everyone else in the town who registers to vote. 🙂November 17, 2009 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #824046Just-a-guyMember
Not sure I understand the question. People have freedom of speech and the ability to vote. If people want to follow a particular Rabbi or Rosh Yeshiva’s advice that’s fine, if a Rabbi, or Rosh Yeshiva wants to speak out on a certain issue that’s fine too. Havve a say? They should have a say in accordance with our laws and principles of democracy, of course.November 17, 2009 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #824047tzippiMember
Well, why don’t you tell us what you think exactly?
Any guidelines for this discussion so that it won’t immediately devolve into lashon hara and be closed?November 17, 2009 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #824048
I think they should, as they are a huge entity in the lakewood area. The yeshiva for itself, should look out for its best interests.
However, that does not mean that bochurim attending BMG, nor the kollel couples affiliated with BMG, nor the families in and around lakewood should be held to what the yeshiva wants. Everyone is capable and should make their own decisions based on what they perceive is best for them (as seen in this past gubernatorial election).November 17, 2009 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #824049
OK i will rephrase the question
For all those that live in Lakewood they are aware that when BMG wants something they get it,
now that might mean on taxpayers expense or interest, for example if funding goes for this it won”t go for something else which might benefit the town people more,
so should the people of Lakewood let things go as they do know [more or less]or do they have the right to protest.
Either YES because lets face the fact the city is based on the Yeshiva.
Or NO they are not a kehila and don”t do a thing for the kehila.
NO LOSHON HORA PLEASE OR PERSONAL ATTACKSNovember 17, 2009 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #824050artchillParticipant
1] BMG does not represent the totality of the city of Lakewood. The taxpayers of Lakewood have the right to voice their opposition and input to where their tax dollars should go.
2] BMG as a non-profit entity has no legal right to involve itself in politics. They cannot endorse a candidate, or they stand to lose their tax exempt status.
BMG might be mammoth enterprise but the city is no longer based solely on it. So, YES people could protest when they see BMG act like Robin Hood. Robbing from the rich to pay the poor is not Tzeddakah, it’s Chammas.November 17, 2009 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #824051
They have a right to tell people how to vote, and people have a right to ask their Daas Torah if they should go along with it.November 17, 2009 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #824052RaisedEyebrowMember
NO- they are not a kehila and don’t do a thing for the kehila
NO- they are not a kehila and don’t do a thing for the kehila
NO- they are not a kehila and don’t do a thing for the kehilaNovember 17, 2009 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #824053pookieMember
bmg is lakewood!November 18, 2009 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #824054
why is BMG Lakewood?November 18, 2009 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #824055
Lakewood started out as a resort town with a frum population that was unrelated to the yeshiva. In time, the yeshiva grew to the point that it became THE kehilla of Lakewood. Now the community is growing in directions other than the yeshiva. Everyone should have a personal rav and ask him. The yeshiva has a right to push what’s best for it. If it bothers you, there are plenty of other Jewish communities.November 18, 2009 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #824056
They can not force people to vote. they at worst make suggestions and people follow thats not “Robin Hood” thats democracy and the power of a voting-bloc.November 18, 2009 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #824057WolfishMusingsParticipant
They have a right to tell people how to vote
IANAL so perhaps I’m ignorant here, but wouldn’t doing that jeopardize their tax-exempt status?
The WolfNovember 18, 2009 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #824058
Wolfish, there are many loopholes around that one. There is a “Lakewood vaad” which isn’t officially the yeshiva, but represents the yeshiva’s interests. The yeshiva itself never officially issues a proclamation.November 18, 2009 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #824059mazcaMember
People have to have Hakarat Hatov because if it wouldn’t be for the yeshiva Lakewood wouldn’t be the town it is now. So I think they can have a say.November 18, 2009 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #824062
This issue has being boiling for some years now,
most recently the Oilem decided to feif un the Vaad Voting for Christie
There are many more issue BOILING HOT not to be posted on the Internet regarding this question of power
I had this question then.
And so i decided to hear the Oilems opinionNovember 19, 2009 4:46 am at 4:46 am #824063
Getzel, Oilem goilem.
Clearly many rabbonim felt that one should vote for Christie. Not because of taxes as much as for moral reasons.November 19, 2009 11:29 am at 11:29 am #824064
OK the rabbonim only later came out to vote Christie because of moral issues but the oilem was ed up of the taxes and were tax money goes.November 19, 2009 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #824065
Because of their size and the fact that they’re directly involved/affected by the happenings they -should- get involved. however, if they lose site of the communities needs or only care for the needs of a few instead of the klal then people will turn on them and not follow their suggestions.
If there’s enough of a divide or they (hypothetically) alienate the people that are working so they start giving less to the local mosdos, it will change.*
*hypothetical example not saying thats the case.November 19, 2009 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #824066
Were are not talking just about Mosdos receiving tax money it”s more the private Baal habeas or homeowner or regular guy,
for example when was the last time the roads were repaved?November 19, 2009 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #824067mybatMember
Getzel, you should see the potholes here in mexico(in very good neighborhoods) and we all pay a lot in taxes. So if your taxes go to help torah then you are lucky.November 20, 2009 3:15 am at 3:15 am #824068
The yeshiva is stopping the roads from being paved?
I dont live in Lakewood but come on, be real.November 20, 2009 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #824069
You asked is The yeshiva is stopping the roads from being paved?
Let”s face the fact there is a a budget there is only x amount of money
the decision has to be made were to use the money.November 20, 2009 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #824070
If you live in Lakewood, then you face the fact that the yeshiva is the dominant player in the area. You moved to Lakewood due to the Torah atmosphere caused by BMG’s existence. You can’t then go on and criticize the yeshiva for encouraging people to vote in a way that benefits it. Unions do the same thing all the time.November 20, 2009 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #824071
Actually I know of a lot of baal habatim that moved to lakewood for the cheap housing and the jewish community (which was there before BMG), not for BMG. Therefore, if you moved there for reasons other than to be a part of BMG, you have every right to “criticize the yeshiva for encouraging people to vote in a way that benefits it”.November 20, 2009 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #824072Mezonos MavenMember
The 35 Jews who lived in Lakewood before Rav Ahron? 99.999% of those who moved there in the last 50 years, did so due to BMG.
EDITEDNovember 20, 2009 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #824073
“99.999% of those who moved there in the last 50 years, did so due to BMG.”
That might have been true 15 years ago, or even ten years ago. But now (in the past decade) most couples go there because it is a thriving jewish community, much of that thanks to BMG (not arguing that it made the town in to a thriving jewish community). However, most families go there for the cheap housing, for the camaraderie of their friends that moved there. NOT because they want anything to do with BMG. BMG, might be the nucleus of the jewish town, but if you go 10 blocks away from BMG, then you will find a plethora of families that want nothing to do with BMG.
EDITEDNovember 22, 2009 3:01 am at 3:01 am #824074
Jaw22, if you move to Alaska, you can’t complain about the cold, as it’s a conscious decision. If you move to Cambridge, Massachusetts, you can’t complain about the outsize influence that Harvard and MIT have on the area. There are many townships in New Jersey with frum communities (Edison/Highland Park, Teaneck, Passaic, Cherry Hill, etc). If you decide to pick Lakewood, then you are picking a town dominated by a 6,000+ member yeshiva, and where many residents are current or former members of the yeshiva. BMG’s influence comes with living in Lakewood. Lakewood is a thriving Jewish community ONLY because of the yeshiva. If you don’t like it, there are many other townships and cities in New Jersey who would love it if frum people moved in. But Lakewood is BMG territory. If you don’t like it, live elsewhere.November 22, 2009 11:23 am at 11:23 am #824075
You are making a mistake by saying
“If you decide to pick Lakewood, then you are picking a town dominated by a 6,000+ member yeshiva, and where many residents are current or former members of the yeshiva. BMG’s influence comes with living in Lakewood”
The fact is many of the 6000+ don”t want to pay the taxes they are paying so you can”t count them in the majority.November 23, 2009 2:23 am at 2:23 am #824076
Getzel, nobody likes paying taxes. It’s a necessary evi. but as long as people have hakaras hatov for BMG, many will vote against their economic interest to (ostensibly) further Klal Yisroel’s spiritual interests, which is done by strengthening BMG.November 23, 2009 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #824077
I would definitely agree with you, that if you moved to Lakewood, than BMG is part of it as well. Therefore, you can not complain that there are so many “black hatters” in the community or any other petty complaint.
However, that does not mean you have to support BMG or agree with them in any manner. If you want to go and do something your way, you should be able. This is a democratic country we live in. And just as BMG is allowed all the freedom to operate and become a leading torah institution, so too a person who moves there can be anti-BMG and exercise that right as well.
Would you stop a non-jewish person from moving into Lakewood if they so choose? What happens then? Do they, too, need to toe the line that BMG wants. I would say no. So too, by a regular jewish family that likes the jewish atmosphere of Lakewood but does not agree with BMG and their policies, they should not have to “toe the line” according to what BMG wants.November 23, 2009 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #824078
They don’t have to toe the line, but they can’t complain about BMG’s influence.November 23, 2009 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #824079
The majority of the town is there because of the yeshiva and wants what they do. Even the people that didnt attend BMG and moved recently because houses were “affordable -there” and the yeshivos were good moved because the yeshiva is set up there and it became a jewish community.
Like it or not you have to pay taxes. blaming the roads on the yeshiva is stupidity.
The letters in the yated this week were laughable, 2 examples one person wrote “that someone from the vaad said taxes other places in NJ are higher and letter writer feels that shouldn’t be someone from the vaads response his answer should be we know this is unacceptable and will do what we can to lower it”. second letter “garbagemen and a few police officers dont cost that much”
Firstly when you own a house you pay taxes. once you understand and accept that you can discuss getting it lowered but to act as if it’s unjustifiable that you need to pay taxes get a reality check.
Secondly, “garbagemen” salary is the least costly aspect of garbage removal. A neighborhood that 10 years ago had 20 single family homes and today has 50 houses with apartments cost much more to upkeep. Again taxes are part of home ownership.November 23, 2009 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #824080Mezonos MavenMember
Actually they can complain about BMG’s influence. But it is tough nuggies on them. BMG’s powerful influence in Lakewood is here to stay.November 23, 2009 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #824081
MM and Jothar:
So we agree that one can go against BMG. As of right now, BMG has the power to sway people in the community to what they want.
However, if those individuals that are against some of the ideas that BMG has, gain enough influence to oppose BMG, then they should be allowed.
And they should be able to voice their ideas as well. Even now, they should able to voice their opposition, no matter how small a voice (called a minority opinion).November 23, 2009 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #824082
The question was Should BMG be involved not should minorities.
Obviously everyone has a right to be involoved.November 23, 2009 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #824083
You are right. So my answer, as previously stated, is that BMG has a right to look out for its interests just like anyone else. That does not mean that if they say something than “the 6,000” individuals associated with them, the many families that are alumni of BMG, and the families that have nothing to do with it should follow what they say. They are like a corporation; they should have one voice, state their point, the reasoning behind it, and let every individual decide for his or herself what they want to do.November 23, 2009 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #824084
JAW22, clearly someone there who doesn’t accept the yeshiva’s authority over them will have no problem voting against the yeshiva’s interests. The question in this thread was “should they have a say”, not “should they have the only say”.November 23, 2009 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #824085Just-a-guyMember
I still don’t understand what the question is. What is meany by a “say”? Its a free country, you can say anything. You may or may not persuade people to agree with you. Everyone has one vote, and a non-human enity such as they Yeshiva has no vote, but the individuals affiliated with/running the Yeshiva have the ability to voice their opinion and possible persuade others how to vote. Every organization, be it a health insurance company or a Yeshiva, advocates for its interests.April 26, 2010 6:04 am at 6:04 am #824086
The Lakewood VAAD has fallen out of favor with some members of the Lakewood community as of recent years. They failed to rally the support of the Lakewood community behind Jon Corzine in 2009. If they fail to rally the support of the community behind Senator Singer their endorsement will become virtually worthless.
WHAT DO YOU HOLD?April 26, 2010 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #824087SJSinNYCMember
I don’t know much about Lakewood politics. Is Singer condoning waste of government resources and spending? You make it sound like Herskowitz in an amazing candidate who will trim waste. Although, I’m not sure whats wrong with the Blue Claws…April 26, 2010 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #824088seeallsidesParticipant
YES BMG has a right to say what goes on in this town – we are all here because of BMG and we should all kiss their toes for giving us such a beautiful torahdige seviva, yeshiva, growth opportunities,etc. – and their job is no picnic
There will always be some loose cannons saying that they can do better and that this is unfair and that is unfair – and believe me as a taxpayer i am extremely sympathetic to their arguments BUT they don’t really know the whole picture, or have the experience to deal with the ‘whole’ issue – They are always welcome to come to the yeshiva and discuss their issues -but to break up the community just breaks up our clout – which is just plain stupid.
Let’s remember, especially in these days of sefira – that achdus is our only successful method – and machlokes is unfortunately the ‘anti’ success.April 26, 2010 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #824090cherrybimParticipant
seeallsides – “we are all here because of BMG and we should all kiss their toes for giving us such a beautiful torahdige seviva, yeshiva, growth opportunities,etc.”
And let’s also give well deserved hakaras hatov to the vibrant frum community of Lakewood and their Rabbonim and yesivas who welcomed Rav Aharon into Lakewood and provided support and opportunity for BMG’s growth.April 26, 2010 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #824091bptParticipant
Should they have a say in BMG politics? Sure!
Should they have a say in Lakewood politics? Only the tax paying BMGers. But should the senior folks be able to get the 5000+ learning boys out to the polls to swing something in one direction or another? Well, that’s what the Al Sharptons of the world to, and we know how much we appreciate that.April 26, 2010 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #824092Mayan_DvashParticipant
By “have a say” do you mean final arbiter (as in everyone must vote _____)?
;April 27, 2010 6:16 am at 6:16 am #824093
i mean that if they should endorse a candidate no one shall stand up and protest their decision even if it means hurting the rest of the city
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